FOs logging PIC

[CFIse]

If you meet the requirements under 61.51 to log the time as PIC (which on the CRJ means a type rating as well) then by all means log it as PIC. As we should all have learned at our mother's knee, LOGGING PIC has nothing to do with BEING PIC and so all the people getting their panties in a wad about Part 121 designating the PIC and the flight release and whatever else you're getting all excited about are wrong.

Airline's will ask you to complete an application form, on which they will ask for various types of time, and if they have a definition of that time that is different from the FAA's they will tell you - many of them consider PIC to be only that time you "signed for the airplane" - which means ACTING as PIC. Many of them don't count PIC time logged as an instructor, should we not have put that time in our precious logbooks as well? Airline interviewers aren't stupid - when they look through a logbook they are looking for correctly logged time - as long as the time was correctly logged according to the Federal Aviation Regulations they'll be fine with it - AS LONG AS YOU DID NOT MIS-REPRESENT THAT TIME ON YOUR APPLICATION - now that would be a problem.

 

[OldManPilot]

I am amazed that the "Time Greed" would lead you to falsify your logbook. When you eventually go to upgrade, the FAA or Check Airman will review your logged time to ensure you have the time required for the certificate or rating that is sought. After seeing that SIC time was logged as PIC it can and will cause your entire logbook to be suspect. I have seen this before causing the applicant to provide proof of time, ie notorized letters from prior employers, notorized letters from prior flight schools, notorized copies of engine log times to verify that the amount of time logged for the aircraft matches what was logged in a given period of time. (if you owned your own aircraft).

This type of behavior by a pilot applicant is not tolorated. Passengers lives are at stake. There is a reason that most airlines have a base time that must be met prior to upgrade, not only for insurance reasons, but also for experience.

I hope you will correct your logbook and log time appropriate to your current position.

Remember: You don't know what you don't know!

 

[BoilerUP]

If you meet the requirements under 61.51 to log the time as PIC (which on the CRJ means a type rating as well) then by all means log it as PIC.

This is the worst piece of advice I've ever read...and that's saying quite a bit on Flightinfo.

As we should all have learned at our mother's knee, LOGGING PIC has nothing to do with BEING PIC and so all the people getting their panties in a wad about Part 121 designating the PIC and the flight release and whatever else you're getting all excited about are wrong.

You are right; being PIC and logging PIC are two totally different things...but if you are an FO in a 121 operation and you are logging PIC on the legs you are the flying pilot, that is going to be a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE red flag for any pilot hiring folks when they take a look at your resume and then take a look at your logbook. I know I'd be suspicious as hell if I were interviewing somebody that did that, and I'm just a dumb line pilot. Are you willing to run that risk?

 

[zawillif]

This is by far the funniest thread on here in awhile. It's like a Christopher Guest movie! Or maybe Borat would be better . .

 

[SKYBOUND]

Children flying jets. This thread is embarrassing on the same level as watching President Bush give just about any speech. Painful to see.

 

[saabdude]

Back in college, I officially logged 0.2 of airport beacon time. I was riding that baby like no tomorrow. And no, I didn't get bucked off.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Why would you want to log right seat time as PIC when you're the designated SIC in a CRJ?

If you've doubts, which it seems you have, then maybe it just ain't right. Use some common sense.

 

[BeechDawg]

I don't see why you guys are making fun of me for going to riddle and buying my job... I didn't do either. I'm just getting some good quality jet PIC time, thats all. Why the anger towards me?

Think about what you are building PIC time for.... The majors? The upgrade? The majors will take one look at your logbook and throw you out of the interview for lying on your application about PIC time....that would kind of defeat the purpose of interviewing. Idon't think that it will hurt your upgrade because you're gonna have to wait for your number to come up anyway.

Majors mostly carry a 1000 turbine PIC req. Don't you think when you get to the interview and have 3000 TT with 1500 JET PIC it will look fishy.

Hey man it's your career -- do what you want.

 

[BeechDawg]

. As we should all have learned at our mother's knee, LOGGING PIC has nothing to do with BEING PIC and so all the people getting their panties in a wad about Part 121 designating the PIC and the flight release and whatever else you're getting all excited about are wrong.

Airline interviewers aren't stupid - when they look through a logbook they are looking for correctly logged time - as long as the time was correctly logged according to the Federal Aviation Regulations they'll be fine with it - AS LONG AS YOU DID NOT MIS-REPRESENT THAT TIME ON YOUR APPLICATION - now that would be a problem.

Are you, or have you ever, been an airline interviewer? Do you have any idea that what you are saying is wrong? Walk your logbook with this and explain it to those at Southwest, or Air Tran.....you wouldn't be the first to get tossed even if it was an honest mistake....Although the FAR's are grey in this area.....it only matters to the interviewer that you are trying to get hired by.....and since I was one of them......This is unethical....You are a professional pilot, and making a decision like this (taking the easy way out) just says what type of person you are

 

[Yudso]

Check out the back of your certificate. What does it say under ratings next to CL-65?

 

[Cows Go Moo]

I found myself getting genuinely curious if this was flamebait or not, and after looking at some of your past posts it sounds like you're serious about this. A Pinnacle CRJ FO hired mid 2006 or so from what I gather... Don't log your FO time as PIC. Plain and simple. You've got to call the time what it is, not an FAR legal-talk stretch of reality. That logbook is going to stay with you for the rest of your life. At any point along the way someone may look and wonder and ask how it is you got 1000 hours of CRJ PIC before upgrading... don't put yourself in that position. Under most 121 flying, there is a designated captain and FO. Who's ultimately responsible for aircraft operation? The captain. Who gets praised when something goes right? The captain. Who gets burned at the stake when it doesn't? The captain. Ask yourself that question and you'll know who can log PIC time. I apply this also to instances that I've flown in the right seat though I was captain qualified and current for the left. I've worn four stripes since 2000, but if I'm in the right seat and not conducting IOE or a line check, it's 100% SIC time. I've gotten a few hundred hours of SIC time that way. Just call it what it is. You'll feel good, you'll feel honest, and you won't mind when that major airline interviewer pages through your book and asks you to tell a story regarding some of its contents. Don't be overeager to fill your book. It will happen just by virtue of having a flying job.

 

[txpilot1974]

Back in college, I officially logged 0.2 of airport beacon time. I was riding that baby like no tomorrow. And no, I didn't get bucked off.

LMAO, thats some funny stuff. I logged some wind tee time back in high school. Oh the memories...

 

[txpilot1974]

If you meet the requirements under 61.51 to log the time as PIC (which on the CRJ means a type rating as well) then by all means log it as PIC. As we should all have learned at our mother's knee, LOGGING PIC has nothing to do with BEING PIC and so all the people getting their panties in a wad about Part 121 designating the PIC and the flight release and whatever else you're getting all excited about are wrong.

Airline's will ask you to complete an application form, on which they will ask for various types of time, and if they have a definition of that time that is different from the FAA's they will tell you - many of them consider PIC to be only that time you "signed for the airplane" - which means ACTING as PIC. Many of them don't count PIC time logged as an instructor, should we not have put that time in our precious logbooks as well? Airline interviewers aren't stupid - when they look through a logbook they are looking for correctly logged time - as long as the time was correctly logged according to the Federal Aviation Regulations they'll be fine with it - AS LONG AS YOU DID NOT MIS-REPRESENT THAT TIME ON YOUR APPLICATION - now that would be a problem.

Are you serious?

 

[COOPERVANE]

AGAIN WITH THIS STUPID QUESTION!!!

Shortcut, shortcut, shortcut. All you guys care about. Don't you think the "out of touch old guy" interviewing MIGHT figure out that you have no integrity? Would he want to hire such a person into HIS peer group even with your mad RJ autopilot skills?


Here's my advice: Log EVERYTHING as PIC all the time. Log every second as instrument since you don't have to look outside anymore with that sweet autopilot. As soon as you hit that 1000 hours PIC send your stuff out to your dream job.

LET the door hit you in the A$$ for being such a tool!!

Do what you want

 

[pilotlbs]

Let me guess.....this knucklehead is either with SkysWorst or ASA....I can't believe he would even attempt this. Boy, if he shows up with that logged as PIC he will get nailed in an interview. They will chew him up big time.

Why would you assume SkyWest or ASA, wouldn't you assume a GoJet or Mesa? Next time dude, 6 months.

 

[CFIse]

Although the FAR's are grey in this area.....

There's nothing "grey" about it - most people, especially airline interviewers, you excepted I guess, understand the logging regulations. CFR 61.51 is well understood.

it only matters to the interviewer that you are trying to get hired by.....and since I was one of them......This is unethical....You are a professional pilot, and making a decision like this (taking the easy way out) just says what type of person you are

Well unethical is in the eyes of the beholder. If a company wants to know how much time you have logged as PIC under the regulations it's a good number. As you SHOULD know, if, as you claim, you have conducted interviews, most places want a different PIC number than the amount logged under the regulations. If you tried to include the time you had logged as PIC while you were acting as SIC in the time requested by company then you would get bounced from the interview, and rightfully so.

Why is it the easy way out? We all agree the time doesn't count towards hiring miniums at most companies - what's unethical about it? Mis-representing the time, that's a problem, but logging correctly the time the regulations specifically allow you to log, what's the problem with that?

 

[CFIse]

Check out the back of your certificate. What does it say under ratings next to CL-65?

If it says SIC only then, obviously, he/she can't log any time as PIC, since I think we all agree the CL-65 requires a type rating. However if it doesn't say SIC only then he/she is good to go.

There are a number of FOs out there with full up all good to go CL-65 type ratings on their commercial certificate, wasn't it RAA that used to run that particular way of separating fools from their money.

 

[COOPERVANE]

There are a number of FOs out there with full up all good to go CL-65 type ratings on their commercial certificate, wasn't it RAA that used to run that particular way of separating fools from their money.

NO!! I'm embarassed for you that we're having this discussion!!

Just because you have a type dosn't allow you to log PIC if you are not THE PIC. If it is YOUR leg and your captain elects to designate you as PIC, lets you sign the paperwork, then GO FOR IT. He will log SIC, so don't expect it.

Call the FSDO and ask them. See what THEY say!! Better yet, let me know your full name and certificate number, and I'll ask them for you.

 

[rickair7777]

There's nothing "grey" about it - most people, especially airline interviewers, you excepted I guess, understand the logging regulations. CFR 61.51 is well understood.



Well unethical is in the eyes of the beholder. If a company wants to know how much time you have logged as PIC under the regulations it's a good number. As you SHOULD know, if, as you claim, you have conducted interviews, most places want a different PIC number than the amount logged under the regulations. If you tried to include the time you had logged as PIC while you were acting as SIC in the time requested by company then you would get bounced from the interview, and rightfully so.

Why is it the easy way out? We all agree the time doesn't count towards hiring miniums at most companies - what's unethical about it? Mis-representing the time, that's a problem, but logging correctly the time the regulations specifically allow you to log, what's the problem with that?

If you want to use your own logbook to make a statement about your interpretation of the legal fine points of the FAR's, knock yourself out!

But logging this sort of time WILL create doubt and confusion in the eyes of most interviewers...best case you will have some explaining to do, worst case they will just write you off without asking for an explanation. MY logbook is a tool to get me a better job someday, not a means of self-expression. Maybe when I'm a widebody CA I'll start making "mile-high" entries

 

[Flyer1015]

Of course you can log your right seat time as PIC time on the CRJ!


And remember, if you are a passenger on the CRJ sitting over the wing, keep an eye out on the wing for anything that might occur out of the ordinary.
If you do that, you can log your passenger time as a secondary-safety-pilot, and log that as PIC on the CRJ.

Any questions?

 

[Edge540]

Guys.. notice the guy who started this thread is quiet. I bet he was sitting around and thought "What could I post that would cause everyone to get all pissed off and go crazy? Hmm, not gojets. How about Regs, they are always fun to debate....."

Anyone with sense knows that you cannot log PIC ever when you are FO, unless you are a captain typed and designated as PIC. Repo flights are 91, so 91 rules apply.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Can you legally fly faster than 250 kts if ATC requests you to do so?

There. That is a less moronic debate!!

 

[flyf15]

Can you legally fly faster than 250 kts if ATC requests you to do so?

There. That is a less moronic debate!!

I do it all the time, usually without ATC request.

 

[ERJpusher]

At my last interview, the interviewer took out a calculator and added up all of my PIC time page by page. When she got to my captain upgrade IOE entries, she said, "Oh, good!! You logged this as SIC time. You wouldn't believe the number of people that try to log IOE as PIC time." And that was time spent in the LEFT SEAT with a type rating in hand.

 

[urflyingme?!]

CFIse is a stooge.

You heard me CFI.

 

[time builder]

What's the point of logging PIC from the right seat. If you're trying to impress a future employer, they'll see right through it. If you're trying to get your PIC time for your ATP, read the regs:

(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.

But, really, who doesn't have 250 PIC by the time they have 1500 hours, or do I not want to know?

 

[blueridge71]

First off, there are two types of PIC. There is FAR 1 PIC in which the PIC is the person who signs for the aircraft. This is captain time, or what we can refer to as "good PIC" and this is the definition that Southwest and JetBlue have on their applications.

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

Second, there is FAR 61 PIC. This is the PIC that can be logged by a pilot rated in the aircraft who is the sole manipulator of the controls. This is what we'll call "worthless PIC." Note that you have to be rated in the aircraft. For a turbojet, that means a type rating. A SIC type rating is not sufficient because, by definition, it allows you to fly as an SIC, not a PIC.

FAR61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

That is one of the benefits to working for a fractional. You get typed in the airplane, so you can log PIC on the legs that you fly. I recommend that if you choose to log FAR 61 PIC that you keep it in a separate column from your FAR 1 PIC.

 

[BeechDawg]

There's nothing "grey" about it - most people, especially airline interviewers, you excepted I guess, understand the logging regulations. CFR 61.51 is well understood.



Well unethical is in the eyes of the beholder. If a company wants to know how much time you have logged as PIC under the regulations it's a good number. As you SHOULD know, if, as you claim, you have conducted interviews, most places want a different PIC number than the amount logged under the regulations. If you tried to include the time you had logged as PIC while you were acting as SIC in the time requested by company then you would get bounced from the interview, and rightfully so.

Why is it the easy way out? We all agree the time doesn't count towards hiring miniums at most companies - what's unethical about it? Mis-representing the time, that's a problem, but logging correctly the time the regulations specifically allow you to log, what's the problem with that?

It is very much a grey area, especially when operating under Part 121.......In your interpretation -- which apply FAR 61, or 121......which wins out? R you sure? Would you take your logbook to the FAA?

I know an intructor who logged safety pilot time as PIC, had his logbook reviewed (for a seperate reason) then proceeded to lose his CFI for mislogging time......One feds interpretation of that rule......

It all depends on who you are getting in trouble with, the FAA, your company? Are you willing to take that chance.

Use your head.....it's not worth losing it all....even if you are technically correct are you gonna argue away your career at Southwest?

 

[blueridge71]

I edited my post to include the actual FAR references. If the Feds say anthing, it is in black and white.

In my logbook, I have a separate column for FAR 61 Turbine PIC. That does not go into my normal PIC column. On my resume, I include the figure as FAR 61 TPIC.

As you said, Southwest won't take that PIC time, but some airlines will. I'm very clear about what it is and am not attempting to deceive anyone.

And I'll stress again that I have a type rating in my airplane just to avoid any confusion. With no type rating or with an SIC type, this would not be legal.

 

[look4traffic]

First of all, no one at riddle pays 90,000 for a job. They pay 120,000 for a 4 year degree with a declared major in aviation. What they do with the degree is up to them. Yes, some airlines start a new hires at 18,000. However, the goal is ten years later to be in heavier equipment making 80-100K. Students at U of F in Gainesville are forking out 120,000 also for careers that max out at 80-100K after 30 years. Apples to apples...it's not so bad.

Actually, I'm a student at UF and the cost for a four year degree is no where near $120,000. I spend 6,000/year on tuition and about the same on room and board for a total of about $12,000/ year.