Flowback vs. Jets for Jobs

[furloughfodder]

I have a question to pose....trying to figure out the difference here.

I talk to my furloughed buds at USAirways, and understand that every USairways furloughed pilot has been offered the chance to fly as RJ Captain at one of the various commuters operating as USAir Express.

I also understand that only a very small fraction of the nearly 3000 furloughed AA pilots have been offered the chance to "Flowback" to Eagle.

What is the difference in these agreements, and why doesn't AA allow all of their furloughed guys to fly as Captain at Eagle?

Thanks

 

[charlie2]

One of the differences is that flowback can happen with NO expansion at the regional and the J4J deal is that mainline pilots are offered some of the openings due to expansion...I think

 

[LearLove]

I can answer the question based on US Air J4J guys. As for the APL guys (Affected Pilots List = furloughed mainline guys) they have gone up and down and up and down and up and down again for guys in ref to positions at PSA, Mesa, chq, TSA (note:I'm not sure but I think TSA has U J4J guys). As far a I know there are no APL guys at thoes carriers that are not Capts by now. If they are still FO's at one of thoes carriers then its by choise.

That leaves MidAtlantic. There are plenty of guys from the APL waiting to come as Capt. Some are still at CHQ, Mesa, PSA or TSA as Capt and some are doing other things while waiting for MDA classes to restart.

This past summer they opened MDA to the CEL (Combined Elligebility List = WO guys, ALG, PDT, PSA) guys. There are around 200 of us CEL guys at MDA. It will be a very long time before a CEL guy sees the left seat at MDA.

There are also APL guys that are FO's at MDA and some waiting to come as FO's. This pasat summer many APL guys didn't want to come as FO's to MDA but know that BK has set in its a diff. situation. The APL guys cannot bump a CEL guy once he is at MDA.

Things would move alot quicker if we didn't stop delivery of the 170's. We have 25 now. Supposed to get 3 more for 28 but not sure if its going to happen. Word on the street is no more 170's but 190's. This won't happen until JB starts to get their 190's plus we (US Air) need cash or financing to get them which is an obvious issue.

 

[charlie2]

Are you serious? There are 200 US Scare Express pilots that have FLOWED UP to fly jets at MidstupidAtlantic?

 

[Mr Hat]

J4J= USAir will give you more jets but they must be staffed by furloughed USair guys until they are recalled....afterwards you get to keep the seats. Thats my understanding of it....

Flowbacks...as an ExpressJet guy, I can comment on this one. There are alot of issues at AMR with their flowthrough/flowback and I don't know the in's and outs of their system.....Ours worked as written. Basically for years, ExpressJet pilots had a right to Flow through to Continental. Once your number came up they did a small interview to verify your log book and medical then you were on your way. Continental hired 1 Express pilot for every 3 off the street pilot. When CAL furloughs, the FLOWBACK happens. There is an equal number of positions available to flowback into as there were Express pilots who flowed UP to CAL. In our case it was like 400 something. Ex-Express pilots came back at their Express hire date, on top of the list.....off the street CAL pilots flowed back into their "relative" seniority based on their CAL date of hire....Some CAL folks flowed back as junior Captains, some flowed back as FO's and some even Flowed back but got furloughed by Express (how do you like that, furloughed twice in one shot!)

So thats the deal, J4J is totally different than the Flowthrough/Flowback provisions. I am definatly in favor of Flowthrough/Flowback provisions.

 

[LearLove]

Are you serious? There are 200 US Scare Express pilots that have FLOWED UP to fly jets at MidstupidAtlantic?

Actually there are about 150 now that I look at the list alittle better. Maybe alittle less or more, but you get the pic. I wouldn't call it a FLOW UP either. Its about an 8 grand/year pay cut from Dash8 FO at ALG to MDA E-170 FO.

BTW there are plenty of Capts (APL guys) at MDA that have less time and exp than some of us WO guys in the right seat. With that said I'd like to add that its not a bust on any APL guy or WO either. Everyone I've woked with here has been great.

 

[RUhiring?]

Mr. Hat....you are mostly correct. Except that the US Furloughed guys staff only 1/2 of the seats created by new aircraft deliveries.

 

[fatburger]

LearLove-

Why take an 8 grand pay cut to go to MidAtlantic? Is it because it is a jet or is it possible to flow up to a mainline position?

-fatburger-

 

[AA717driver]

The reason there are a relatively low number of AA furloughees that flowed back is that many of the initial 1200-1500 furloughees were TWA people.

The transition agreement signed by AMR and APA specifically excluded any TWA pilots from flowing back to AE. That was changed with the concessionary agreement in March 2003. The first group of furloughees that got to flow back via this agreement were from May 2003.

There was a small group of AA hires from the spring and summer of '01 who were furloughed immediately after 9/11 but who were cut out of the flowback because they didn't meet the arbitrary "minimum flight experience" for upgrading at AE. Never mind that most of those restricted out of the flowback were fighter types with less than 3,000 hours. I don't know if they were ever allowed to flowback or not.

This is a crappy deal for all concerned.TC

 

[charlie2]

Soooo... if the TWA idiots were smart enough to find a union that would accept them then they coudl have date of hire seniourity?

 

[AA717driver]

Exactly WTF does that inane statement have to do with this subject?

I don't know whether you're Eagle, AA or just something that managed to float to the top of the water in the toilet bowl. Stick to C&R, you'll be appreciated there.

 

[millhouse21]

Trans States does have a JFJ agreement but we only got one US jet after signing it. Two UsAir guys came over as capts but I think only one is still here. The funny thing is that they were only supposed to do USAir flying but, of course, crew scheduling used them wherever they wanted.

 

[328dude]

Guys and gals took the paycut to fly the jet. Not sure of the QOL is better at MDA, if it is, not sure if 8 grand was worth it.

 

[Crzipilot]

Not sure if, as i haven't looked at it recently, but I believe the CEL list can also go up to mainline. When their number is reached with a mainline opening then they can take that. Either going from PDT/ALG/PSA to MDA then mainline or bypassing MDA and up to mainline. Though of course, this depends on mainline being around and of course the history of mainline finding ways of not having to recall pilots for 10years or so. Like I said though haven't looked at the agreement recently but think I recall such wording.

 

[LearLove]

First knowbody wanted to take a paycut and when the MDA opening became available to us CEL guys it didn't look like it would be (unless you went from WO Dash Capt to MDA FO, which about 50 did as they either didn't need the $$, had wives that make $$ or other reasons). The rest of us were already downgraded thus we were at 30/hr on the Dash with no reupgrade insight. Moving over to MDA put our pay at 37/hr but unlike the ALG where a line holder gets 90+ hours per month (and easily gets 100+ with their contract w/o picking up extra flying) at MDA a line holder gets 80-85 max. Thus with the $7/hr raise it was a wash. We figured we would make the same as an MDA FO that we were making as Dash FO.

However this was not to be true for about half of the CEL guys (including myself) that came due to the aircraft deliveries being stopped under ch13.

The way it was going last summer we downgraded Dash guys/senior Dash FO's would hold a hard line by the fall 2004 if the aircraft kept comming at the planned rate as many of the mid-seniority/junior Dash FO's would come to MDA below us as the junior reserve guys. But alas, when the music stopped back in Sept04 us downgraded Dash guys/senior Dash FO's became the junior MDA FO's. Now we are on reserve and getting only 75/hr month.

At Allegheny as a senior FO I took home about $2100-2200 after taxes and 15% into my 401K. Now at MDA I take home about 1650 after taxes and 15% into my 401K.

In Jan 2005 on reserve at MDA I flew two days: 6.6 hours on 1/6 and 7.5 on 1/20 and took home $1661 (793 on the 15th and 868 on the 30th) and put $406 into my 401K. That 1661 will become 1600 as my auto payroll deduction of ALPA dues kicks in this month. DW needs a new car ya know.

2200 at ALG to 1600 at MDA is 600 diff times 12 is 7200 so about 8000/yr like I said.

THUS THE PAY CUT.

The funny thing is that if us downgraded ALG guys would have stayed at ALG we could have reupgraded at PDT as they didn't park/return as many Dash8's as they said because MDA and PSA couldn't get the RJ's in CH13. So right now I could be a line holding PDT Capt at $55/hr. The hits just keep on comming.


Don't get me wrong I know it sounds like I'm complaining but I'm just pointing out the facts.
---------------------------------------------
second
Crzipilot and others,

Yes a CEL guy can/could move from PDT or PSA to Mainline without going to MDA. That is one of the bid preferances. You can bid one of 4 chioses:

1. ALL - first available position at MDA,Mainline
2. Mainline Only, meaning only go to mainline no MDA
3. MDA Capt - will only go to MDA as Capt
4. No Pref - you want to stay at PDT/PSA

Now the chances of any WO guy ever going to Mainline or getting lewft seat at MDA are very very slim almost laughable. If we get the 190's and replace the 737 with it then a flood of mailine guys will be at MDA and it will be 10 plus years before any WO guy moves. Right now I'm buckling down for atleast 2 years on reserve at the bottom of MDA.


Again not complaining just pointing out some issues.

 

[MED]

Do the math.

AA furloughed pilots------------3300
AE pilots ----------------------2500

What do you want to do with those poor AE pilots with 6 to 18 years of seniority?

 

[trainer8]

ya think?

"If we get the 190's and replace the 737 with it then a flood of mailine guys will be at MDA and it will be 10 plus years before any WO guy moves. Right now I'm buckling down for atleast 2 years on reserve at the bottom of MDA."


The only way that will happen is if there are vacancies at MDA. MDA is still overstaffed, thus your 6 hours of actual flying in 1/05. With present attrition at ML, plus retirements, I think 10 years is overstating it. Most junior FO at ML has a 1988 hire date. They are expecting increasing retirements, attrition and possible buy outs. APL guys, if recalled, can move back with substantial pay increases ($20-$30/hr) at their longevity (so I'm told).

The real question is will U get through Spring and Summer and out of C11.

T8

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Let's talk aircraft number.....?

Do the math.

AA furloughed pilots------------3300
AE pilots ----------------------2500

What do you want to do with those poor AE pilots with 6 to 18 years of seniority?

How many planes and seats did AE have before any of the furloughs at AA started?

AE is has been the fastest growing regional in the world over the last few years. The Eagle CEO has even said so in the "Ragship News".

It's not just an AMR thing. The majors park narrow bodies and the regionals get bigger planes and fly them for less.

.....and we all bitch at each other.

The enemy is at the gates, and it's us!

 

[vc10]

On the other hand, moving to MidAtlantic gets you E170 training, which presumably will make you attractive to JetBlue, which will need E190 pilots...

First knowbody wanted to take a paycut and when the MDA opening became available to us CEL guys it didn't look like it would be (unless you went from WO Dash Capt to MDA FO, which about 50 did as they either didn't need the $$, had wives that make $$ or other reasons). The rest of us were already downgraded thus we were at 30/hr on the Dash with no reupgrade insight. Moving over to MDA put our pay at 37/hr but unlike the ALG where a line holder gets 90+ hours per month (and easily gets 100+ with their contract w/o picking up extra flying) at MDA a line holder gets 80-85 max. Thus with the $7/hr raise it was a wash. We figured we would make the same as an MDA FO that we were making as Dash FO.

However this was not to be true for about half of the CEL guys (including myself) that came due to the aircraft deliveries being stopped under ch13.

The way it was going last summer we downgraded Dash guys/senior Dash FO's would hold a hard line by the fall 2004 if the aircraft kept comming at the planned rate as many of the mid-seniority/junior Dash FO's would come to MDA below us as the junior reserve guys. But alas, when the music stopped back in Sept04 us downgraded Dash guys/senior Dash FO's became the junior MDA FO's. Now we are on reserve and getting only 75/hr month.

At Allegheny as a senior FO I took home about $2100-2200 after taxes and 15% into my 401K. Now at MDA I take home about 1650 after taxes and 15% into my 401K.

In Jan 2005 on reserve at MDA I flew two days: 6.6 hours on 1/6 and 7.5 on 1/20 and took home $1661 (793 on the 15th and 868 on the 30th) and put $406 into my 401K. That 1661 will become 1600 as my auto payroll deduction of ALPA dues kicks in this month. DW needs a new car ya know.

2200 at ALG to 1600 at MDA is 600 diff times 12 is 7200 so about 8000/yr like I said.

THUS THE PAY CUT.

The funny thing is that if us downgraded ALG guys would have stayed at ALG we could have reupgraded at PDT as they didn't park/return as many Dash8's as they said because MDA and PSA couldn't get the RJ's in CH13. So right now I could be a line holding PDT Capt at $55/hr. The hits just keep on comming.


Don't get me wrong I know it sounds like I'm complaining but I'm just pointing out the facts.

 

[MED]

How many planes and seats did AE have before any of the furloughs at AA started?

AE is has been the fastest growing regional in the world over the last few years. The Eagle CEO has even said so in the "Ragship News".

It's not just an AMR thing. The majors park narrow bodies and the regionals get bigger planes and fly them for less.

.....and we all bitch at each other.

The enemy is at the gates, and it's us!

261 airplanes for 2500 pilots = 9.5 crews per airplane
AE stopped getting jets this year and the SF340 fleet is going away faster than we expected.
But the point is AE can not take all the furloughed AA pilots.