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Forbes article on pilots...

pilotyip

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Yip, sounds like you picked that up in the Humanity and Western Civilization class at your college or that your kids just bankrupted your retirement account just getting through college and you couldn't convince them otherwise...No joke man!!
college who needs college?
 

Pogue Mahone

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And yes... Coding in C++/Perl/Java/C Sharp is more complicated than putting a hold into an FMS. I'd be surprised if anyone would argue with that ;)

I certainly would not argue with that.

More importantly, however, everyone knows chicks dig programmers. If you know C++/Perl/Java/C Sharp you are sure to bag some stone cold foxy babes.
 

Ty Webb

Hostage to Fortune
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Some day some of us are going to have to rely on extensive knowledge and good habit formations to evade catastrophe. Fate picks who has to show their skills, or Lack thereof. Just ask Sully.


Some of the truest words ever written on F.I., and I have been on here since about 1996.

Cynic, you need to get yourself a copy of the book "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest Gann. Much of what you will read in that book is still very true today, and if you haven't ever flown a 16 hour duty-day through some of the most volatile weather imaginable, then you're commenting about something that you have no concept of. :mad:

Yeah, I know, you had to put in 16 hours one night on the eve of a really big "build", and your ISP went t.u. . . . . and your CIO was going "WTF?" but it just really ain't the same.:laugh:
 

pilotyip

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a copy of the book "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest Gann. Much of what you will read in that book is still very true today, a:laugh:
What!!!! you mean there are pilots on this site who had not read the BOOK? This has to be fixed by the mods right now
 

cynic

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You guys have me all wrong.

I agree that we SHOULD have only highly qualified and highly intelligent and highly capable pilots.

My point is that unintelligent and incompetent people can and do get type ratings and through airline pilot training. It is not hard to complete the training. That is why it is possible to pay very low wages to people that are intellectually limited.

In my profession however, the bar for a minimally functioning employee is quite a bit higher and as a result; starting salaries are much higher.

It is what it is. I'd rather be a pilot, it is more fun, sitting at a desk sucks. I was a full time pilot for a year or two before we had kids :) But trying to support a family on peanuts sucks and I'd like to actually retire one day.
 

DTW320

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You guys have me all wrong.

I agree that we SHOULD have only highly qualified and highly intelligent and highly capable pilots.

My point is that unintelligent and incompetent people can and do get type ratings and through airline pilot training. It is not hard to complete the training. That is why it is possible to pay very low wages to people that are intellectually limited.

In my profession however, the bar for a minimally functioning employee is quite a bit higher and as a result; starting salaries are much higher.

It is what it is. I'd rather be a pilot, it is more fun, sitting at a desk sucks. I was a full time pilot for a year or two before we had kids :) But trying to support a family on peanuts sucks and I'd like to actually retire one day.
You need to update your profile on FI. Because I don't see the type ratings in transport category aircraft that you obviously must have in order for you to make such a "it's so easy, a caveman could do it" statement. I think most of the type rated pros here would have to disagree, even though you state that they are "intellectually limited". Somehow I don't think that your job as a "full time pilot" for "a year or two" with your CFII even remotely approached the level of "competence" and "intelligence" generally required to obtain a type rating in a large transport category aircraft. Actually, I KNOW you do not speak from any experience because, A. You basically admit it and B. I have done the whole CFI, CFII, CFIME thing also (as you profile indicates) PLUS the charter,night freight, commuter FO/CAPT, Major airline FE/FO/CAPT thing and can tell you that there is no comparison between the 2 sets in terms of "competence" and "intelligence" required. Seriously, update your profile here to include all of the transport category aircraft you have flown as FO and/or have type ratings in so we don't think that it's just some snot-nosed CFI telling us that we are intellectually limited. Then please tell your buds in IT to do something about all the sh#tty commercial software out there that I have to endure.

I mean, its almost as if the nerds who designed it were unintelligent and incompetent!

BTW, if you REALLY think that the reason entry level pilots are paid so low is because they are "intellectually limited", then I think it must be YOU who fits that description. I take it you didn't get any finance or economics at Devry or U of Phoenix while working on your nerd degree. You see, there's this thing called supply and demand. No one wants to do your job, LOTS want to do mine. Therefore many pilots will take the low wages in hopes of moving up the compensation ladder while doing something they enjoy. Admittedly, that model has been strained a lot in recent years. But don't kid yourself that a big difference in starting salaries between careers is indicative of some intellectual difference. The reasons for that couldn't be more basic....yet, somehow they have escaped you.
 
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cynic

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But don't kid yourself that a big difference in starting salaries between careers is indicative of some intellectual difference. The reasons for that couldn't be more basic....yet, somehow they have escaped you.

Hmmm... I think you are mistaken. I didn't say it was an "intellectual difference." I'll readily agree that lots of pilots are smarter than I. You might be one of them. What I did say was that the intellectual requirements for entry are quite low. That is, someone not terribly bright CAN get a commercial, CFI, ATP, fly freight, get on with airline X and fly a transport category aircraft.

If it were the case that there were onerous requirements for the job then indeed the pilot supply would be limited. Let's say for example, you must have scored in the 95th percentile on a standardized test to be a pilot. That would limit the number of people that could do the job. Or if for example, the written test for an ATP were so hard that it produced a failure rate of 95 percent. That too would limit the supply of pilots.
 

waveflyer

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Starting salaries?

Ever see the starting salaries of internists? Low salaries while putting your basic time in is common.

Starting over at those low salaries when changing companies is a failure of unions to adjust to times after deregulation

it's what happens when the senior call the shots
 

pilotyip

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could not agree more

You guys have me all wrong.

I agree that we SHOULD have only highly qualified and highly intelligent and highly capable pilots.
and college is not necessary for this, lets make a 28 on the ACT or 1300 SAT a requirement for an ATP. Better yet lets make it retro for even safer skies.
 

mesaserf

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The arts and humanities portion of my Bachelors of Science degree was in my opinion the most valuable portion of my education. It has allowed me a much fuller and richer life than if I had just stuck to technical studies.
 

DTW320

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Hmmm... I think you are mistaken. I didn't say it was an "intellectual difference." I'll readily agree that lots of pilots are smarter than I. You might be one of them. What I did say was that the intellectual requirements for entry are quite low. That is, someone not terribly bright CAN get a commercial, CFI, ATP, fly freight, get on with airline X and fly a transport category aircraft.

If it were the case that there were onerous requirements for the job then indeed the pilot supply would be limited. Let's say for example, you must have scored in the 95th percentile on a standardized test to be a pilot. That would limit the number of people that could do the job. Or if for example, the written test for an ATP were so hard that it produced a failure rate of 95 percent. That too would limit the supply of pilots.
Actually, you said exactly that:

That is why it is possible to pay very low wages to people that are intellectually limited.

In my profession however, the bar for a minimally functioning employee is quite a bit higher and as a result; starting salaries are much higher.
So, all that is required to get an ATP and/or a type rating is a written test? There is no intellectual value in the process requirements to pass a type ride and oral? I think it could certainly be argued that to pass a type ride/oral an applicant has to achieve at least the equivalent of a 95%.

Back to the bigger question that you did not answer. If you have never gone through a type rating or ATP how are you qualified in the least to render an opinion of how hard or intellectually demanding it is? I've flown non-type rating required Cessna, Piper, Beech, and Grumman airplanes. Lots of fun. No comparison however to the multi-hour orals and sim/aircraft rides required for the transport category a/c I've flown and been typed in. Not to mention the "intellectual" efforts required when the Thales or Honeywell computers that your IT buds programmed have screwed up or quit working.
 
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pilotyip

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And what was the accident rate?
It was extremely high over 15,000 aircrew died in stateside training accidents between 1940 and 1945. This was a combination of college and academy graduates and high school graduate. In the stats showed the commissioned officer with a college degree crashed a higher rate than their high school grad cadet ranks.
 

waveflyer

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Yip-
we get your opinion

I agree and know several very good pilots w/ no degree - 2/3 are a bit rough around the edges however and have a bit of a complex about their lack of education.

In the 121 world- right or wrong, like it or not - the pilots are an ambassador for the airline- you will get stopped at some of the strangest times and ought to be able to converse on many different levels. This gives the traveling public confidence.

It is not perfect - but the best way to ensure that you have pilots capable of performing that ambassador duty is to hire those w/ a basic 4 year degree.

As far as standards go- it's not that difficult an achievement- shows a baseline
of discipline and social skills.

The no college degree type is a complete mystery- might be brilliant- might be rough-
and when hr needs to hire a quick 500 pilots- they have to use a statistical argument in their practices -
 
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Cardinal

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It is much easier to fly a jet and input data to an FMS than it is to write a complex computer program.

Perhaps. But if you select the wrong NDB in said FMS the airplane turns around in a narrow valley and you die spectacularly in a flaming crater on the top of a Colombian mountain. Pretty much the same.
 

waveflyer

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You know what the last words of the Microsoft flight sim/ gamer types are in an airplane?

"Wait! I've still got 3 lives!!!"
:laugh:
 

inthepool

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Still no word from cynic about his wealth of experience with transport category aircraft? Interesting that he declined to comment on it earlier as DTW320 pointed out for us...
 

waveflyer

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He doesn't have it. That's ok.
Like a kid in college alive w/ the optimism and arrogance of what he believes he can do-
he's forgetting the humility required when in the presence of those who actually have.

Types aren't especially challenging to me anymore- though I better treat them as if they are or they get infinitely harder- but if I pu in the time- it's easy.

But that first one. The culmination of years of sacrifice -ramping up to 3-4 months of pre-captain studying- self induced pressure combined with the real pressure of a commuter that would think nothing of failing me if I didn't meet the standards of the hundreds who came before me- knowing that a failure would follow me throughout my career.

Types are easy now bc I succeeded then. I'll never forget that.

Courage defines this career in a lot of ways. Grace under pressure. Financial pressure. Emotional pressure as we go after a unique experience and career.

It's not great form to critique those who stuck it out through all the pressures- while you chose a less risky career behind a desk.

But most of (guys and girls) had our nuts drop a long time ago- and truly don't care what those who don't do what we do- think about what we do.
 
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