FREE Training at TAB Express???

[jppt2000]

Once more, my friend, I thank you for your kind comments. Just as you are doing, sir, I am only expressing my $0.02 opinions.Here is a link to the crap.

Prove me wrong. How old were you when you were hired? And in what year? What was your level of experience? Did you have 135 experience? If you have read my posts carefully, you will have noted that I have said I do not believe there is age discrmination against over-40 pilots who started out young and got their chances later and/or who had previous 135, 121 or corporate experience. Just so you understand, I believe that age discrimination is practiced against later-life career changers without 135, 121 or corporate experience.

Having written all that, please, send me more insults.

Bobbysamd, Booby,
Phil Henry, or whatever your name is.
Let's just say I had the same qualifications, maybe even less than you had.
I had the same theories as you, when I too, was turned down from COEX when they were pay for training. I had to adapt, change my interview techniques.
I saw people PFT and I should have done it. Those folks are by far way ahead of the crowd. Heck one quarter of the folks at my current outfit paid for training. Oh yeah they were paid back from company, are they PFT rats?
Gees, we have drifted way off of this thread.
Booby,
aviation has changed structurally in the last two years.
If you wanna bash and insult people,
rant against the management of the legacy carriers.
They have essentially destroyed the future of both "PFT" and "non PFT" folks.
We the taxpayers, are gonna wind up funding BILLIONS in pensions.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-f-t

Bobbysamd, Booby,
Phil Henry, or whatever your name is.
Let's just say I had the same qualifications, maybe even less than you had.

So why don't you come forward with them, as I asked? Why won't you answer my direct questions? In particular, whether you had 135 or other non-instructing time before you were hired? Once again, prove it.

At least I am up-front with my story. You, my friend, are evasive. Anyone can attack someone else, but let's see you put some facts behind your attacks. I see . . . .

I saw people PFT and I should have done it.

(emphasis added)

Well, we now see your true colors. At least I have never paid for any job in my life, nor have I any respect for those who have, those who do, those who will, or those (like you) who wish they have.

Gees, we have drifted way off of this thread . . . .

. . . thanks to you, sir, who initiated the age discrimination rant. You came way out of left field with that one, when the rest of the posters were just having another P-F-T discussion/TAB bashfest. Do you wish you went to TAB? Or Gulfstream? Please tell.

Booby . . . . If you wanna bash and insult people . . . .

As Ronald Reagan said, "There you go again." You are diverting the discussion, again. Maybe you are really TopGun-Mav.

You must be really sensitive. I've seen plenty of anti-P-F-T people call P-F-Ters "whores." Why don't you attack those folks? I have never used that term about P-F-Ters, nor will I. But I do not care for their P-F-T practices and I will certainly advise and speak out against them.

Got more insults? Certainly you can do better than "booby" and "boobysamd".

 

[jppt2000]

So why don't you come forward with them, as I asked? Why won't you answer my direct questions? In particular, whether you had 135 or other non-instructing time before you were hired? Once again, prove it.

At least I am up-front with my story. You, my friend, are evasive. Anyone can attack someone else, but let's see you put some facts behind your attacks. I see . . . . (emphasis added)Well, we now see your true colors. At least I have never paid for any job in my life, nor have I any respect for those who have, those who do, those who will, or those (like you) who wish they have.

Gees, we have drifted way off of this thread . . . .[/quote] . . . thanks to you, sir, who initiated the age discrimination rant. You came way out of left field with that one, when the rest of the posters were just having another P-F-T discussion/TAB bashfest. Do you wish you went to TAB? Or Gulfstream? Please tell.As Ronald Reagan said, "There you go again." You are diverting the discussion, again. Maybe you are really TopGun-Mav.

You must be really sensitive. I've seen plenty of people call P-F-Ters "whores." Why don't you attack them? I have never used that term about P-F-Ters, nor will I. But I do not care for their P-F-T practices and I will certainly advise and speak out against them.

Got more insults? Certainly you can do better than "booby" and "boobysamd".[/QUOTE]

Sorry Booby,
As the senior Bush said "Not gonna do it"
I don't need to prove a thing to you.
When it comes to anti PFT guys you are probably the loudest.
I think you didn't get my intent Booby.
People who paid for training, are way ahead, than you and the anti PFTers.
I wonder, where would you be now if you paid for training? Hmmm?
We'll never know, but I know where you are now,
throwing tomatoes at people who chose a path different than you.
Bye Bye

 

[TopGun-MAV]

leave boobysamd alone! he's my friend

 

[bobbysamd]

Integrity

Sorry Booby,
As the senior Bush said "Not gonna do it"
I don't need to prove a thing to you.

I think you do. You attacked me and my opinions. Now, back it up. Prove it. I see . . . . .

When it comes to anti PFT guys you are probably the loudest.

To paraphrase James Brown,"Say it loud and say it proud, I'm anti-PFT and I'm proud.

You go all over the place. First, out of the clear, you attack my position on age discrimination. Then, when you cannot back up your accusations, you bring up P-F-T. It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with someone like you.

I think you didn't get my intent Booby.

What is your intent? Attacking me for age discrimination or being pro-P-F-T. Methinks you are confused.

People who paid for training, are way ahead, than you and the anti PFTers.

Well, I, for one, have my integrity. Once again, no job is worth buying.

I wonder, where would you be now if you paid for training? Hmmm?

Reread the previous response. Then, read it again until you understand it. Then, read it once more.

I wonder, where would you be now if you paid for training? Hmmm?

For openers, probably being blackballed. Probably defrauded, and, for that reason, not hired, even after paying for it. Not being able to look at myself in the mirror. That matters the most to me.

We'll never know, but I know where you are now, throwing tomatoes at people who chose a path different than you. Bye Bye.

Here, again, you are extremely sensitive and you take things very personally.

Bye-Bye, Captain Faust. To thine ownself be true. I am.

 

[jppt2000]

Bye-Bye, Captain Faust. To thine ownself be true. I am.

"Easy Francis" .......... Stripes

I didn't rant about age discrimination, just said I know people that accomplished what you failed to do. I know people who also failed, one huge difference is that they don't throw tomatoes.

BoobyD,
I respect your opinion,
It just seems tragic that for someone as wise as you, never went very far. You sure have alot of excuses, and I hope anyone considering paying for training can see that.

 

[bobbysamd]

Excuses v. prostration and BOHICA

I didn't rant about age discrimination, just said I know people that accomplished what you failed to do . . . . one huge difference is that they don't throw tomatoes.

Define "tomato-throwing." Or, read other threads on this board, e.g. some of the RJDC discussions, anti-Mesa, and union v. scab threads. If I am throwing tomatoes, as you allege, there are others who throw insults, barbs, digs and outright vulgarisms - all of which are far more vicious and vituperative than what I write.

BoobyD,
I respect your opinion,
It just seems tragic that for someone as wise as you, never went very far.

Before reading this, I did not think you have the capacity to say anything that is complimentary, as opposed to your demonstrated ability to say things that are derogatory. Accordingly, I'll take it in the spirit in which, I think, it was intended. Unless you, again, do not feel that I understand the intent of your comment.

You sure have alot of excuses, and I hope anyone considering paying for training can see that.

In 1990-'91, P-F-T was starting up. So were some of the pay-for-interview schemes, such as Mesa's ATP program. By that time I had the credentials to merit interviews. I had some, and I'm happy to speak freely about my experiences, as best as I can remember. But others were getting interviews from places where I heard nothing. Although my evidence is anecdotal, I am sure I know why.

I could have paid for training. My money could have got me my interview and class date. Aside from paying for training without being guaranteed I would make it through and actually be hired (people wash out, you know) - which you can read as fraud and scam - and how I never heard of paying for a job, anywhere - and my grave concern about it would affect my relations with other pilots, I wasn't about to pay for anything for which I was already legitimately qualified.

I liken P-F-T to groveling for a job. Having LORs, people walk in materials, sending regular updates, trying to meet H.R. at Kit Darby job fairs and trying to gain other legitimate advantages is one thing; cutting in line with money and in so doing groveling for the job is another. Once again, it may be a great job, but it is still just a job. There are plenty of ways to earn a living without prostrating yourself to an employer by way of P-F-T.

You said earlier that I should rant against management. When one pays for training/a job, it sends a clear message to management that one is more than willing to take it up the rear. It's tough enough to get management to play fairly when one already indicates by paying for a job that it will tolerate unfairness. Consider that a rant.

And also my $0.02 opinion.

 

[flyby]

??

My point is, Bobby constantly rants about how the "system" was unfair to him. Bobby has more than once hinted that he didn't get on with regionals because of age bias. I say he is bitter, takes his anger and disappointment out on people who go an alternate route. I think its pretty low to insult a whole group of people who choose to pursue a different route on their way to a job. Just because people don't agree with the way Booby would do things doesn't make them wrong.

PS, that age discrimination theory is crap. I find it insulting as one of the many who did get hired.

This might be just one guy talking but I don't see how, if you regularly read this site, you could say bobbysamd "constantly rants about the system being unfair to him....". He has an opinion on PFT and voices it regularly. You have to dig deep to find his own personal experience in the industry. I still don't see how you connect his suggestion of age discrimination with his admonition of PFT. It's not like he blames PFT for not being in an airliner now. You wanna talk about PFT, or do you want to throw stones at a guy who took a shot at an airline career but didn't 'make it'? What is your argument? What is 'making it' anyway?

My only horse in this race is I had a student who went the TAB route after I suggested he go with ALLATPS. A FULL year later he is still private-multi-intrument and talking to me about how the TAB airline is coming up as empty promises. He's many 10's of thousands in debt and still hasn't finished their program. It's not for his lack of effort, that is certain. TAB is a scam, I can say that because I have watched a really good guy get taken for a lot of money and all he did was believe what he was told by their marketing people.

cheers

 

[jppt2000]

I could have paid for training. My money could have got me my interview and class date. Aside from paying for training without being guaranteed I would make it through and actually be hired (people wash out, you know) - which you can read as fraud and scam - and how I never heard of paying for a job, anywhere - and how I thought it would affect my relations with other pilots, I wasn't about to pay for anything for which I was already legitimately qualified.

Para-Counselor, I rest my case.
You could of gone to Mesa, but you were afraid of washing out and the job wasn't guaranteed.
The rest of your response sounds like more excuses.
This is too long of a thread for PFT.
I quit, not because I've run out of points to debate you with, but I've grown weary reading your self pity.;(

 

[bobbysamd]

Excuses and self-pity

You could of gone to Mesa, but you were afraid of washing out and the job wasn't guaranteed.

No, I could not have gone to Mesa. I was rejected. There. Prove to me that I wouldn't have been fleeced of P-F-T fees. It strikes me as being a foolish and stupid thing to pay for employment that is not guaranteed. Once more, the word is f-r-a-u-d. One's chances are better in Vegas.

The rest of your response sounds like more excuses.
This is too long of a thread for PFT.
I quit, not because I've run out of points to debate you with, but I've grown weary reading your self pity.;(

No one is forcing you to read anything. I'm happy to read your opinions, though, and I would love to hear your story of success - and so would others who might be contemplating a career change to professional aviation. As I have said repeatedly (maybe you've missed it), I write only about my experiences and those of people I know. Once more, disprove me. I'm waiting . . . . . Did I throw more tomatoes just now?

And, thanks again for your kind words earlier.

 

[bobbysamd]

Fraud, scam and bad faith

My only horse in this race is I had a student who went the TAB route after I suggested he go with ALLATPS. A FULL year later he is still private-multi-intrument and talking to me about how the TAB airline is coming up as empty promises. He's many 10's of thousands in debt and still hasn't finished their program. It's not for his lack of effort, that is certain. TAB is a scam, I can say that because I have watched a really good guy get taken for a lot of money and all he did was believe what he was told by their marketing people.

(emphasis added) Have an answer for that, jppt2000?

That's exactly my point about P-F-T having fraud and scam potential. Undoubtedly Flyby's friend took TAB's marketing representations in good faith - and look where it led him. I'm sorry to hear that it happened and I hope he can find legal relief.

For that matter, search some of the RAA threads to learn more about P-F-T breach and bad faith.

 

[jppt2000]

This might be just one guy talking but I don't see how, if you regularly read this site, you could say bobbysamd "constantly rants about the system being unfair to him....". He has an opinion on PFT and voices it regularly. You have to dig deep to find his own personal experience in the industry. I still don't see how you connect his suggestion of age discrimination with his admonition of PFT. It's not like he blames PFT for not being in an airliner now. You wanna talk about PFT, or do you want to throw stones at a guy who took a shot at an airline career but didn't 'make it'? What is your argument? What is 'making it' anyway?

My only horse in this race is I had a student who went the TAB route after I suggested he go with ALLATPS. A FULL year later he is still private-multi-intrument and talking to me about how the TAB airline is coming up as empty promises. He's many 10's of thousands in debt and still hasn't finished their program. It's not for his lack of effort, that is certain. TAB is a scam, I can say that because I have watched a really good guy get taken for a lot of money and all he did was believe what he was told by their marketing people.

cheers

I find it funny that someone who didn't accomplish his goals would be so
dead against PFT. Is there is something wrong with that statement?
Yes, I agree with both you and Booby that its "buyer beware" when it comes to PFT outfits.
On the other hand, I've met numerous success stories who went through PFT courses.
I just had to respond to BoobyD the self proclaimed expert on how people should pursue a job in aviation.
Booby says he thinks PFT is groveling for a job, good for him. When someone who logs on to this board looking for PFT advice, it is all negative.
What I should have said at the very beginning of this exchange is;
When PFT advice is offered, consider the source(s).
Bye!

Oh yeah,
Cheers!

 

[bobbysamd]

Aviation career experts

I just had to respond to BoobyD the self proclaimed expert on how people should pursue a job in aviation.

I never said that. You just did. Should I take that to be a coronation of sorts?

When PFT advice is offered, consider the source(s).

That is very sound advice. Cheers to you, too, buddy.

 

[jppt2000]

No, I could not have gone to Mesa. I was rejected. There. Prove to me that I wouldn't have been fleeced of P-F-T fees. It strikes me as being a foolish and stupid thing to pay for employment that is not guaranteed. Once more, the word is f-r-a-u-d. One's chances are better in Vegas.No one is forcing you to read anything. I'm happy to read your opinions, though, and I would love to hear your story of success - and so would others who might be contemplating a career change to professional aviation. As I have said repeatedly (maybe you've missed it), I write only about my experiences and those of people I know. Once more, disprove me. I'm waiting . . . . . Did I throw more tomatoes just now?

And, thanks again for your kind words earlier.

You want proof? And guarantees, of course.
How about Comair (all through the 90's)?
ASA (all through the 90's)?, Eagle(90's), just to name a few
Nothing guaranteed at those outfits!
If you didn't pass the checkride, you were out out the door.
BoobyD and Flyby nothing in this world is guaranteed, PFT folks are offered the chance to show ability to learn.

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T

You want proof? And guarantees, of course.
How about Comair (all through the 90's)?

Comair did away with its P-F-T program - interesting . . . .

ASA (all through the 90's)?, Eagle(90's), just to name a few
Nothing guaranteed at those outfits!
If you didn't pass the checkride, you were out out the door.

. . . and out the money as well - as opposed to non-P-F-T outfits from which you were just out the door. Don't forget about PRIA hits. That's something else you pay for.

BoobyD and Flyby nothing in this world is guaranteed, PFT folks are offered the chance to show ability to learn.

. . . for which they pay. Look at flyby's student. He paid for his chance to show his ability to learn. What TAB has done with him is unconscionable and reprehensible.

Not my cup of tea to pay for a job.

Finally,

Can't buy me love, love
Can't buy me love

I'll buy you a diamond ring my friend
If it makes you feel all right
I'll get you anything my friend
If it makes you feel all right
'Cause I don't care too much for money
For money can't buy me love

I'll give you all I've got to give
If you say you love me too
I may not have a lot to give
but what I've got I'll give to you
For I don't care too much for money
For money can't buy me love

--Beatles, 1964. But it can buy you a job when you can't get it for free.

For someone who claims to have read my posts so carefully, you would know that I had four interviews and a cattle call.

Once more, it's impossible to have an intelligent discussion with someone like this person. Better make your last shot a good one because I won't be responding.

 

[jppt2000]

No, I could not have gone to Mesa. I was rejected. There. Prove to me that I wouldn't have been fleeced of P-F-T fees. It strikes me as being a foolish and stupid thing to pay for employment that is not guaranteed. Once more, the word is f-r-a-u-d. One's chances are better in Vegas.No one is forcing you to read anything. I'm happy to read your opinions, though, and I would love to hear your story of success - and so would others who might be contemplating a career change to professional aviation. As I have said repeatedly (maybe you've missed it), I write only about my experiences and those of people I know. Once more, disprove me. I'm waiting . . . . . Did I throw more tomatoes just now?

And, thanks again for your kind words earlier.

BoobyD,
Was Mesa the only outfit? Everyone gets shot down in interviews.
I got shot down by COEX, Comair, both of them PFT outfits. I didn't just stop there.
I also didn't start ranting about the perils and evils of PFT, I did go out and pursue other companies.

 

[jppt2000]

. . . for which they pay. No one should pay for a chance.

Not my cup of tea to pay for a job.

Finally,

Can't buy me love, love
Can't buy me love

I'll buy you a diamond ring my friend
If it makes you feel all right
I'll get you anything my friend
If it makes you feel all right
'Cause I don't care too much for money
For money can't buy me love

I'll give you all I've got to give
If you say you love me too
I may not have a lot to give
but what I've got I'll give to you
For I don't care too much for money
For money can't buy me love

--Beatles, 1964. But it can buy you a job, when you can't get it for free.

Once more, it's impossible to have an intelligent discussion with someone like this person. Better make your last shot a good one because I won't be responding.

Tough love,
BoobyD, you needed some.
When life gives you tomatoes, make tomato sauce, don't throw them.

 

[paid4training]

Define "tomato-throwing." Or, read other threads on this board, e.g. some of the RJDC discussions, anti-Mesa, and union v. scab threads. If I am throwing tomatoes, as you allege, there are others who throw insults, barbs, digs and outright vulgarisms - all of which are far more vicious and vituperative than what I write.Before reading this, I did not think you have the capacity to say anything that is complimentary, as opposed to your demonstrated ability to say things that are derogatory. Accordingly, I'll take it in the spirit in which, I think, it was intended. Unless you, again, do not feel that I understand the intent of your comment.In 1990-'91, P-F-T was starting up. So were some of the pay-for-interview schemes, such as Mesa's ATP program. By that time I had the credentials to merit interviews. I had some, and I'm happy to speak freely about my experiences, as best as I can remember. But others were getting interviews from places where I heard nothing. Although my evidence is anecdotal, I am sure I know why.
_____________________________________________________
dam man you must have been a professor or something!!! What the he!! is a guy who writes intelligently as you doing in an airplane? Most of the info I have seen from upper mang. can't hold a candle to the sentence and grammer structure you use...I'm not givin' you any $hit really I'm not. Just impressed...

 

[bobbysamd]

You weren't giving me sh!t at at all; it was quite the opposite . . . .

dam man you must have been a professor or something!!! What the he!! is a guy who writes intelligently as you doing in an airplane?

Well, that's just it. I'm not, and have not for eleven and a half years now.

Most of the info I have seen from upper mang. can't hold a candle to the sentence and grammer structure you use...I'm not givin' you any $hit really I'm not. Just impressed...

I appreciate it. Further underscoring my feelings about how so many managers and their H.R. lackeys are morons.

I do love to write. Maybe that's one reason why I'm on here so much. I try to present my points logically and clearly, and when possible, with documentation to back up my points. I have learned over the years that it's one thing to have opinions and to make assertions, but neither means anything if you do not have proof to back them up. I enjoy writing about my experiences in hopes that others might learn from them. I also have ($0.02) opinions and am not in any way afraid to express them - or to receive feedback for them.

Thanks again. I appreciate it.