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FOs logging PIC
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COOPERVANE
Member since 1967
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gator_hater
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Ah yes the wisdom of the gator is finally revealed. If they head west on I-10 a couple hours to TLH the could graduate for about 60% of that...
look4traffic
Active member
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If you would have read my post you would have seen that the actual price for a UF degree is no where near $120,000... but then again I don't expect FSU grads to have much reading comprehension...
back to the thread...
Flyin Tony
Well-known member
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Legal Interpretation # 92-40
June 5, 1992
Dear Mr. Butler:
Thank you for your letter of March 14, 1992, in which you ask
questions about logging pilot-in-command (PIC) and
second-in-command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the
Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).
Your letter presents the following scenario: under a Part 121
operation, the air carrier has designated a pilot and a co-pilot.
The pilot is the authorized PIC and the co-pilot is the
authorized SIC. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the
sole manipulator of the controls for one or more legs.
You ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot
designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 121.385,
can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane.
The answer is yes.
FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:
(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.
FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly
responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the
operation of that aircraft.
There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC
time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is
important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only
regulates the recording of:
(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet
the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent
flight experience requirements of this part.
Your second question asks if the SIC is flying the airplane, can
he log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he
is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator
of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency
checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. The
answer is yes.
FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:
(2) Pilot-in-command flight time.
(i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may
log pilot-in-command time only that flight time during
which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated,
or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft,
or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as
pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the type certification or the
aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.
(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in
command time all of the flight time during which he
acts as pilot in command.
(iii) Second-in-command flight time. A pilot may log
as second in command time all flight time during which
he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted.
As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot-in-command flight
time that are pertinent to both your questions. The first is as
the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft
during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight
by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385, that
person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who
is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because
that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the
aircraft.
The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your
question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your
letter. Thus, under a 121 operation you can have both pilots
logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated
second in command is manipulating the controls.
We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight
time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to
show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the
requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if
the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or
only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC
can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC
under Part 121.
An example of this difference is FAR 121.652(a), which raises IFR
landing minimums for pilots in command of airplanes flown under
Part 121 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that
type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this
context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not
served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check
rides necessary for certification as a Part 121 PIC.
We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.
Sincerely,
/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
June 5, 1992
Dear Mr. Butler:
Thank you for your letter of March 14, 1992, in which you ask
questions about logging pilot-in-command (PIC) and
second-in-command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the
Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).
Your letter presents the following scenario: under a Part 121
operation, the air carrier has designated a pilot and a co-pilot.
The pilot is the authorized PIC and the co-pilot is the
authorized SIC. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the
sole manipulator of the controls for one or more legs.
You ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot
designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 121.385,
can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane.
The answer is yes.
FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:
(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.
FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly
responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the
operation of that aircraft.
There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC
time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is
important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only
regulates the recording of:
(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet
the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent
flight experience requirements of this part.
Your second question asks if the SIC is flying the airplane, can
he log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he
is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator
of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency
checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. The
answer is yes.
FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:
(2) Pilot-in-command flight time.
(i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may
log pilot-in-command time only that flight time during
which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated,
or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft,
or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as
pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the type certification or the
aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.
(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in
command time all of the flight time during which he
acts as pilot in command.
(iii) Second-in-command flight time. A pilot may log
as second in command time all flight time during which
he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted.
As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot-in-command flight
time that are pertinent to both your questions. The first is as
the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft
during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight
by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385, that
person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who
is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because
that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the
aircraft.
The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your
question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your
letter. Thus, under a 121 operation you can have both pilots
logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated
second in command is manipulating the controls.
We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight
time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to
show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the
requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if
the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or
only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC
can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC
under Part 121.
An example of this difference is FAR 121.652(a), which raises IFR
landing minimums for pilots in command of airplanes flown under
Part 121 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that
type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this
context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not
served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check
rides necessary for certification as a Part 121 PIC.
We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.
Sincerely,
/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
Last edited:
skengdon
AUH!!
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2006
- Posts
- 44
May I ask?
scenario: If you in a 135 operation, and you have 2000TT and your company gives you a PIC rating from that aircraft(learjet/beechjet, etc). But due to your companies insurance you need to have 3000TT in order to sign for the aircraft, so you would fly as say a co-capt.
question: if you as a co-capt was to fly all repo legs etc and the real capt. does the paid 135 legs, you the co-capt could you use those logged repo legs(1000hrs) to take to a 121 airline interview as VALID pic? Granted the 121 company did not specify for capt. who signs for aircraft?
thanks guys
SD
scenario: If you in a 135 operation, and you have 2000TT and your company gives you a PIC rating from that aircraft(learjet/beechjet, etc). But due to your companies insurance you need to have 3000TT in order to sign for the aircraft, so you would fly as say a co-capt.
question: if you as a co-capt was to fly all repo legs etc and the real capt. does the paid 135 legs, you the co-capt could you use those logged repo legs(1000hrs) to take to a 121 airline interview as VALID pic? Granted the 121 company did not specify for capt. who signs for aircraft?
thanks guys
SD
FlyinScotsman
Left-Handed Gear Jockey
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- May 27, 2005
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COOPERVANE
Member since 1967
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2002
- Posts
- 2,167
What do you think mainline MEANS when they say 1000 PIC. Do you think they are looking for a first officer logging PIC 'cause part 61 says I can, or are they perhaps looking for a little COMMAND EXPERIENCE? They seem to have to spell it out for all the SJS applicants.
Again, good luck with that
Again, good luck with that
Sticky
Never Trust A Monkey
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2003
- Posts
- 289
I was reading the local paper about tuition a few weeks ago and they had a good story about tuition hikes. They priced UF more than some ivy leagues. One student interviewed transferred to Cornell..or Tufts..in NY because it was cheaper. Maybe it depends of instate or out, and different degrees? The paper was talking about 30K a year.
..........gainesville is a nice town though..been there about 1 year now.
Last edited:
Sticky
Never Trust A Monkey
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..but then I'd be a dirty Semenhole fan...
Bluestreak
Fitty-Six F100's rock
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FlyinScotsman
Left-Handed Gear Jockey
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- May 27, 2005
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acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
Maybe it's late, but I don't follow. Let me read this again in the morning.
How did you erase your single engine PIC time from your logbook - since clearly Fedex does not consider that as PIC you should never have logged it in the first place - curious minds want to know?
The FAA is advising what you can log for the purpose of qualifying for a rating or certificate, FX is asking for a listing of experience on a job application. One does not have any bearing on the other, just as military guys log their time one way and put it on a application a different way.
Mercury
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 24, 2003
- Posts
- 233
CFIse,
If i am reading the FedEx qualifications page correctly it doesnt say a thing about single engine time. The 1500 and 1000 pic refer specifically to multi engine turbo prop or jet aircraft.
And to answer your question, I did not have to "erase" any time from the logbook. Remember the first rule for filling out any application, read, understand and follow the directions which in this case refer only to multi engine flight time.
Have a great weekend.....
If i am reading the FedEx qualifications page correctly it doesnt say a thing about single engine time. The 1500 and 1000 pic refer specifically to multi engine turbo prop or jet aircraft.
And to answer your question, I did not have to "erase" any time from the logbook. Remember the first rule for filling out any application, read, understand and follow the directions which in this case refer only to multi engine flight time.
Have a great weekend.....
svcta
"Kids these days"-AAflyer
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- Nov 14, 2004
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Woo, 10 pages
suckers
DashTrash400
It's a dog's life
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- Dec 16, 2004
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Woo, 10 pages
Hahah, you crack me up man.
blueridge71
Outlasted two companies
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2003
- Posts
- 2,261
Well, keeping in mind that there is no such thing as a co-captain unless you are a cheerleader and that you have a type rating (PIC), you could log the time as follows:
-all of it as FAR 1 SIC since you are not allowed to be FAR 1 PIC due to insurance. Whether the company makes you sign or not, somebody has to be in charge.
-FAR 61 PIC for the time that you are sole manipulator
-Total time for the total duration of flight to get you to the magic 3000.
Again, I stress that if you log FAR 61 PIC, you need to keep it separate from the FAR 1 PIC for clarity and accounting when it comes to resumes and interviews.
bailey3083
I'm Not Hiding
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Amish RakeFight
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...did the guy in your avatar come up with that beauty?
SuperPilot
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Mookie
luckiest man alive
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nominated for best posting on flight-info in years....
thanks, I needed the laugh...
Mookie
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