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For all you "if you don't like it quit" guys

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NYRANGERS

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2002
Posts
592
Here is where we are heading. The attitude of, "if you don't like it quit" will destroy this profession faster than any management. A little look into the future............







Air Pilots Get Older and Work Harder<<<<



By Lyuba Pronina



Staff Writer



Sergei moves people. By day he pilots a commercial airliner for a domestic
carrier. And by night he cruises the streets of Moscow in his car, in search
of fares to supplement his paltry monthly salary.



Sergei, who refused to reveal his full name and employer, would be the
first to call his moonlighting as a gypsy cab driver a scandal, considering
his responsibilities as an airplane captain.



"Our managers treat us like bus drivers," Sergei said bitterly.



The domestic airline industry is in its fourth straight year of growth. But
for the country's pilots, rising passenger volumes translate into longer
hours for roughly the same pay.



On average, a Russian pilot earns $9,500 per year. By comparison, the
starting annual salary for Lufthansa pilots is $67,000 and moves up to
$135,000. Delta Air Lines pays its pilots between $100,000 and $300,000.



In Soviet times, flying planes was a prestigious profession, remunerated
with above-average salaries, benefits and pensions.



But today, the country's pilots are facing a crisis. The high demands of
the job and poor pay are scaring off a new generation of pilots. Since
1991, the average age of airline captains has risen to 47, up from 40 to 41,
according to the Cockpit Personnel Association of Russia, the pilots' trade
union.





Over the past decade Russia has lost a third of its cockpit crews, down
from 32,000 to 20,000, according to the union, while passenger volumes last
year once again hit 1995 levels.



In 2003, Russia's 200-odd airlines flew 11 percent more passengers, or 29.5
million, on the year, and in the first half of 2004 traffic grew by a record
19.6 percent, according to the Federal Air Transport Service.



"If [industry growth] continues at such a pace, in two to three years we
won't have enough pilots to meet demand," said Miroslav Boichuk, president
of the Cockpit Personnel Association.



"Pilots are leaving airlines, and those who stay are treated like slaves,"
said Oleg Prikhodko, head of Bashkir Airlines' pilot union.



In July, Bashkir Airlines pilots went on a one-day strike. They were
protesting monthly salaries below the industry average of 23,000 rubles
($750) and demanding a commitment by management to rest times mandated by
law, Prikhodko said.



While Bashkir adheres to the maximum allowed 80 flying hours per month --
which is in line with international norms -- Prikhodko said that "some
airlines are having their crews flying double that norm -- up to 150 hours.
There are not enough pilots."



The problem is affecting airlines large and small.



No. 2 carrier Sibir recently hired and retrained 14 pilots from a smaller
regional airline, said Vladislav Bayev, head of Sibir's trade union. But
that is only a stop-gap measure to compensate for the 19 pilots who left
Sibir earlier this year in search of better wages with other airlines.



The shortage of pilots, coupled with increased demand, is forcing the
industry to take desperate measures.



"Without extending flying hour limits, it has become impossible to meet the
orders from management," Bayev said. "The flight plans we get -- if divided
by [the number of] crews -- is over the 80-hour standard flight time. That's
not because of some force majeure, somebody on sick leave or getting
married." Sibir did not reply to repeated requests for comment.



Flying up to 100 hours per month is only allowed three times a year.



Boichuk said the industry lives by regulations that were temporarily
adopted in 1993 and have yet to be updated.



As airlines come under increasing pressure to meet demand, the unions
claim that some are cutting back on benefits and reducing adequate rest
times.



"Conscientious airlines still provide them in their social packages, but
not all," Boichuk said.



"Aeroflot complies with current regulations. We have had a check by
transportation inspectors two months ago and no violations have been found,"
Aeroflot chief pilot Anatoly Yakimchuk said in an interview.





In January an Aeroflot pilot, 54-year-old Alexander Krasovsky, died from a
heart attack in the cockpit shortly before takeoff from Hong Kong.



Yakimchuk said that an investigation found that Krasovsky's death could not
be traced to any violations of mandatory rest times by Aeroflot.



But other airlines commit gross violations of the maximum allowed flying
time, Yakimchuk said. "They keep afloat by increasing flight hours."



"If they have not rested enough and must worry about how to support their
families, pilots cannot concentrate on their jobs," Georg Fongem, vice
president of the International Federation of Air Line Pilots' Associations,
said in a telephone interview from Germany.



"This is not in the interest of [passenger] safety."



In December, IFALPA, which represents more than 100,000 professional pilots
in 90 countries, wrote to President Vladimir Putin outlining the problems of
Russian pilots. They have not received a reply, Fongem said.



While the trials and tribulations of Russian pilots remain largely out of
the public eye, the profession has also lost much of the prestige and
glamour that once lured prospective recruits in Soviet times.



An ongoing poll on www.pprune.org, an online forum for pilots, found as of
Thursday that 38 percent of respondents said the job is still glamorous,
despite eroding salaries. Roughly the same number said they are "just
drivers locked in our cockpits."



"The glamorous image pilots once had is gone, especially with upcoming
low-cost airlines," said Fongem, who is a pilot for Lufthansa.



"Nevertheless in Germany we still have enough young people who would like
to be a pilot," he said.



To become a Lufthansa pilot requires up to 2 1/2 years of training. The
airline largely covers the costs, which are as high as $240,000.



In Russia, where tuition for commercial pilots is free, there are no lines
outside flight schools.



"Since Soviet times, the number of our students has fallen tenfold," said
Valery Zaorov, head of the Sasovo flight school near Ryazan.



"Where before we used to get 300 students annually -- or even as many as
500 -- this year we count only 25," Zaorov said.



A lot more young people do not clear the medical commission to be able to
enroll in a pilots' school.



"Students used to be a lot healthier," Zaorov said.



In the past there have been problems with fuel supplies to schools, many
of which use small, obsolete planes. Instructors typically earn 6,000 rubles
per month ($200), Boichuk said.



"Our graduates are finding it hard to get a job with an airline," Zaorov
said.



When it takes flight school graduates, Aeroflot gives them up to 12
months of additional training before it allows new pilots to fly
Russian-built craft.



"The quality of school training is not sufficient for us," said Gennady
Prikhodchenko, head of Aeroflot training. "They come with less knowledge
and skills."



Two years ago, Aeroflot took on board 25 graduates and plans to set up a
training program for Tu-134s and Tu-154s.



Aeroflot is deciding on how to set up its own training school, chief
pilot Yakimchuk said, as is common among major world airlines.



Since 1998 Aeroflot has lost 30 pilots to foreign airlines, among them
Korean Air and Vietnam Airlines, Yakimchuk said. A number of pilots from
Transaero now fly with Irish low-cost carrier Ryanair, said Oleg
Cherepanov, a Transaero pilot.



"They live very well," Yakimchuk said. An Aeroflot pilot of a Boeing 777
can expect to make just over $3,000 per month, a top salary at the airline,
he said, while in a country like South Korea he would earn $12,000.



Airlines must join forces with the government to reverse the dire
situation, Boichuk said. Current crews deserve more benefits from their
employers to ensure that safety standards do not drop due to overwork.



The state must make large investments into the revival of flight schools,
Boichuk added.



"Our state has not yet understood the potential loss because it inherited
cheap labor from Soviet times. Those resources are about to expire," he
said. "If measures aren't taken, we will not have a continuity of
generations for pilots and there will be inexperienced people at the
controls."





Hiring foreign pilots would cost seven times as much, causing ticket prices
to skyrocket, he said.



"We have come to a point where [the airline business] cannot be regulated
by the rules of the market alone. Otherwise, airlines will be left without
pilots."



Lyuba Pronina

business reporter

THE MOSCOW TIMES
 
And your point is?

What's Russia got to do with anything? Other than again showing the market forces of supply and demand are irrefutable.
 
pilotyip said:
What's Russia got to do with anything? Other than again showing the market forces of supply and demand are irrefutable.
Did you read the article? Their pilot supply is very low, but wages have not come up. Supply and demand won't effect pilot wages if there were not pilots out there that will keep doing the job for less. It's obvious that these airlines are willing to risk pilot shortage, rather than to increase QOL.

It's obvious that nothing will change the attitude of many pilots, or upcomming pilots. I just thought some might want to see what the next generation of pilots can expect.

Keep in mind, there will always be a pilot out there who's idea of reasonable pay is less than the old "lowest" idea.
 
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So what you dumb a$$. In Russia, they also wait in line hours just to get a stale loaf of bread and rotting produce. Once again, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT QUIT! There is MORE $$$ to be made being a Welder or Landscape business owner. DEAL WITH IT AND MOVE ON! LIKE IT OR QUIT!
 
$9500 in Russia

I believe in Russia it is a very good wage, ave per cap income in $3500/yr range.
 
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Lequip said:
So what you dumb a$$. In Russia, they also wait in line hours just to get a stale loaf of bread and rotting produce. Once again, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT QUIT! There is MORE $$$ to be made being a Welder or Landscape business owner. DEAL WITH IT AND MOVE ON! LIKE IT OR QUIT!
Let me guess.....you are one of those guys who make the neighborhood kids call you "Captain.....(your last name). To you guys it's all about the title, not the profession.

:rolleyes:
 
pilotyip said:
I believe in Russia it is a very good wage, ave per cap income in $3500/yr range.
If that were true, why does the pilot in the example have to drive a cab for a second job? Are you willing to have to get a second job, just so you can tell everyone you are a pilot?
 
I was in Russia not to long ago I don't recall seeing anyone "waiting in line hours just to get a stale loaf of bread and rotting produce" Maybe that's because I used UUEE. Which airport did you use to enter Moscow, maybe it was UUWW? I figure with such insightful wisdom you must have gained it first hand? Or are you just spouting off again like your 737/777 BS?

The days of the commies have long since passed Russia by. Putin is actually a pretty smart guy, IMHO.
 
Right on!

Rangers-



Finally, someone has the gall to post this stuff. Personally, I couldn't agree more with your point. Also, you've managed to easily and quite correctly defend yourself from those quick "no brain" responses. Although I may have only 1400 hours, I have been in the aviation business for 8 years now. To me, there is nothing scarier then the attitude you're talking about. I believe it is also important to point out who the majority of pilots who feel this way is. I'd be willing to bet that most are under 30 years old and currently have first career job (regionals, fracs, ie). You also made another good point. In order to feel that "like it or leave", one must have no other priorities other then wearing the cool uniform and flying that cool jet. After all, how many pilots under 27 yrs old have wives, mortgages, kids, saving for retirement, saving for kids college, investing....the list goes on. I'm sure there are some, but not many. However, when mother nature bits them in the @ss, and they start wanting these things, watch that attitude change. Many pilots in the past have fought and sacrificed for the compensation and safety we have today (or should I say yesterday :) ). It hurts to see the young "professional" pilots lining up to work for the same money I made in high school.

Oh yeah...I almost forgot. Low pilot pay has NOTHING to do with supply and demand. It is all in the attitude of pilots. Haven't you guys seen all those passengers who claim that air travel is still too expensive in TGIF drinking 7 dollar beers or stuffing their fat face with fast food in the terminal? For the price of that beer or happy meal added to the ticket, things would be turning around. Passengers have the money, they just don't want to spend it. Its up to the employees to demand it from the passengers.
 
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Sticky said:
Rangers-



Finally, someone has the gull to post this stuff...
Are you high? This crap is what 75% of the posts on this site are about. OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER AGAIN!!!!!!!

and by the way...

gull
\Gull\, n. [Of Celtic origin; cf. Corn. gullan, W. gwylan.] (Zo["o]l.) One of many species of long-winged sea birds of the genus Larus and allied genera.

gall
n 1: ...6: the trait of being ... impertinent; inclined to take liberties [syn: crust, impertinence, impudence, insolence, cheekiness, freshness] v 1:
 
Thanks for the correction. Now why don't you add to this disscussion?
 
Why not Minot?

I used to live there...why not?....Freezin's The Reason!
 
pilotyip & Lequip,

I think you guys are a little off base here. There is nothing wrong with trying to change something you don't like. I don't like to hear people whine all day either, but trying to make a change for the better is great. I believe the airline pilot profession has gone the wrong direction for the last couple of years, however I'm not going to leave it just yet. I'm going to fight for a good contract and hope things get better across the board.
 
All they want, is
what all pilots want...
some gruntlement.
 
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Again I do not understand?

What does the pay in Russia have anything to do with flying for a living in the US? By June of 2007 things will start getting better, hiring, upgrades, and growing fleets. Seat movement does alot cut down winning
 
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quote from lequip:
"So what you dumb a$$. "


You're a real piece of work Lequip............

When you have nothing intelligent to say.....use name-calling and lots of CAPITALIZATION.,...... LOL :rolleyes:
 
It must not be too bad, or they would all quit.

Sooner or later market forces will stabilize the pay rate at an amount that ensures enough pilots. Supply and demand always works, just not how we want it to.
 
100LL... Again! said:
It must not be too bad, or they would all quit.

Sooner or later market forces will stabilize the pay rate at an amount that ensures enough pilots. Supply and demand always works, just not how we want it to.
Just look at this month's "Flying" magazine. Looking at the ads, there is going to be a whole new heard of lemmings looking to join the circus with the promise of Vietnam veteran retirements and one year jet captain upgrades with the forecasted expansion at the regionals.
 
How about this then!

If you like it, stick around!

Is that any better?

Rangers, I think you fail to grasp the essential point of those who espouse the if-you-don't-like-it-quit mantra. It's not about getting rid of the weaklings and it's not about the wages. It's about sticking out, through thick and thin, whatever your career brings you.

Having been through quite a of the few ups and downs that this business imposes on us I can honestly say that I find it tiresome and even boring to hear the incessant whining of those who think they're owed more than they are by this job. To these folks I unabashedly suggest that perhaps another career would suit them better. Their unhappiness is very much of concern to me - I don't want it clouding their thinking when good clear thinking is what I need from them.

I have never worked a job in aviation where there wasn't something to complain about on a daily basis. It doesn't matter whether you're working as a CFI, an airline pilot or as a corporate pilot - the BS is the same throughout the industry. What's different between aviation and the rest of the working world is that the BS usually stops when the door shuts and in a business world full of cubicles that's saying a lot!

Pilot attitudes do not have anything to do with wages but the ability of the company to generate a profit consistently does. The productivity of any particular company stems directly from the way they conduct their business. Some models work while others are too big, clunky, and just flat outmoded in the modern business climate that airlines find themselves in today. This fact is staring United, USAirways, Delta, and American straight in the face these days while other leaner and meaner business are lauging all the way to the bank.

Your article is way off point and basically inapplicable to the assertion you make. Your attempt to divine the future of aviation in America fails because you attempt to equate situations that are not comparable. The state of affairs in the former Soviet Union and, for that matter, anywhere in Europe has NOTHING to do with what's going on here.

The simple fact is that with nothing to sell and no skills to market things are what they are because they cannot be any better. Truth be told, the former Soviet states are basically third-world nations that have a long way to go to achieve a higher status. It could be argued that they really have no business having airlines in the first place - not with the economies they sport.

So, if you like what you do stick around, but don't be too surprised if this job serves up a few stinker years for you along the way! It's the nature of the beast. But if you find yourself thinking that someone's just got to fix the declining wage problems or the decline of union power you should think about another line of work. The wages will only go up when the abilty of the business to make a profit is consistent and repeatable, and the unions will only gain their power back when they are on a level playing field with the companies they bargain with. In most cases in the U.S. aviation business neither of these is about to happen anytime soon.

Again, if you like what you do, stick with it! This job has many more good days than bad - on balance.

TIS
 
What a great post!

You hit it right on the head in "succinct" terms. You can not make the job into something you would like it to be, you have to accept or reject the job as it exists.

 
Well said.

TIS said:
It's not about getting rid of the weaklings and it's not about the wages. It's about sticking out, through thick and thin, whatever your career brings you.

As Michael Chowdrey used to say: This is the life you have chosen.

To survive you must adapt.
 
Passengers have the money, they just don't want to spend it. Its up to the employees to demand it from the passengers.
The only one's you can demand a larger fare from is the business traveler that just has to pay the fare as a cost of doing business. Everyone else that may prove more difficult when you are selling a service. You can jack up the prices on gas for your car and utilities for your home because you basically have no choice because you have to have those things. But unless you have to get somewhere quickly you dont have to fly and for some until the prices came down getting on an airplane was simply a luxury beyond thier means. The LCC's have provided those passengers with that "service", and becuase of the LCC's flying the family on vacation is now possible. Most passengers just want to get from A to B to them a 737 is a 737, so they dont care if it's Southwest or U.S. Air's 737 just who's is cheaper. I think what TIS is saying is that the market and everything that goes along with it including ticket prices and employee compensation is in the end determined by the consumer. You can only charge what the passenger will pay. Just like the sucky resturaunt on the corner if the customers think it stinks the doors will close. Which is why an airline career is what it is now, the customers dont think the LCC's stink.
 
hbrow15 said:
The only one's you can demand a larger fare from is the business traveler that just has to pay the fare as a cost of doing business.
I disagree with you to some degree. I'd say the only ones you can demand a HUGE fare from are the business travellers (in some cases). ALL others I'd bet would be willing to pay at least a LITTLE more for their selected flight.

The last 3 times I flew were because of weddings and funerals. You can't change where or when someone gets married or dies, so you're stuck with whatever fares present themselves at the time. Happily for me, with fares being so absurdly cheap, it wasn't much of a hit to the pocket book. If I paid $100 for one of these tickets, would I be willing to pay $110? Sure no problem. How about $150? $200? I don't think that's too much to ask. Now, if I'm facing fares of $2000 each for my wife and I, then I may have to tell my relatives to pay respects to Aunt Cathy FOR me, but for less than the cost of dinner at a nice restaurant, I'll certainly go do it myself. To me, this is a "cost of doing business" as well - the business of family and friends.

Like someone said in another thread - people will scour the internet for hours to save $10 on a ticket, but think nothing of spending the same amount on a beer at the terminal.
 

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