Food for thought

[Mkubwa]

I'd like to run this idea up the flagpole:

Overhaul the US pilot licensing standards. Increase the difficulty of obtaining all classes of license to mirror or exceed the standards set by the EU countries for licensure.

Why?

Two equally important reasons. First, reduce the number of pilots in the labor pool thus making pilots a scarcer commodity. This will translate into higher salaries, better working conditions, and realistic career opportunities over time - for those who can cut the mustard.

And, first again, rigor is good. A higher bar will weed out those who can't demonstrate an academic or performance aptitude and will eliminate those who cannot hack the workload or want only to put forth enough effort to be an airborne taxi driver (look, cells in a petri dish can control an airplane in flight http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2004news/braindish.htm [what does this do to the perception of the profession?]. I'd rather know the guy sitting next to me has demonstrated the ability to function at a high level and whose capacities stretch beyond bagging groceries).

Oh, one more thing - any change to the licensing standards that would potentially reduce the size of the labor pool would necessarily require governmental restrictions on the hire of foreign citizens as pilots. I would propose that no foreign citizen be allowed to work as a commercial pilot in the United States unless he has been naturalized and has lived in the US for an uninterrupted period of 15 years.

I'll leave it at this for now to see the response.

 

[Whirlwind]

Actually, I think the rules over in Europe are too strict... Honestly flying isn't that hard, so why make it tougher than it needs to be...

Unless of course you think the rules should be retroactive, and you would have to go back through the courses, take the tests, etc. as if you were a new pilot.

 

[paulsalem]

Or.....

Two equally important reasons. First, reduce the number of pilots in the labor pool thus making pilots a scarcer commodity. This will translate into higher salaries, better working conditions, and realistic career opportunities over time - for those who can cut the mustard.

Or the increase in pilot demand will increase the costs where buisness will not be able to afford pilots. (or less money to maintain aircraft, resulting in poorer working conditions) Airline tickets will rise, resulting in even higher airfares, less pax for airliners, and therefore less demand for pilots.

Good for High time pilots, bad for low time pilots.

It would be intresting what an economist would say about this idea.

 

[mar]

Careful what you ask for.

Overhaul the US pilot licensing standards. Increase the difficulty of obtaining all classes of license to mirror or exceed the standards set by the EU countries for licensure.

I'd say you're ahead of your time. I predict it *will* become more difficult to be licensed through the avenue of General Aviation but not in the way you're proposing.

AOPA will kick and scream but ultimately the TSA will prevail and shut down General Aviation within, ah, let's say, 10 to 15 years.

There won't be any more Mom and Pop flight schools.
There won't be any more kids hanging out by the hangars.
And then all of these deserted airports will be bought up by real estate developers and replaced with strips malls and tract housing.

You read it here first.

 

[FN FAL]

I'd like to run this idea up the flagpole:

Overhaul the US pilot licensing standards. Increase the difficulty of obtaining all classes of license to mirror or exceed the standards set by the EU countries for licensure.

Why?

Why don't we run a flagpole up your cranalsphincter?

 

[SIG600]

The EU... there's a model standard for GA. Ever wonder why they all come over here to get their tickets? I'm with FN FAL... I know where you can put that flag pole.

 

[fr0g]

Hey! how about this idea:
You don't like the pay.. working conditions?
Well, it's a free world. Do something else. Walk. That's what I did, and that option exists for everyone. I will always cherish my short time in the airline world, but I don't like being treated like sh!t.
We should be grateful that we live in a country with so many other ways to enjoy aviation and flying. Rather than wishing aviation was for the elite, I chose to focus on what I am willing to work for and what I am not willing to work for. People only treat you like you let them.

 

[JimNtexas]

Is there the slightest evidence that Euro trained pilots are any safer than U.S. trained pilots?

I think not.

 

[paulsalem]

Hey! how about this idea:
You don't like the pay.. working conditions?
Well, it's a free world. Do something else. Walk. We should be grateful that we live in a country with so many other ways to enjoy aviation and flying. Rather than wishing aviation was for the elite, I chose to focus on what I am willing to work for and what I am not willing to work for. People only treat you like you let them.

I agree 100%

 

[wildbill]

I believe the whole intent of European rules and regulations are to seek revenge on the american way of aviation. For many years we have dominated the way things are done and now with the European Union they have decided to make our lives miserable. Why? Because they now can. With more people traveling and having the means to do so, They have chosen to dictate how and by what means. They are using capitalism to do it. Higher costs more rstrictions. We just need to turn the tables on them. Europeans coming here should have to pay the price.

 

[moxiepilot]

Mkubwa-
I think that your idea excludes one major portion of pilots, general aviation. Your idea strictly targets the professional and while that might have been the intention the only thing it would effictively do is raise the cost of a certificate.

Allow me to explain. Theoretically, anyone with enough time and money can come across a commercial or ATP rating by sheer persistence. Therefore you are shrinking the pool of applicants but not the ability of the applicant to be any better than the average current pilot. Point if case, bad doctors. Any idiot can become a doctor. That is not to say the majority isn't the most highly skilled, but I hear stories all the time of specialists who really shouldn't practice.

Does that lead to higher salaries? Maybe, but those higher salaries might just be what it takes to pay off training debt. Having worked for a number of doctors and seen their financial plight, pilots are no better off.

As for not allowing someone who has not lived in the country for 15 years to not be employed as a pilot is xenophobic and is no different than stating that a black person can't be a captain unless they've hung out with white people for 15 years. That's a crock.

I think I understand what the essence of that part of your query is, but wholeheartedly disagree. Basically what you're stating is that the pilot has to fly as a private pilot for 15 years. Which means at a 10 year career would have had to moved here at 35 years old. I didn't have this career change until about then.

Overall, interesting suggestion

 

[svcta]

In order to once and for all end the "you don't like it, get another job" crap:

Why is there anything wrong with trying to improve certain aspects of a job that you would otherwise(or already do) enjoy?

Oh, that right. There isn't. So why don't we focus on the ideas rather than the intent.

---Posted by paulsalem:
"Or the increase in pilot demand will increase the costs where buisness will not be able to afford pilots. (or less money to maintain aircraft, resulting in poorer working conditions) Airline tickets will rise, resulting in even higher airfares, less pax for airliners, and therefore less demand for pilots."

Airline tickets need to be priced higher; airline travel is not a god-given right. If you can't afford it, do what they did before deregulation: take a car. It is expensive to operate an airplane. You should know that. The flying public these days is not the same, either. It's one of the things that disappoints me the most about going to the airport.

Also, the market will bear whatever the pilot base demands. Pilots alone probably accounted(in the good days, even) for about for about 5-10% of an airplane's operating cost. That's cheap staffing. It's poor management that ruins airlines, not pilot wages. Think of all the things that go aboard the average airliner: Mail, cargo, fresh fruit, seafood, flowers, donor organs(not so fresh). People will not do without these things, and they'll pay an extra few cents for a Peruvian plum if they have to and not even think about it. So, uh.....think about it.

 

[pilotyip]

No college required then

So do it like Europe, no college degree required, they take 18 year olds and turn them into airline pilots after a year in Arizona. It that what you talking about doing to raise the bar?

 

[Sunnfun]

So do it like Europe, no college degree required, they take 18 year olds and turn them into airline pilots after a year in Arizona. It that what you talking about doing to raise the bar?

Well, if you're talking about the Lufthansa Flightschool in Arizona, one of the entry requirements for them is the A-Level, german equivalent of a 3-year college degree... And as far as I know, the requirements for the KLM, British Airways and other cadet programs do include A-Levels as well.

Oh, and just for the record: I like the US-Way much better. The european training is way to focused on groundschool and especially on teaching crap that you'll never need anyways. Average cost for a frozen ATP with about 300 hrs of flight time is about $60,000, thankyouverymuch.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

Hmmm... do European pilots have higher salaries, better working conditions, and realistic career opportunities over time? I don't think they do although the playing field gets closer to level everyday. But that isn't due to the number of pilots, it's due to the state of the industry. Whatever the case... bad idea. If EU training were so much better than US training then foreigners coming over here to train would have a hell of a time getting a job back home.

cc

 

[Sunnfun]

If EU training were so much better than US training ...

It is not. And that's the reason why JAA made it so difficult to convert anything to JAA save a Private Pilot Certificate. It is just very well protected. H.ell, just converting an IFR requires additional training and a checkride in some countries. Guess they haven't noticed all those US trained US Pilots flying big airliners into EU airspace on IFR flight plans every day...

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

It is not. And that's the reason why JAA made it so difficult to convert anything to JAA save a Private Pilot Certificate. It is just very well protected.

EXACTLY!

 

[anjinoo7]

Great idea with the protectionism aspect, truly a pro union belief. Incidentally, the EU is the centerpiece of unions and we can see by their 15% unemployment rate this has really worked out for them.
I seem to recall recently that Air Italia wanted the EU to slap British Airways because they were offering lower fares than Italia in and out of Italy.
It's called the free market, competition etc. We see it every day and that is what allows us to have so many choices, choose the best product at the lowest price, and demand the best performance. What's amazing is that the history of a market free in this country has made you a lucky person. You were fortunate enough to be born here and fall into the lap of the resulting economy our forefathers helped design. If we were anything like the EU, you would be talking about how to go to another country to train and work instead of talking about protecting your own gravy train.