fractionals or majors

[beytzim]

I left Netjets for SWA about 3 years ago, before the new contract. I sometimes wonder if I made the right decision; most of the time I think I did.

Here's why:

1. NJA flying is more dynamic, but at SWA the crews and the company like to have more fun.

2. The airplanes perform better and have cooler glass at NJA but I get a better kick out of doing a walk around a B-737-700.

3. The schedule at NJA is 7/7 which is awesome if you're single or have no kids. The SWA schedule is pretty much 3on4off, which is MUCH, MUCH better with a family. Next month I only have two overnights!

4. The new pay and upcoming pay raise at NJA is fantastic. I heard 190k for Level4 guys. However, it will take most guys 10-20 years to hold captain in that. At SWA, it's about 7 years to upgrade with about 200k base.

5. The food sucks at SWA, and awesome at NJA, period.

6. The hotels suck at SWA and awesome at NJA, 80% of time.

7. Jumpseating and nonrevving is better than accumulating airline miles at NJA. However, having Hilton points is really cool and can't be matched at SWA.

Overrall, I would only go to an airline like SWA if you don't have to commute and want to see your kids most nights of the week. Otherwise, go to Netjets.

 

[Guppiedriver]

....and better clientel (for the most part).

I've been on both sides of the fence, so it seems pretty obvious to me, but why do the frac/corporate guys even mention this? IMO, the best kind of passenger is the one I never have to interface with.

 

[clickclickboom]

Did nearly 8 years at flops and have two years in at jb..

My quality of life is vastly improved.. I bid and build my schedules to work 4 on 3 off 4 on 3 off 4 on and take the rest of the month off.. 82% of my trips are commutable on both sides at my 42% seniority in the rt seat of the bus. I could hold 190 capt but qol would drop dramatically

As for family things are 10 times better at the airlines.. Our schedules are very productive.. This month I am credit at 75 hours and have 20 days off.. Next month is 85 and I have 17 off.. The days are basically my choosing.

NJA is a good deal I personally loved the frac flying however there is alot to be said for the ease of flying and low stress of the airbus.. Plus on the 6 hr transcons that I typically fly it is a very comfortable office.

Having been on both sides of the fence and with 3 small children the airline sked is much much better.. The ability to move work days for a family event is very very nice..

 

[206amphib]

Thanks all for the input! Just a few more questions for those with the experience.

First, does the vacation time at NJ kick in from day one or do I have to put in a year before i can use any time? How will the new 15 day flex schedule affect the ability to get days in a row off?

How hard is it to manipulate your reserve schedule at NW?

My situation is this; I have a trip in may scheduled for my 30th/10yr wedding anniversary. Clearly very important to me....how hard will it be to get 10 days in a row off at either company?

It seems like the general consensus is that the airline sched. is better for family life and i have three small kids. I won't be commuting forever, but can someone confirm that NW pilots can reserve the JS up to 10 days out?

Again, thanks for the info!

 

[CA1900]

First, does the vacation time at NJ kick in from day one or do I have to put in a year before i can use any time?

We have a "Vacation year" -- currently it's July 1 through June 30th. (If the TA passes, the vacation year will begin October 1, but otherwise the answers are the same.)

You'll earn the vacation time from your date of hire until September 30th, and then use it in in the first vacation year (10/1-9/30 period) after your date of hire. The days you get will be pro-rated based on how much of the vacation period you work.

Example: You're hired on 4/1. You'll work 6 months of that vacation year, so you'll earn 7 days of vacation, which you'll then bid to take in that upcoming 10/1-9/30 vacation period. You won't be able to take any vacation before 10/1.

How will the new 15 day flex schedule affect the ability to get days in a row off?

The 15-day schedule is completely at the company's discretion. There is no bidding on days or anything like that, other than using a string of paid-time-off days.

How hard is it to manipulate your reserve schedule at NW?

In our current contract, you can bid for two pairs of hard days off, which must be at least 7 days apart. Or one block of 4 days together. In either case, these are awarded in seniority order.

If the TA passes, the plan is for a computerized preferential bidding system to be implemented, that will let you prioritize the days off you want, preferred tour lengths, and preferred length of time off between tours.

The TA will also include a provision for bidding paid time off, but those won't be available until your second year.

My situation is this; I have a trip in may scheduled for my 30th/10yr wedding anniversary. Clearly very important to me....how hard will it be to get 10 days in a row off at either company?

Not sure about other companies, but at NJA, it would be pretty much impossible your first year. In your second year, assuming the TA passes, you'd be able to bid for Paid Time Off. (If you were on the 7/7 schedule, you could use the PTO days to add to the 7 you already have off.)

It seems like the general consensus is that the airline sched. is better for family life and i have three small kids.

Depends on the kids, I guess. (I don't have any and don't have plans for 'em, so it doesn't affect me directly.) A friend of mine said the departures are the most traumatic part for his kids, not the actual time away. So a few long weeks is better for him than several short trips. But that's him; everybody's different.


Hope that answers some of your questions.

 

[skyaddict]

Make sure you check out some of the great earlier threads on this topic too- e.g.: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=98607

Before I came to NJA, I had blinders on for the majors - now I am glad I ended up here instead. 7 days on too long? Well, yes, but to me it "feels" like a 5-day airline trip. That's because I disagree with the earlier comment that frac work is "harder." Simpler, yes, but I find the airline routine MUCH more monotonous and physically tiring. Two caveats: the closed cockpit door of airliners allows for inflight studying of essential cockpit reading during long pax legs; and NJA seems to love early shows... I do miss the way I could bid for late shows at the airlines, since I am no morning person.

Granted you don't do any stocking/cleaning/bag-schlepping at airlines, but on the other hand, that typically only eats up 10 minutes or so of a frac turn, the turns are usually 90-120 minutes as opposed to 20-60 minutes, you very rarely plane swap throughout the entire tour (the NJA term for a trip) so you are not doing the bag and gate shuffle, you dont have to do the food court or crew room and security shuffle, and even if you need extra time to get the turn done safely, no one ever questions you about it. Besides, half the legs are ferry legs.

And getting 3 or 4 x 21 day vacations a year (not even including sick or paid time offs that result in more 21 day vacs) on top of all the 7 days off etc all the time is something that no airline schedule can ever match.

Money wise, the amount of "soft" money at NJA (eg the 50% match on 401K without any real limit, the 100% coverage of family medical premiums, etc) can add up alot too.

All that said, if one can't consider one's life complete if you don't fly a heavy one day, then no point in regretting that. Also, if one knows that one will be happy at an airline domicile (I can't imagine ever being happy living in an EWR, DTW or MEM but hey, to each their own!), it certainly offers things like short trips or even day trips that make for lots of nights at home if you have a family with kids. But I find for the most part, airline bases suck as places to live, and even if you manage to put down roots, you get the shaft every time some bean-counter decides to shake up the basing. (Of course, I say this on the assumption that everyone at NJA will get 100+ bases to choose from soon.)

Last but not least, airline pilots are probably a bit better placed to benefit from the boom of pilot shortages in the coming years. Still, even this will surely pressure NJA to sweeten compensation during another IBB, since they'll need to recruit from the same pool. Yet the airlines will always be much more vulnerable to future 911 type shocks, operating much closer to the margins, such that they just go nuts with the furloughs as soon as there is any trouble. I know, as an old dawg sim instructor once told me, that you should never invest in "anything with wings," but I'll take NJA relative stability over the crazy accelerator/brake style of the airlines anyday. That has been SWA's secret to staying in the black and becoming an 800# gorilla too- not over-expanding during the booms.

 

[crxpilot]

This was a very well thought out answer. I wish others (including myself at times!) could answer so succintly. Good on ya! :cartman:

I know very little about Northwest. I know what's on AirlinePilotCentral's page on them. And the only real interaction I've had with one of their pilots was in a hotel van in DTW. Out of the blue, he looks at me, and says, "Do you want some advice?"​

"uhhhhhhh..." (I really didn't.)​

"Get out of this f----ing business. Run fast, run far, before it's too late."​

That was it. It was a very quiet van ride after that. :erm: He did strike me as one of those guys who would be miserable no matter where he landed, so take that with a very big grain of salt.​

Other than that, I know nothing about that company or working for it, so I'll have to defer to someone else for the Northwest perspective.​

As for me, I spent about 7 years at a regional airline before coming to NetJets. It was longer than I intended, partly because of the industry crashing down, and partly because I had a bout of tunnel vision with my career. I really saw a major airline cockpit as the only logical step up; I had never really considered the fractionals, even though I had several friends working for NetJets at the time. Hey, you know how hindsight is.​

Sounds about right. The biggest items of what little dissatisfaction I've seen come from two things: limited domiciles for recent hires, and low FO pay. Both of those issues will be greatly improved if this new contract passes.​

I can't speak for the other fracs; I can only speak of NJA. It's a different kind of work from airline flying. Some people like it better, while others just don't like or can't do it. Some feel the uncontrollable itch to fly the "big iron." I really couldn't care less -- for me, it's about the schedule, the lifestyle at work, the pay, and the benefits.

Yeah, you fly planes, but the side work is different. Your work days are generally fixed (most of us are 7-on/7-off), but the content of those days is constantly in flux. Some guys hate not knowing where they're overnighting (or bidding on specific overnights). Others, like me, find the variety to be much more interesting. One night I found myself in a Hilton in IAD. The next, at a $500-a-night luxury resort.

I found the airline job to be easier work overall. I also found it to be pretty dull after a while. Back and forth to the same hub, all day long. The same crappy food court, all week long. Back when my previous company was doing point-to-point stuff versus hub-and-spoke stuff, I found the job much more enjoyable.


As I said, there are side duties that aren't part of an airline job. After a flight, we toss the trash, straighten up the cabin, wipe down the tray tables, and vacuum the carpet if it needs it. Then we eat any leftover catering the passengers didn't touch. Mmmmm.... seafood tray......

If the lav needs servicing, we call line service to come do it, and tip them for it (which is reimbursed). Contrary to FlightInfo lore, we don't dump lavs, and the extent of "cleaning" them is spritzing the top with cleaner and wiping it off. The cleanup routine rarely takes more than about 5-10 minutes. We're responsible for keeping the airplane stocked with drinks and snacks, which we take care of when we hit one of our popular airports with supplies. Before departure, we pick up any catering that was delivered for the passengers, and stow it on the plane.


Of course, we do the normal flying stuff, like pulling charts, getting clearances, loading the FMS, etc. We have a full dispatch department that handles filing flight plans, weight and balance, calculating fuel, and more. That saves us a ton of time and effort on the road, so we can concentrate on our own jobs.

Life on the road is generally pretty good. We normally are put up in good hotels, with a few exceptions here and there. The anomalies are mostly driven by sold-out hotels or out-of-the-way places -- sometimes that means a cheap motel, and sometimes it means an expensive resort. It's never dull! Crew meals are provided on the road as needed, and they're usually pretty good. Certainly better than food-court dreck, that's for sure -- that's one thing I won't miss at all about the airlines at all.

The perks are good. Insurance is 100% company-paid, and it's a pretty good Aetna plan. Dental and vision included, too, along with an optional Flexible Spending Account (money pulled pre-tax, to use for health expenses), and a 401k that matches 50% of your contributions, up to 15% of your paycheck. That's a phenomenal benefit.

Full pay and benefits all start on your first day at training. Uniforms are fully paid by the company. Two weeks of paid vacation (which equals two 21-day periods off if you're on the 7/7) starting your first year.

As for travel, we can ride on empty flights, although the odds of getting back on one of our flights is just about nil. (Having had my share of non-revenue free airline travel, the odds weren't much better!) But we do keep all the hotel and airline points, so free confirmed tickets are just a matter of time. The majority of our hotel nights are in Hilton properties, so we build points with them very quickly, which takes care of the expensive part of a vacation -- the hotel.


It isn't for everyone. As I said, it's more work. You'll be helping load a few suitcases into the baggage area. (And every once in a while, you'll get a "moving van" customer -- they're rare, thank goodness.) The big adjustment for many is that you're truly face-to-face with your customers. There's no kevlar door to protect you (or hide a newspaper) -- if they have a question, like "when do we get there," they can come right up and ask. (Unless they've figured out how to turn on the airshow; then they won't ask that question.)

I like that there's a lot of autonomy on the road. Though you're directed where to fly (obviously), it's on you to make sure things get taken care of. Plane's out of wine, and no stock location? Go get a couple of bottles, expense it, and get paid. No questions asked. (The first time I went to buy wine in my uniform, it felt very... wrong. It would have gotten me canned at my last job! Go figure.) You pretty much get your airplane at the beginning of the week, and it's yours until your week's over, or something breaks and you're off to a service center.

That's about all I can think of. I think it's going to be my career job, thanks in large part to the contract we're working under. The union here is better than any I could have imagined.

 

[CA1900]

This was a very well thought out answer. I wish others (including myself at times!) could answer so succintly. Good on ya! :cartman:

Ha... I'm called a lot of things, but "succinct" isn't usually considered one of 'em. Glad I could help.

 

[Guppiedriver]

7 days on too long? Well, yes, but to me it "feels" like a 5-day airline trip.

And getting 3 or 4 x 21 day vacations a year (not even including sick or paid time offs that result in more 21 day vacs) on top of all the 7 days off etc all the time is something that no airline schedule can ever match.

What major allows five day trips?

Your wrong about the vacation thing. I did a minimum of 21 days at a time with all three weeks of my vacation this year. 7 days off comes with a price; 7 on. Been there done that, no thanks.

 

[skyaddict]

Hey, if you can string 7 days off into 21 at a major, more power to ya. I was at a regional (ACA) and you could play with the bids to 'knock out" overlapping trips but rarely could you squeeze it that far, and it was often luck of the seniority bidding draw, as opposed to being guaranteed at least 21 off.

As for 7-day tours- I'll certainly grant you that it's nothing to write home about, but it sure beats the multiple weeks on that international cargo pilots seem to do alot of. My prior experience at regionals was that 5 day tours were not that uncommon, and you could get back to back 3+3 or 4+2 days that could become 6 day trips to commuters with the in between spent in a crashpad. And for commuters, dribs and drabs of 1-3 days off here and there are next to useless- the whole time is spent recovering and getting ready. If the majors have improved their scheduling way beyond that, then I stand corrected. Certainly, the key to having a life at an airline is to live in base. Plus, it sounds like some carriers have great trip drop/ trip trade systems while others, not so good at all.