FlyI Files Ch. 11 BK

[Ty Webb]

Well, ok, then. What? It is tough to do that when you don't have the pricing power anymore in ATL.

I think Delta has a lot more pricing power than they think, but they have squandered $6 bil trying to fight AirTran for the bottom customers. I said three years ago that if they didn't stop doing that, that Mullin would be bye-bye, and the end result could be bankruptcy. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, right?

We are in the middle of major pay cuts---so I guess you are happy we are getting our costs in line to fight you guys?

None of us at Airtran are happy that you guys are taking (more) pay cuts. That just makes things worse for everyone. However, our union has done their research and we have found that concessions will not be necessary from our pilot group, in fact, we are looking for modest increases. Also, we have conducted multiple pollings of the membership, and find that the vast majority of our pilots are looking for improvements in pay, QOL and benefits.

After we go lower than you, maybe your company will force you to do the same, right? That would be great TY!!!! I can't wait to see that.

Sorry you feel that way, General. That would just be a losing game for you guys, because you'll never get your costs lower than ours- we are hedged, our equipment is new and mostly waranteed, our employees junior. If I were you, I'd be hoping the AirTran pilots stand tall and get an improved contract, not a concessionary one.

 

[FL717]

For Indy's pricing being irresponsible, yeah well it was. Go take a look at what Valutran's initial fares were like out of ATL (to IAD no less) and see how irresponsible those were as well.

*drumroll* $29.....

EDIT: OOPS I could only find a $51 fare (some $35 for students as well)

http://web.archive.org/web/19970213064332/www.valujet.com/atlf.html


And let us not forget WN's $19 fun fares back in the 80s.. even counting inflation, those were pretty freakin low.

Problem wasn't the low fares per se, but the inability to build up a customer base that would tolerate higher prices. Boyd was right, a lot of the growth in traffic that will disappear when ultra low fares disappear as well.

Those fare sales weren't really the problem. It's the capacity of the system that will not allow a fare increase to stick and still have the loads to make a profit.

Not sure who "Valutran" is. I did a search and no such company exists.

But as far as "AirTran" is concerned.... it makes no difference what the ticket price is IF the company is able to make ends meet as part of the business plan....which unlike Independence Air.......... AirTran was/has/is able to do..... and since you brought it up.... Southwest has as well.

As far as the whole debate brought up by others about Delta costs........... lowering costs versus being a profitable operation are two completely different animals.

I don't believe simply lowering salaries will turn any bankrupt carrier to a profit..... in fact I know it won't. There are other solutions, unfortunately these are solutions that needed to be implemented several years ago.

Simply having low salaries to begin with won't make a successful company (i.e. Vanguard, Legend, Midway, Access Air, Trans Meridian, Southeast, etc etc.). Also... contrary to popular slams that people make on these forums.... another company having lower salaries will NOT neccessarily lower your salary. Case in point.... United and Delta both signed incredibly lucrative contracts with their Pilots while ALL of the aforementioned companies were doing business. These other lower paid Pilots at other companies didn't stop the United or Delta Pilots from getting it all. The problem now is the poor decisions made by management for many years.... and now they have to lower costs, and salaries are the quickest surest way.

As far as AirTran is concerned, regardless of the paycuts at the bankrupt carriers, we will not be taking ANY sort of paycuts or concessions, and short of bankruptcy proceeding, the company cannot force them on us. Of course our management will ask (isn't that what mangement does?) because they want to now compare us to the carriers in bankruptcy, but sorry.... we are not even close, being that we are still showing a profit so far for this year, and can continue to make ends meet at the current status quo.

What happens tomorrow, or next year......who knows, and quite frankly... I don't sit around dwelling on it like many people..... life is too short.

 

[lowecur]

Um, ok. Let's take an attorny's marketing material and argue it as the law of the land. Not. What a jackass!

Ya can't file Ch.11 to liquidate, per the meaning of the term "liquidate". Wrong, you can file Chapt 11 to liquidate. They're two seprate animals. You can unwind and preserve value by selling whole chunks (or the whole), but that is not "liquidation". Yes it is!

Arguing semantics with pilots gets to be a bit of a chore, but the fact that some lawyer used a shorthand term(it's not a shorthand term, it's part of the Bankruptcy Code) the a layman might understand does not change the fundamental difference between Ch. 7 and Ch. 11. There really is a difference--it involves involving a trustee to "liquidate", or allowing the debtor to remain in possesion (as in "DIP") to preserve as much value as possible.

A company files Ch.11 to AVOID FORCED LIQUIDATION, or that liquidation that would be brought on by creditors wanting their money now. That's why it's called "bankruptcy protection", because under Ch. 11 you are protected from creditors seizing assets (except, notably, aircraft, train cars and a couple of other exceptions). But you can still liquidate.

Do I think that Flyi will eventually shut down and the parts sold off? Yep. Now that's liquidation.

But there is a fundamental difference between how the two Chapters of the law work and it gives the folks who work at Flyi a disservice to make pronouncements that are incorrect. We are just speaking the truth there Daniel Webster.

Here's my prediction: the auction process will not work, the creditors will file a petition for a Trustee to be appointed and to have the case converted to Ch. 7 and liquidation will commence. Are you a prognosticator like me?

The auction process, at least according to the press release, is currently designed to preserve value by keeping the company operating. That, again, is a fundamental difference from "liquidation". No it's not!

Oh yeah, lowcur is still an genius.

I know.......now read my next response there Daniel Webster. Maybe you'll learn something, and next time you won't open your big mouth and insert your foot.

 

[lowecur]

From the anals of the new Bankruptcy Code......for lummox's

This is verbatim from the IRS Manuel. I think you should petition the Supreme Court to have it written your way. Who knows, perhaps you'll get that new appointment yourself to the Supreme Court.

5.9.2.3 (08-01-2005)
Chapters in Bankruptcy

1. Bankruptcy Options. Bankruptcy is separated into two general categories:
   1. Liquidation — Chapter 7 and liquidating Chapter 11 — liquidation of assets to pay off debts; or
   2. Reorganization — Chapters 11, 12, 13 — reorganizing to pay creditors over a period of time through a plan.

 

[holdon]

This is verbatim from the code there Daniel Webster. I think you should petition the Supreme Court to have it written your way. Who knows, perhaps you'll get that new appointment yourself to the Supreme Court.

5.9.2.3 (08-01-2005)
Chapters in Bankruptcy

1. Bankruptcy Options. Bankruptcy is separated into two general categories:
   1. Liquidation — Chapter 7 and liquidating Chapter 11 — liquidation of assets to pay off debts; or
   2. Reorganization — Chapters 11, 12, 13 — reorganizing to pay creditors over a period of time through a plan.

Ding Ding......We have a Winner! I think he got you on this one.

 

[lowecur]

Ding Ding......We have a Winner! I think he got you on this one.

Actually I stuck my foot in my mouth, iccch! This is not from the Bankruptcy Code...........it's from the IRS Manuel. :0

But I guess that still is much better than "marketing material" from some lawyer, eh Daniel Webster?

http://www.irs.gov/irm/part5/ch09s02.html

 

[G4G5]

Jetblue will never pick up the A319's not with over 100 ERJ195's on order.

Just thinking out loud. Spirit flies the A319 with the IAE 2500 motors. They are looking to replace their MD80's with A319's with IAE2500's. They could easily take over the A319s and the IAD base with a descent Ch11 bid. The judge would favor a combined aircraft and gate bid, it favors pleasing more creditors. If Spirt were to offer to take a few employees, then the deal could easily meet the judges approval, with a turn key bid.

Jetblue would really have to make a more financially pleasing offer if all they want is the gate space.

 

[radarlove]

Right, that's from the IRS manual. If you read more closely, there is no mention of "liquidating Ch. 11"

Plans to sell off all assets in an orderly manner can be submitted to the court, which can be confused with actual liquidation. What you read is a summary line, not a part of the bankruptcy code.

In this case, Flyi did NOT SUBMIT A PLAN TO LIQUIDATE. They submitted under the Ch.11 "reorganization" section.

If you're arguing that they might liquidate down the road, either by conversion to a Ch. 7 or by submitting a plan to sell all assets, then you are making the same argument I am.

In the interim, Flyi's filing is not a liquidation, Ch. 11, Ch. 7 or even IRS--which is where you had to go to find the phrase--note, you didn't find it from a bankruptcy court law, you found it from the tax code.

Lowcur is still an idiot, he still does not understand bankruptcy. Please point to the part in the filing (it is available publically) or to the part in the corporate press release (avalaible publically) where they refer to liquidation.

They don't.

They're currently under a Ch. 11 reorganization. They have not filed a liquidating plan.

 

[SWA/FO]

Is this the new bankruptcy law that went into effect in October? Why didn't they file before then? (Sorry if this has been covered)

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

General,

Do you have your resume in over at Airtran?

 

[lowecur]

Right, that's from the IRS manual. If you read more closely, there is no mention of "liquidating Ch. 11" No, but they say you can liquidate in Chapt 11.

Plans to sell off all assets in an orderly manner can be submitted to the court, which can be confused with actual liquidation. No confusion, just a different way to liquidate. What you read is a summary line, not a part of the bankruptcy code.

In this case, Flyi did NOT SUBMIT A PLAN TO LIQUIDATE. They submitted under the Ch.11 "reorganization" section. They are really sneaky, don't you think?

If you're arguing that they might liquidate down the road, either by conversion to a Ch. 7 or by submitting a plan to sell all assets, then you are making the same argument I am. No, I'm not. You are saying there is no such thing as a Chapt 11 liquidation, the IRS and many bankruptcy attorneys say otherwise.

In the interim, Flyi's filing is not a liquidation, Ch. 11, Ch. 7 or even IRS--which is where you had to go to find the phrase--note, you didn't find it from a bankruptcy court law, you found it from the tax code. Are you denegrating the IRS?

Lowcur is still an genius, he still understands much more about bankruptcy that me. AND, I get an A for effort. Please point to the part in the filing (it is available publically) or to the part in the corporate press release (avalaible publically) where they refer to liquidation. Hey, it's just my opinion that they will try and liquidate in Chapt 11. Whether they are successful will be determined shortly.....if not, it's on to 7 where a trustee will be more than glad to help.

They don't.

They're currently under a Ch. 11 reorganization. They have not filed a liquidating plan.

Yet. I'll bet you have a law degree and flunked the bar and you are now clerking for Joe Pesce.

 

[radarlove]

For anyone interested, here is the basic concept of bankruptcy:

1) A company realizes that it may not be able to pay all of its creditors. It enters the "zone of insolvency". Even though it is not bankrupt, management has certain responsibilities to not distribute items of value outside the normal course of business

2) It becomes clear that there is no way out of this "zone of insolvency". Payments are about to (or have already been missed). Creditors have the capability to obtain a court order, grab a sheriff and seize assets. "Assets" include everything from the copy machine to the corporate checking account.

3) Management realizes (sometimes this is opportunistic) that the company will have more value as a "going concern" rather than as a collection of assets being slowly carted away by creditors. They go to the court and they ask for "protection", generally under Chapter 11 of the bankruptcy law.

4) Usually it's a a rubber-stamp by the judge. As soon as the filing is approved, all attempts to grab assets must stop. Even telephone calls are forbidden. Trade creditors who have been paid have to continue to grant the same terms to the bankrupt company.

5) Management has assumed control (immediately before losing it) and is considered to be "debtor in possession". They have to continue to manage properly and have an exclusive time to file a plan to pay off the creditors. This is called the "exclusivity period". Once its up (it gets extended easily) then creditors can file their own plan (usually liquidation).

6) If it doesn't look like it's going to work out, the creditors can force the company in to Chapter 7. Management is removed, a Trustee is appointed to liquidate the company.

7) If management can get everyone to agree, it can cancel its stock, print up new stock, give that new stock, plus cash (if it has any) to its creditors on a cents-on-the-dollar or better ratio and emerges, a'la Continental Airlines.

Right now, Flyi has gotten to step 4 from above. They have not filed a plan, they have not started liquidating, they have not even made a motion to sell any assets.

Numbnuts talk from Lowcur about "liquidating Ch. 11" should be valued at pretty much zero.

Down the road, with plenty of notice, Flyi may file a plan that breaks up chunks of the company. But that is not (!) liquidating, as "liquidating" is used under bankruptcy law. There, a trustee ceases operations and sells at auction as quickly as feasible (before assets become "impaired") and distributes what's left.

In a reorg (which is what this is, so far) assets are maintained together as a going operation. Management may not be able to get creditors to agree to take stock in the "new" (old) company, if that happens, they may (may!) be able to convince the court to allow the current DIP managers to sell off assets rather than appoint a Trustee to do the same.

Creditors generally won't allow this, because they have a healthy distrust that the chumps that squandered their money earlier will manage the selling process well--they tend to think that management just wants to hang onto the gravy train as long as possible.

Now lowcur, give us YOUR take on bankrtuptcy law. I'm all ears.

 

[lowecur]

For anyone interested, here is the basic concept of bankruptcy: Thank you, no one is.

Now lowcur, give us YOUR take on bankrtuptcy law. No. I'm all ears. Do you look like Alfred E. Newman?

Questions:

• Does the IRS recognize both liquidation and reorganization under Chapt 11?
• Is the IRS definition of liquidation under Chapt 11 bogus?

You didn't answer my question.....Do you clerk for My Cousin Vinny?

 

[radarlove]

Questions:

• Does the IRS recognize both liquidation and reorganization under Chapt 11?

This doesn't even make any sense. What are you talking about? From a tax standpoint? If you're talking taxes, once either a Ch. 7 or Ch. 11 is filed, the IRS treats capital gains differently, when assets are written down and transferred--also, they no longer consider the cancelling of debt to be "income", but I'm not sure I have a clue what you're asking.

• Is the IRS definition of liquidation under Chapt 11 bogus?

How 'come you never learned how to properly quote? Anyway, this question, too, doesn't make any sense, unless you're talking about the tax treatment for transferring assets, as discussed above. The IRS doesn't "define" Chapter 11, that's part of the US Code.

The IRS does have a set of rules for a reorganization under bankruptcy laws, but they're not very interesting. They mostly just allow you to change values/cancel debts with no adverse tax treatments. As far as the IRS is concerned, you're either in bankrutpcy or not. If you're in, you use these sets of rules. If you're not, you use those sets of rules. The IRS has no responsibility for "defining" bankruptcy.

You found an IRS web page dealing with assets being sold by bankrupt companies.

 

[Traderd]

Radar,

I have been lucky enough to avoid any personal contact with a bankruptcy attorney. My time with lawyers has been spent on the business of getting incorporated from time to time, buying into LLPs, real estate and aircraft purchases, the normal run of the mill kind of stuff.

This is an interesting topic. You hold a strong opinion here and I was wondering what your credentials might be that you are so certain that a chapter 11 liquidation doesn't exist. Sounds like you know your stuff.

Assuming you have the credentials sufficient to warrant your strongly held opinion, could you expand a bit on an S363 sale to liquidate under chapter 11 outside of a reorganization and how it would differ from a chapter 11 prepack? Could FlyI petition for the 363 or would a creditor be required to initiate? He$$, for that matter I'm unsure if the local of incorporation is relevant and I have no idea the state in which FlyI incorporated.

When approved, an S363 sale always looked like a chapter 11 liquidation to me but then again, I doubt that I have the depth of knowledge in this subject matter as you.