Freedom Air questions...

[FlyinBrian]

Some of our pilots have actually been stopped by AMR, UAL, and Alaska pilots and told that anyone going to FAL wil be blacklisted, and one even showed me the list.

I'm not sure who from AA stopped one of your guys to inform him that the switch to FAL would blacklist him. It seems kind of strange that a non-ALPA major pilot would even care about fighting someone else's battle. Especially since they have plenty going on at their own property. You'd think if they were going to blacklist anyone it would be CHQ and TSA who AMR is using to violate APA's scope restrictions.

I'm not saying he didn't stop anyone from your airline, just that it seems a little strange.

 

[Beechnut]

On your plane, or at Mesa... probably. But don't think that Mesa's pilot group can get these guys blacklisted industry-wide.

Actually they can, and are. You think America West guys won't be interested in a list? ALPA is actively creating just a list.

S.

 

[FlyinBrian]

I would guess that America West is very interested in a list, but they are against Mesa flying the 700 and 900 as much as they are against Freedom flying them. Maybe they'll push to have all Mesa pilots on a blacklist because Mesa if flying the aircraft for much less than what AWA would? After all, that is why you want freedom pilots blacklisted right?

You really beleive that there is going to be another list in circulation that keeps these guys on a black list? They can't go on the scab list because they aren't scabs. But every pilot is going to get a seperate "freedom" list from ALPA to support a regional carrier like Mesa?

If freedom's pilots are on this "blacklist" that Mesa thinks is going to happen, what about Mid-Atlantic, Skywest, Trans-States, and Chatauqua? I want them added to the list too. Mid Atlantic is flying alter-ego for U express and undermining their efforts. TSA and CHQ are being used as alter-egos in violation of AE and AA's contracts, taking flying that contractually belongs to them. Skywest is a non-union carrier that competes with union carriers for business on the basis of price. Let's get them all on the list of "pilots who work for companies that pi$$ off other pilots"

Anyway, I'll be surprised if freedom ever even flies. It's obvious that not enough Mesa pilots are going to jump ship (around 3% I beleive), and with JO saying that they aren't hiring off the street, it seems he may be considering scrapping the idea. Let's hope so. It's a bad thing for the industry.

Just to be clear where I stand: Freedom sucks, but their pilots aren't scabs. They are only foolish. They have something to learn about the industry, but the only black list we have is for scabs, and we should keep it that way. It's a slippery slope once we start blacklisting anyone else.

 

[azpilot]

If freedom's pilots are on this "blacklist" that Mesa thinks is going to happen, what about Mid-Atlantic, Skywest, Trans-States, and Chatauqua? I want them added to the list too. Mid Atlantic is flying alter-ego for U express and undermining their efforts. TSA and CHQ are being used as alter-egos in violation of AE and AA's contracts, taking flying that contractually belongs to them. Skywest is a non-union carrier that competes with union carriers for business on the basis of price. Let's get them all on the list of "pilots who work for companies that pi$$ off other pilots"

Your suggestion isn't valid. Issues with established airlines are very different than the pilots who are going over to Freedumb from Mesa or off the street which is undermining the Mesa pilot group. For example, AWA pilots that have any brains are pissed at Mesa management and AWA management for shifting routes from AWA to Mesa. Most do not hold a grudge against the pilots themselves. The generally applies to those at TSA, CHQ etc. They are doing what they are told or will lose their jobs. Walking over to Freedumb is another matter entirely. I have no flying job and would NEVER consider flying for Freedumb.

- AZPilot

 

[FlyinBrian]

So how about newhires at TSA and CHQ? They are knowingly going to work for an airline that is being used to undermine other airlines' contracts. The aren't "doing what they're told or losing their jobs" I would think that they are under the same category as an off-the-street pilot at freedom. And what about MAPD grads? They ARE in a position of being told to fly for freedom or hit the road.

I would never go to work for freedom either for the reasons I've stated before. I think MESA pilots have every right to be upset with their "brothers" who are selling them out. But they can't reasonably expect the pilots of the whole industry to blacklist some guys who work for a company that they despise.

I don't intend to defend the Mesa folks who went to freedom. I intend to preserve the meaning of the "black list". We need to keep the blacklist reserved for scabs. Until someone crosses a picket line, we shouldn't turn our backs on them forever.

 

[750driver]

Re: Freedom Air is just plain wrong...

Any pilot that crosses over to FAL will become BLACK-LISTED. Period!

Batman

Let me start by saying that I have held ALPA membership for several years, and I don't agree with Freedom's method of operation. Personally, I wouldn't accept employment there, despite my current status. I think Mesa & it's pilot's deserve better.

Having said that ... Batman, I think you need to tone it down. For a guy with 1200 hours, no airline experience, and pending attendance to a newhire class, you've got some serious attitude. Get some experience under your belt and observe for a while BEFORE you start calling for blacklists. You obviously don't comprehend the implications of what you are suggesting. This isn't a game. You're dealing with the livelihood and careers of fellow aviators. Start acting like a professional, instead of a child.

FlyingBrian is right ... when these guys fly struck work, then label them as scabs. Until then, they can't be considered as such. Only time will tell for sure.

 

[Beechnut]

You obviously don't comprehend the implications of what you are suggesting. This isn't a game. You're dealing with the livelihood and careers of fellow aviators. Start acting like a professional, instead of a child.

It isn't Batman that doesn't get it, it's the Freedom pilots. This isn't a game. They're dealing with the livelihood and careers of fellow aviators, and their own! These are the consequences of their actions. The blacklist is the consequence of their actions. Batman didn't offer them the job, THEY LEFT MESA VOLUNTARILY.

I very disappointed that 750driver feels that a rookie that gets it should learn the business first. Maybe 750driver, as an individual that appears to have airline experience, should go back and learn of the industry.


S.

Actively trying to make the lives and careers of Freedom Air pilots as miserable as I can.

 

[FlyinBrian]

If only you would focus some of your anger, hate and aggression trying to take on JO instead of beating up on the Freedom guys. Be upset with them. cold shoulder them when you win your planes back, but jeezus, fight the battle where it's going to matter. A non-scab pilot not getting home to his family is not going to help your cause.

I have not been in this industry long, I cannot claim to speak from vast experience. But when I read about the folks who built the industry which we inherit, I can't help but think that the actions of freedom pilots are relatively insignifcant compared to a scab. I don't have a jumpseat to give, but if I did, I would probably allow a freedom pilot to have it. I would likely explain to him that I have friends at mesa, give him a briefing and then speak to him very little for the rest of the flight. When I see a freedom pilot, I see a brother who has let the family down, not a scab who should be cast out of the family.

I think that time will show that most of the industry will never feel more strongly than that. (MAG being the notable exception)

 

[750driver]

I very disappointed that 750driver feels that a rookie that gets it should learn the business first. Maybe 750driver, as an individual that appears to have airline experience, should go back and learn of the industry.

S.
Actively trying to make the lives and careers of Freedom Air pilots as miserable as I can.

Beechnut weren't you a proponent of posting SSN's and names publicly on the bulletin board, for all to see? Or was that someone else? If you're a role model for this industry, then show me the way out... Maybe you should start a Blacklist next time someone else pisses you off, or how about the next time you don't get your way in the cockpit?

What exactly is it that I need to go back and learn? Was I not specific enough when I stated how I felt about Freedom's actions? Or maybe I just don't "hate" others enough to meet your standards. Grow up and learn to deal with these issues like a professional. I know more about the industry than you might think. I've seen what they do to people just because they "think" the guy was a scab at one time in his career, not because they're even sure about it. My gripe lies with an inexperienced pilot that is blasting his mouth off demanding retribution. He hasn't even begun initial airline training yet according to his profile, but according to you "he gets it." If anyone seems to get it, FlyinBrian does.

Beechnut, I've seen enough to know that guys like you are never happy unless they are fighting or complaining about something in this industry. If that's what YOU learned, then enjoy your career, because I'm sure it will be a miserable one.

I never said these Freedom guys should be left alone, but blacklisting them now is premature. The airline is not even operating yet. ALPA should focus on the root cause, Freedom management. Blacklisting the pilots will not stop JO from developing this airline. Maybe a Mesa Pilot action will. I just think the solution of blacklisting will have little or no effect.

 

[vere76]

bump

 

[Freight Dog]

I'll offer my .02 cents on this.

Personally, I think the whole Freedom issue will be moot point, as the same judge that ruled CCAir and Mesa are a single carrier, left open to Mesa pilots that if Freedom gets going, to bring the same petition back to rule Freedom and Mesa to be a single carrier.

I do see this as a threat to the industry, and JO appears to be Lorenzo, Jr. However, I don't think he will get far enough.

 

[surplus1]

Personally, I think the whole Freedom issue will be moot point, as the same judge that ruled CCAir and Mesa are a single carrier, left open to Mesa pilots that if Freedom gets going, to bring the same petition back to rule Freedom and Mesa to be a single carrier.

Two questions: 1) What is the source of your information? 2) If what you say is true, what effect would you expect that to have?

 

[Freight Dog]

http://www.alpa.org/internet/news/2002news/nr02060.html

 

[Rottweiller]

Actually they can, and are. You think America West guys won't be interested in a list? ALPA is actively creating just a list.

S.

I have actually seen, and copied a list of those who have just "graduated". Amazing how little time it took to hit the streets.

 

[Brother Francis]

Scabs or Heros

In the context of the "Single Carrier" ruling:

Suppose the Freedom Air guys who have been branded/blacklisted/ostracized by certain someones had planned this all along.

Suppose, just suppose these guys stuck their necks out, exposed their throats to the rabid, kneejerk name calling, name publishing disdain and contempt they have been subjected to on these boards, having pre-planned getting themselves and Freedom established only to use this ruling to turn the tables. What an eloquent coup that would be.

I'm not saying this is the case, but I have some ketchup here that might make the crow go down a little easier if this comes to pass.

If it's not the case, then it's not. But the possibility is a cautionary tale for those who would rush to judgement.