Freedom Chief Pilot gets Mesa F/O fired

[WSurf]

For example... Before 9/11 you could pour baking soda in an envelope and mail it to your friend marked "Bio Hazard" as a joke. Now that would get you a few days of interrogation by the FBI.

Nice example! Thats really close to the same thing! Too Funny!

 

[h25b]

Nice example! Thats really close to the same thing! Too Funny!

So I guess you'd say that the same thing would've have happened to this FO before the whole Freedom fiasco went down ?? It was an over the top example of how situations can change to cause drastically different results to transpire from the same event..

Thanks, another example of how common sense is wasted when used in the Regionals Forum.

 

[81Horse]

" ...You call him into chief pilots office question him about it, and tell him please don't do it again. Is it unprofessional? Yes! Is it terms for getting fired? Hell No! ...

But if the guy's on probation, they can fire him -- pretty much at will -- and there's little the MEC can do about it. And where was the captain in this incident? Curious to know what his role was during and after.

 

[pianoman]

EVEN IF HE'S ON PROBATION, THE COMPANY CAN ALWAYS FIRE WHOEVER THEY WANT, FOR WHATEVER REASON THEY WANT.

All any union (ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, etc) can do is take it to arbitration and plead the pilot's case for getting his job back. They can help him and give him representation, and hopefully back pay, but they can't stop the initial axe.

 

[81Horse]

True, pianoman.

 

[FN FAL]

If you guys keep acting like truck drivers, management will think you're bucking for a pay raise.

 

[FedEx1]

I didn't say he SHOULD be fired, punished or anything.

I was simply stating that management had a LEGAL reason to boot the guy- as petty and small as it was. They look for things like that! SO just watch yourselves, is all. Sheesh.

 

[81Horse]

I was simply stating that management had a LEGAL reason to boot the guy- as petty and small as it was. They look for things like that! SO just watch yourselves, is all. Sheesh.

Bingo! Their MEC/LEC reps should be telling them this, too. It's hard to retrieve a terminated pilot's job and back pay through grievance and arbitration if he/she did, in fact, give the company cause.

 

[D.sanchez]

Oh, you haven't heard...

You see that is no longer required. In today's new world of kids flying airplanes this is not needed. A scab doesn't have to cross a picket line anymore. Heck, there doesn't even have to be a picket line !!

Sorry, I just noticed that you're having the same problem I was a while back and thought I'd explain it to you.

Thank you h25b for "explaining" the situation to us. Alot of us on these boards have a problem with your explaination. You seem to lack the intellectual capacity to understand that the actions of Freedom A listers or HoJet scum bags rises to the level of scabbing. While I agree the Freedom/Hojet's guys didn't cross a picket line, is it really that difficult to see these people possess a scab mentality? That they act like scabs, stab their fellow pilot's in the back and run to suck on JO's/Hullie's unit? Perhaps the ALPA definition of a scab I've cut and pasted from another post will help you. Think of this next time you "explain" to people that the freedom-a-listers aren't scabs.

ALPA's definition:

A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor disputes and
walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his and your profession,
often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term, nor does he think of anything other
then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives, careers, opportunities and professions at the drop of
a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a decent Job. He steals that which others earned at the bargaining
table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant - ruining lives, jobs and careers.

-Walking over the backs of working trying to maintian decent wages and working conditions.

- Helps management to destroy his and your preofession.

That seams pretty fitting to me.
​

 

[FR8mastr]

Sanchez,

Well said!! I guess this is one time ALPA actually gets it.

 

[A350]

Mr. Sanchez:

I could apply you "definition" to every regional pilot hired or upgraded since the majors started furloughing their pilots post 9/11.

Before you go off the deep end defending anyone.....I don't consider them scabs. However the hundreds of 500 hour guys getting jobs at regional carriers couldn't get a job at a commuter flying a 1900 or a Shorts 360 even 10 years ago. They got a job they couldn't get under normal circumstances, and they took advantage of labor disputes (pilots fighting for their lives in the Chapter 11 process) as they were trying to maintain decent wages and living conditions. Did they help destroy his and your profession? You be the judge. Further, they did it under the watchful eye of ALPA.

He doesn't think long term either.....let us not forget that if the minions of regional pilots had refused the jets and larger equipment they might have a job with a mainline carrier on the mainline list and the opportunity to fly larger equipment.....now they get the chance to work for lower wages and working conditions for ever, as the mainline carriers will never be the same. To top it off, we now have regional pilots fighting with regional pilots. It just keeps getting better.

I don't consider regional pilots scabs.....because a scab crosses a picket line. I like how you conveniently left that part in the small print.

A350

 

[taloft]

And in other news, I heard the pot recently got fired for calling the kettle black. The exact text of the conversation was "Black!". The pot explained his actions to management by saying he thought it was a different kettle and that it was a friend of his.

 

[h25b]

Mr. Sanchez:

I could apply you "definition" to every regional pilot hired or upgraded since the majors started furloughing their pilots post 9/11.

Before you go off the deep end defending anyone.....I don't consider them scabs. However the hundreds of 500 hour guys getting jobs at regional carriers couldn't get a job at a commuter flying a 1900 or a Shorts 360 even 10 years ago. They got a job they couldn't get under normal circumstances, and they took advantage of labor disputes (pilots fighting for their lives in the Chapter 11 process) as they were trying to maintain decent wages and living conditions. Did they help destroy his and your profession? You be the judge. Further, they did it under the watchful eye of ALPA.

He doesn't think long term either.....let us not forget that if the minions of regional pilots had refused the jets and larger equipment they might have a job with a mainline carrier on the mainline list and the opportunity to fly larger equipment.....now they get the chance to work for lower wages and working conditions for ever, as the mainline carriers will never be the same. To top it off, we now have regional pilots fighting with regional pilots. It just keeps getting better.

I don't consider regional pilots scabs.....because a scab crosses a picket line. I like how you conveniently left that part in the small print.

A350

I to love how he conveniently shuffled that line to the end and made it unbelievably too small to read. For those that can't understand, this is the part that says one has to in fact cross a picket line to be a scab.

At least you get it... And I can't even read the ALPA definition of a scab and figure out how it applies to a GJ pilot. If I were to read it in the same manner these idiots do, like you, I could just as easily call most regional jet pilots scabs.

By the way... If they so easily meet the ALPA definition of a scab then how come they are not on the ALPA Master Scab List ??? This is a line from the web site that the GJ pilot bashing baffoons like to advertise...

"These pilots may not technically be SCABS, due to Federal law limiting when pilot groups can strike, however, they are "Virtual SCABS" and deserve the same treatment that any SCAB should receive....."

So it basically boils down to they are scabs because they say so. Even though they fit absolutely no universally recognized definition of one.. And just to recap, the TSA pilots are mad because they were unable to gain the additional flying that was going to another air carrier operating certificate in order to circumvent the scope clause language set forth in American Airlines' APA collective bargaining agreement. NICE...

So to use the ultra-simplified logic of your average person that calls a GJ pilot a scab, they are just upset that they can't participate in screwing over the American Airlines' pilots and their CBA...

A SCAB is someone who crosses ila picket line, plain and simple, nothing more and nothing less. Some of the "kids flying jets" as h25b put it in another thread need to read a book or two about the hard times of the late 70s & early 80s before they start throwing that word around.

GJ pilots are not scabs, nor are Freedom A pilots. While neither one ever crossed a picket line, they are pilots who accepted employment at an alter-ego airline and weakened the negotiating position of the carrier they were spun off of. They are selfish, despicable people who benefitted from other's sacrifices in collective bargaining to screw their colleagues so they could "get theirs", but they ARE NOT SCABS.

At least we agree on a few things...

 

[BoilerUP]

A SCAB is someone who crosses ila picket line, plain and simple, nothing more and nothing less. Some of the "kids flying jets" as h25b put it in another thread need to read a book or two about the hard times of the late 70s & early 80s before they start throwing that word around.

Go Jet pilots are not scabs, nor are Freedom A pilots. While neither one ever crossed a picket line, they are pilots who accepted employment at an alter-ego airline and weakened the negotiating position of the carrier they were spun off of. They are selfish, despicable people who benefitted from other's sacrifices in collective bargaining to screw their colleagues so they could "get theirs", but they ARE NOT SCABS.

 

[FR8mastr]

definitions change over time, and so should our definition of SCAB. The ALPA version fits. There is a whole paragraph of what a scab is, but some of you cant see it because of 1 line. Companies no longer need to go to a strike as they simply start another. If you dont see that then stop reading this now, as your opinion will never be changed.
In times past a company would hire scabs to replace striking employees driving a truck for example. To do this the scabs would have to "cross the picket line" to get to these trucks.
Now, the company just buys new trucks or sells the trucks already there to a "NEW" company doing the exact same job with new employees, and a new location. There was never a need for the new employees to cross a picket line as the company did this prior to a strike being called.
The result is the same thing
Regional pilots as a group do not meet the standard of directly replacing work. Most of that work was contracted out with the blessings of the other pilot groups affected. There are however several new companies that have been created without the blessings of the group affected, in fact it is fought tooth and nail. That is the difference between your standard regional pilot and a SCAB pilot.
Mangement has changed the rules with this new tactic, we must change also or they will keep doing the same thing with impunity.

 

[h25b]

In times past a company would hire scabs to replace striking employees driving a truck for example. To do this the scabs would have to "cross the picket line" to get to these trucks.
Now, the company just buys new trucks or sells the trucks already there to a "NEW" company doing the exact same job with new employees, and a new location. There was never a need for the new employees to cross a picket line as the company did this prior to a strike being called.
The result is the same thing.

Great, you can single handedly decree a change to a long standing union term. Must be nice to have that authority.

So let us move on to your example and perhaps you could explain to us all how it applies to GJ's ?? TSA has not added the "exact same job" over at GJ's. They aren't even the same "trucks." It's an entirely different aircraft. The GJ planes aren't even at a new location. Furthermore, I must have missed the part where TSA sold the Embraer products that the TSA guys were flying. Which means I also missed the part where the corresponding pilots got furloughed....

Do you guys just make up this stuff (and I would rather use another word beginning with "S") as you go ???

And if the ALPA version fits then why should our definitions change over time ??? Again, I guess since you say so...

 

[FR8mastr]

Great, you can single handedly decree a change to a long standing union term. Must be nice to have that authority.

So let us move on to your example and perhaps you could explain to us all how it applies to GJ's ?? TSA has not added the "exact same job" over at GJ's. They aren't even the same "trucks." It's an entirely different aircraft. The GJ planes aren't even at a new location. Furthermore, I must have missed the part where TSA sold the Embraer products that the TSA guys were flying. Which means I also missed the part where the corresponding pilots got furloughed....

Do you guys just make up this stuff (and I would rather use another word beginning with "S") as you go ???

And if the ALPA version fits then why should our definitions change over time ??? Again, I guess since you say so...

You are management's wet dream. But in the meanwhile keep flying your plane, and when you are outsourced I sure hope we dont see you on here complaining.

 

[h25b]

You are management's wet dream. But in the meanwhile keep flying your plane, and when you are outsourced I sure hope we dont see you on here complaining.

Thanks...

If you're a TSA pilot exactly when were you or any other fellow pilot outsourced ??? Outsourced, since you obviously haven't the least clue, is when your job is taken away from you and moved to another location at a lower pay rate... This has not happened to a single TSA pilot to date....

It has however, happened to a few thousand major airline pilots. :erm: Come to think of it, I don't see near as many of them whining about it.

 

[Motive Flow]

Back to the original topic, h25b is right about one thing. This is a new environment. Not the post 9/11 one, but the environment of over-reaction by alter-ego pilots to every perceived slight that is thrown their way.
"I was denied the jumpseat! I'm gonna get that mean captain fired!"
"I was called a Scab on the radio. I'm gonna complain to Management and get that awful crew fired."

That whiny captain should get his medical yanked. He has no business flying passengers if he gets so upset over being called a scab. Yank his ATP too for showing a serious lack of judgement. Do you really need to go to Management over some juvenile name-calling? This sounds like the type of guy that would declare an emergency and land overweight at the nearest airport once the FA runs out of Snack Mix.

 

[A350]

FR8mastr:

Oh, I get it now! Regional pilots don't fit the "standard" of directly replacing work? That makes it OK? Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

Look, my major beef with this crap is simple. Mainline pilots have taken it in the a$$ for the past few years and at the same time the regionals have grown exponentially. My job and career went somewhere. Now we have regional pilots complaining that the job they signed up for isn't paying them like they want and management is using the tools available to them to cut costs and keep labor on its toes. I see absolutely NO difference between what management did with Freedom/G0Jets/NEWCO and what they did with the boatloads of RJs when it came to gutting the mainline pilots pay and work rules. You whine about the Freedom and G0Jet pilots taking your job and hurting your careers. Look in the mirror before you cast the first stone.

Now I don't call regional pilots scabs or threaten their careers and rides to work. It is a business, nothing personal. You can whine all you want and scream to the high heavens. The pay and working conditions of all pilots would not be what it is today if pilots had refused to fly these RJ's at lower rates/benefits and insisted that they be on the mainline seniority list. I didn't see anyone refuse the jet/upgrade/job before and it sure as hell isn't going to start happening now. So, either get used to it or go get a job somewhere else. RJ's were the whipsaws of the majors. You loved it as long as it happened to someone else. Now that it is happening to you, you don't like it.



A350