FlyI Files Ch. 11 BK

[radarlove]

I know, you were born breached and fell on your head, and then you were breast fed till you were 23. Tell your wife or girlfriend to burp you and put you to bed.

imp: :nuts:

Translated: "I hate being pointed out an idiot, so I'll throw a tantrum rather than admit that I lecture on a lot of subjects on which I am unfamiliar."

Next up comes the, "I'm sick of arguing about this, I'm not going to reply anymore" answer.

Let me know if you need any links to bankruptcy law, I assume you are not familiar enough with search engines to be able to find them on your own.

"Classic Chapter 11 liquidation", you are funny, funny. Ok, actually you are stupid, stupid, but pretty much everyone here has figured that out already.

 

[lowecur]

Oh yeah, lowcur, how exactly does "continue its operations" equal "liquidation"?

I'm not arguing that they won't eventuall convert to Chapter 7, but there is no such thing as "Chapter 11 liquidation".

Bedtime story:

Yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus.....Chapt 7 does exist. But you also have to understand as the legal community does that you can use Chapt 11 reorganization to sell your assets and linger awhile longer........this is known as a "Chapt 11 liquidation." It will never appear in the court documents as a liquidation, but rest assured the term and practice is well known throughout the Bankruptcy Legal Community. Don't believe me????????....Type in a Google Search for Chapt 11 liquidation and read some of the articles.

By the way, Kerry Skeen is just biding his time hoping that a sugardaddy will come out of the woodwork. My guess is the airline industry will just let Flyi die a natural death rather than prolong the agony any further through the purchase of the existing assets in the next couple of months.

Are you asleep yet?

 

[Crucianpilot]

Ty, General Lee's post said Leonard was talking about Indy air's pricing being irresponsible, not Airtran's pricing.

 

[lowecur]

Translated: "I hate being pointed out an idiot, so I'll throw a tantrum rather than admit that I lecture on a lot of subjects on which I am unfamiliar." Tantrums are good for stress.

Next up comes the, "I'm sick of arguing about this, I'm not going to reply anymore" answer. "Im sick of arguing about this, I'm not going to reply anymore.

Let me know if you need any links to bankruptcy law, OK. I assume you are not familiar enough with search engines to be able to find them on your own. Tell me about search engines as I need a new one. Do you know where I can get a good deal on spark plugs?

"Classic Chapter 11 liquidation", you are funny, funny. Actually, I'm a scream. Ok, actually you are stupid, stupid, Ooooooo, you are such a vicious person but pretty much everyone here has figured that out already.

......

 

[Traderd]

Oh yeah, lowcur, how exactly does "continue its operations" equal "liquidation"?

I'm not arguing that they won't eventuall convert to Chapter 7, but there is no such thing as "Chapter 11 liquidation".

Perhaps you should notify the Washington State Bar about this fact - it appears one of their own is taking credit for participation in a couple of them as noted here:


http://www.prestongates.com/people/profile.asp?id=105

Marc L. BarrecaPartner
Finance, Insolvency and Real Estate, Energy and Utilities, Global Telecom and Media


Representation of T & W Financial Services in its Chapter 11 liquidation
Representation of Jay Jacobs, Inc. in its Chapter 11 liquidation
Representation of Garden Botanika, Inc. in its Chapter 11 liquidation

as differentiated from the chapter 11 reorganization:


Representation of VECTRA Technologies, Inc., a nuclear technology contractor, in its Chapter 11 reorganization
Representation of Engle Farms dairy in its Chapter 11 reorganization
Representation of WinterBrook Corporation in its Chapter 11 reorganization

Semantics? I don't know. But I see his credentials and I'm guessing he would have a good idea on the proper wording in a listing of his "representative cases." I would hate to think he is claiming participation in an event that doesn't exist.

Perhaps you can contact his firm at the address or numbers provided and inform them of this discrepancy.

 

[SWPA Pilot]

So when will the last FlyI flight take place?

 

[radarlove]

Perhaps you should notify the Washington State Bar about this fact

Um, ok. Let's take an attorny's marketing material and argue it as the law of the land. Not.

Ya can't file Ch.11 to liquidate, per the meaning of the term "liquidate". They're two seprate animals. You can unwind and preserve value by selling whole chunks (or the whole), but that is not "liquidation".

Arguing semantics with pilots gets to be a bit of a chore, but the fact that some lawyer used a shorthand term the a layman might understand does not change the fundamental difference between Ch. 7 and Ch. 11. There really is a difference--it involves involving a trustee to "liquidate", or allowing the debtor to remain in possesion (as in "DIP") to preserve as much value as possible.

A company files Ch.11 to AVOID FORCED LIQUIDATION, or that liquidation that would be brought on by creditors wanting their money now. That's why it's called "bankruptcy protection", because under Ch. 11 you are protected from creditors seizing assets (except, notably, aircraft, train cars and a couple of other exceptions).

Do I think that Flyi will eventually shut down and the parts sold off? Yep.

But there is a fundamental difference between how the two Chapters of the law work and it gives the folks who work at Flyi a disservice to make pronouncements that are incorrect.

Here's my prediction: the auction process will not work, the creditors will file a petition for a Trustee to be appointed and to have the case converted to Ch. 7 and liquidation will commence.

The auction process, at least according to the press release, is currently designed to preserve value by keeping the company operating. That, again, is a fundamental difference from "liquidation".

Oh yeah, lowcur is still an idiot.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, General Lee's post said Leonard was talking about Indy air's pricing being irresponsible, not Airtran's pricing.

Uh, that's a big 10-4 there, Rubber Duck, but there was an implication inherent in his statement that I guess you missed.

The part I was responding to was the General's assertion that "even Joe Leonard called the pricing irresponsible".

Which would be like saying, "Even Bozo thought Chuck Yogurt was a clown" or "Even Homer Simpson found him cartoonish".

 

[General Lee]

General, our pricing at AirTran is "responsible" pricing, because we make money at our prices.

One could certainly say that Delta's pricing has been irresponsible, since they were selling seats at prices below the cost of flying those seats.

Well, ok, then. What? It is tough to do that when you don't have the pricing power anymore in ATL. We are in the middle of major pay cuts---so I guess you are happy we are getting our costs in line to fight you guys? After we go lower than you, maybe your company will force you to do the same, right? That would be great TY!!!! I can't wait to see that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Patriot328]

For Indy's pricing being irresponsible, yeah well it was. Go take a look at what Valutran's initial fares were like out of ATL (to IAD no less) and see how irresponsible those were as well.

*drumroll* $29.....

EDIT: OOPS I could only find a $51 fare (some $35 for students as well)

http://web.archive.org/web/19970213064332/www.valujet.com/atlf.html


And let us not forget WN's $19 fun fares back in the 80s.. even counting inflation, those were pretty freakin low.

Problem wasn't the low fares per se, but the inability to build up a customer base that would tolerate higher prices. Boyd was right, a lot of the growth in traffic that will disappear when ultra low fares disappear as well.

Those fare sales weren't really the problem. It's the capacity of the system that will not allow a fare increase to stick and still have the loads to make a profit.

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, ok, then. What? It is tough to do that when you don't have the pricing power anymore in ATL.

I think Delta has a lot more pricing power than they think, but they have squandered $6 bil trying to fight AirTran for the bottom customers. I said three years ago that if they didn't stop doing that, that Mullin would be bye-bye, and the end result could be bankruptcy. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, right?

We are in the middle of major pay cuts---so I guess you are happy we are getting our costs in line to fight you guys?

None of us at Airtran are happy that you guys are taking (more) pay cuts. That just makes things worse for everyone. However, our union has done their research and we have found that concessions will not be necessary from our pilot group, in fact, we are looking for modest increases. Also, we have conducted multiple pollings of the membership, and find that the vast majority of our pilots are looking for improvements in pay, QOL and benefits.

After we go lower than you, maybe your company will force you to do the same, right? That would be great TY!!!! I can't wait to see that.

Sorry you feel that way, General. That would just be a losing game for you guys, because you'll never get your costs lower than ours- we are hedged, our equipment is new and mostly waranteed, our employees junior. If I were you, I'd be hoping the AirTran pilots stand tall and get an improved contract, not a concessionary one.

 

[FL717]

For Indy's pricing being irresponsible, yeah well it was. Go take a look at what Valutran's initial fares were like out of ATL (to IAD no less) and see how irresponsible those were as well.

*drumroll* $29.....

EDIT: OOPS I could only find a $51 fare (some $35 for students as well)

http://web.archive.org/web/19970213064332/www.valujet.com/atlf.html


And let us not forget WN's $19 fun fares back in the 80s.. even counting inflation, those were pretty freakin low.

Problem wasn't the low fares per se, but the inability to build up a customer base that would tolerate higher prices. Boyd was right, a lot of the growth in traffic that will disappear when ultra low fares disappear as well.

Those fare sales weren't really the problem. It's the capacity of the system that will not allow a fare increase to stick and still have the loads to make a profit.

Not sure who "Valutran" is. I did a search and no such company exists.

But as far as "AirTran" is concerned.... it makes no difference what the ticket price is IF the company is able to make ends meet as part of the business plan....which unlike Independence Air.......... AirTran was/has/is able to do..... and since you brought it up.... Southwest has as well.

As far as the whole debate brought up by others about Delta costs........... lowering costs versus being a profitable operation are two completely different animals.

I don't believe simply lowering salaries will turn any bankrupt carrier to a profit..... in fact I know it won't. There are other solutions, unfortunately these are solutions that needed to be implemented several years ago.

Simply having low salaries to begin with won't make a successful company (i.e. Vanguard, Legend, Midway, Access Air, Trans Meridian, Southeast, etc etc.). Also... contrary to popular slams that people make on these forums.... another company having lower salaries will NOT neccessarily lower your salary. Case in point.... United and Delta both signed incredibly lucrative contracts with their Pilots while ALL of the aforementioned companies were doing business. These other lower paid Pilots at other companies didn't stop the United or Delta Pilots from getting it all. The problem now is the poor decisions made by management for many years.... and now they have to lower costs, and salaries are the quickest surest way.

As far as AirTran is concerned, regardless of the paycuts at the bankrupt carriers, we will not be taking ANY sort of paycuts or concessions, and short of bankruptcy proceeding, the company cannot force them on us. Of course our management will ask (isn't that what mangement does?) because they want to now compare us to the carriers in bankruptcy, but sorry.... we are not even close, being that we are still showing a profit so far for this year, and can continue to make ends meet at the current status quo.

What happens tomorrow, or next year......who knows, and quite frankly... I don't sit around dwelling on it like many people..... life is too short.

 

[lowecur]

Um, ok. Let's take an attorny's marketing material and argue it as the law of the land. Not. What a jackass!

Ya can't file Ch.11 to liquidate, per the meaning of the term "liquidate". Wrong, you can file Chapt 11 to liquidate. They're two seprate animals. You can unwind and preserve value by selling whole chunks (or the whole), but that is not "liquidation". Yes it is!

Arguing semantics with pilots gets to be a bit of a chore, but the fact that some lawyer used a shorthand term(it's not a shorthand term, it's part of the Bankruptcy Code) the a layman might understand does not change the fundamental difference between Ch. 7 and Ch. 11. There really is a difference--it involves involving a trustee to "liquidate", or allowing the debtor to remain in possesion (as in "DIP") to preserve as much value as possible.

A company files Ch.11 to AVOID FORCED LIQUIDATION, or that liquidation that would be brought on by creditors wanting their money now. That's why it's called "bankruptcy protection", because under Ch. 11 you are protected from creditors seizing assets (except, notably, aircraft, train cars and a couple of other exceptions). But you can still liquidate.

Do I think that Flyi will eventually shut down and the parts sold off? Yep. Now that's liquidation.

But there is a fundamental difference between how the two Chapters of the law work and it gives the folks who work at Flyi a disservice to make pronouncements that are incorrect. We are just speaking the truth there Daniel Webster.

Here's my prediction: the auction process will not work, the creditors will file a petition for a Trustee to be appointed and to have the case converted to Ch. 7 and liquidation will commence. Are you a prognosticator like me?

The auction process, at least according to the press release, is currently designed to preserve value by keeping the company operating. That, again, is a fundamental difference from "liquidation". No it's not!

Oh yeah, lowcur is still an genius.

I know.......now read my next response there Daniel Webster. Maybe you'll learn something, and next time you won't open your big mouth and insert your foot.

 

[lowecur]

From the anals of the new Bankruptcy Code......for lummox's

This is verbatim from the IRS Manuel. I think you should petition the Supreme Court to have it written your way. Who knows, perhaps you'll get that new appointment yourself to the Supreme Court.

5.9.2.3 (08-01-2005)
Chapters in Bankruptcy

1. Bankruptcy Options. Bankruptcy is separated into two general categories:
   1. Liquidation — Chapter 7 and liquidating Chapter 11 — liquidation of assets to pay off debts; or
   2. Reorganization — Chapters 11, 12, 13 — reorganizing to pay creditors over a period of time through a plan.

 

[holdon]

This is verbatim from the code there Daniel Webster. I think you should petition the Supreme Court to have it written your way. Who knows, perhaps you'll get that new appointment yourself to the Supreme Court.

5.9.2.3 (08-01-2005)
Chapters in Bankruptcy

1. Bankruptcy Options. Bankruptcy is separated into two general categories:
   1. Liquidation — Chapter 7 and liquidating Chapter 11 — liquidation of assets to pay off debts; or
   2. Reorganization — Chapters 11, 12, 13 — reorganizing to pay creditors over a period of time through a plan.

Ding Ding......We have a Winner! I think he got you on this one.

 

[lowecur]

Ding Ding......We have a Winner! I think he got you on this one.

Actually I stuck my foot in my mouth, iccch! This is not from the Bankruptcy Code...........it's from the IRS Manuel. :0

But I guess that still is much better than "marketing material" from some lawyer, eh Daniel Webster?

http://www.irs.gov/irm/part5/ch09s02.html

 

[G4G5]

Jetblue will never pick up the A319's not with over 100 ERJ195's on order.

Just thinking out loud. Spirit flies the A319 with the IAE 2500 motors. They are looking to replace their MD80's with A319's with IAE2500's. They could easily take over the A319s and the IAD base with a descent Ch11 bid. The judge would favor a combined aircraft and gate bid, it favors pleasing more creditors. If Spirt were to offer to take a few employees, then the deal could easily meet the judges approval, with a turn key bid.

Jetblue would really have to make a more financially pleasing offer if all they want is the gate space.

 

[radarlove]

Right, that's from the IRS manual. If you read more closely, there is no mention of "liquidating Ch. 11"

Plans to sell off all assets in an orderly manner can be submitted to the court, which can be confused with actual liquidation. What you read is a summary line, not a part of the bankruptcy code.

In this case, Flyi did NOT SUBMIT A PLAN TO LIQUIDATE. They submitted under the Ch.11 "reorganization" section.

If you're arguing that they might liquidate down the road, either by conversion to a Ch. 7 or by submitting a plan to sell all assets, then you are making the same argument I am.

In the interim, Flyi's filing is not a liquidation, Ch. 11, Ch. 7 or even IRS--which is where you had to go to find the phrase--note, you didn't find it from a bankruptcy court law, you found it from the tax code.

Lowcur is still an idiot, he still does not understand bankruptcy. Please point to the part in the filing (it is available publically) or to the part in the corporate press release (avalaible publically) where they refer to liquidation.

They don't.

They're currently under a Ch. 11 reorganization. They have not filed a liquidating plan.

 

[SWA/FO]

Is this the new bankruptcy law that went into effect in October? Why didn't they file before then? (Sorry if this has been covered)

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

General,

Do you have your resume in over at Airtran?