Flopsions Management....Corupt Third World Mentality

[dime line]

What are you looking for?

Please list the successful union relationships in aviation that have not resulted in the carrier being in bankruptcy or out of business at some point in the history of the carrier. Nearly every carrier could have avoided it had the union worked with the carrier.

Let's go further, Delta was the last legacy carrier to not have a bankruptcy in it's history. Mostly because they balanced what the pilot contract offered with the rest of the non-organized employee groups and they are the least unionized of all with only the pilots and dispatchers. Not a coincidence that they survived as long as they did, but with a "united plus 1" contract that the union refused to renegotiate when the writing was on the wall, it was inevitable that the bankruptcy was going to happen.

Please list the aviation carriers that have not gone through great turmoil due to union intervention. That removes NJ from the list, as they were fighting about a contract in 2001 which ironically helped them survive.

Only SWA has had a long term relationship that has worked, but the old guard is gone and they are already showing signs of union turmoil. The ten year contract that made them the highest paid 737 pilots with profit sharing is either due or coming due soon.

Pinnacle broke new ground by suing the union for dragging their feet after having successful negotiations in the past. IF they are successful, it could change the face of how unions do business.

Unions have choked the hell out of the age 60 rule for nearly 50 years, finally congress saw fit to fix the problem.

Unions have taken good carriers and made an "example" out of them to attempt a new standard.

Look at the silliness of the NHL strike, or the MLB strike from years ago. Were NHL players having a hard time with QOL and pay issues? How many people were hurt and lost their jobs that depended on the games every night? Same goes for MLB and the writer's guild. A union is a union, pure and simple.

There is no balance or concern about the long term health of the company. I can tell you from experience, everybody, including the non-pilot groups were happy that the contract was in place in 1999 at the legacy carrier I was with because it appeared as though we had dodged the labor bullet. 2 years later, all of us were just as frustrated as labor refused to act when the entire industry began to slump.

You can love your union. I won't and will never trust again.

Now, it's up to you to answer my questions about UNIONS for a change. This isn't about me, it's about what organized labor has done to the industry since the beginning of time.

And its management like you, that forces me to vote in unions. Thanks a hole

 

[B19 Flyer]

What about American?

You are right. I missed one.

AA dodged the bullet only after they laid off thousands. Jobs and careers were shredded there because the union dragged it's feet while the writing was on the wall. Only when forced by the impending bankruptcy did the union act, and that happened within hours of the filing.

 

[realityman]

Sigh. Same crap, different day, B19.

I've put up numerous posts citing examples, and reasons, and ancedotes in response to your posts. But you won't respond to any of them.

That pretty much answers any questions anyone should have about your credibility. Logical arguments put forth without venom or namecalling simply don't register with you. So that means you either have no solid basis for your arguments, and therefore CAN'T respond because you would end up looking more foolish than you do now, or you are exactly what others have accused you of being (a management troll or H&F stooge) and WON'T respond because your whole purpose here is to churn the waters, not engage in legitimate debate on any of the issues about unions you've brought forth.

By the way folks, B19 misses one very important point, or at least is entirely misrepresenting it, which is, some labor unrest from time to time is not necessarily a bad thing! B19 poses an interesting question: What would the state of labor or business be like today without unions ever having come on the scene? Anybody care to take a guess what pay and benefits and the standard of living in this country would be like without the unions? Hint: Take a look at the working conditions in most third world countries. Heck, it wasn't all that long ago that you could've expected your 10-year-old to be working in a factory somewhere making $.05/day right here in the good ol US of A.

Just because you have a union, doesn't necessarily make it bad for the company either. Sure, we had a knock down, drag-em-out fight at NJ. B19 wants you to think it was a bad thing because it caused some headaches for management. And what did we get? The pilots got a good contract and much better QOL, and the company got happy pilots who all started pulling together again for a successful Netjets and then record profits.

Unions aren't for everyone, and they aren't a magic cure for all of labor's and business's problems. But I can tell you that every non-union place I've been employed at as a laborer (not management) has ultimately yielded lower pay and a worse QOL. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Galaxy]

OK dude I'll bite, what does that secrete squirrel stuff get you?

Call the number and order the forms the F & H filed with the DOL. Then you will see what you are really worth to FLOPS mgt.

 

[B19 Flyer]

And its management like you, that forces me to vote in unions. Thanks a hole

Operations managers like what I did back in those days have no part in anything that would cause a pilot to vote in a union.

Furthermore, my union stance was built around many factors, not just the career changes I was forced into making.

They also revolved around the grievance process, the ridiculous work rules and restrictions to scope agreements that limited the growth of the carrier. The union stuck it's nose repeatedly into processes that increased operational cost without reason and the CBA created restrictions to pilots that wanted to fly and couldn't even though they were otherwise legal, safe and willing to get the job done.

Many, many pilots will thumb their nose at unions once they see the monster from the inside once they have the courage to step inside and manage.

Union leadership is there to line their own pockets with the dues of their membership, and they will do it at the cost of jobs, careers and even the employer if need be.

You might not like my opinion of unions, and that's fine by me. But, at the same time, I'm very good at what I do and there isn't a pilot that doesn't respect what I bring to the table. I understand this sh*t a lot better than any on this board realizes, and it's a shame to me that the fractional model is going to be over-run by unions and has the potential to be crippled before it ever gets off the ground. The concept is too new for unions to be jumping in like they know it all. The primary difference that makes the frac model different from the airline model is that fracs make more money by not using airplanes and scheduled airlines make more by flying them and filling seats.

Unions will force pay even though airplanes are parked, forcing the cost model higher while a scheduled carrier will do it's best to utilize pilots to increase revenue.

It's too soon to see if the NJ CBA is going to make or break the industry, but the history of "industry leading contracts" is bleak in aviation. Market forces always find a way of bringing them back to reality, and everybody pays when that happens.

 

[B19 Flyer]

By the way folks, B19 misses one very important point, or at least is entirely misrepresenting it, which is, some labor unrest from time to time is not necessarily a bad thing! B19 poses an interesting question: What would the state of labor or business be like today without unions ever having come on the scene? Anybody care to take a guess what pay and benefits and the standard of living in this country would be like without the unions? Hint: Take a look at the working conditions in most third world countries. Heck, it wasn't all that long ago that you could've expected your 10-year-old to be working in a factory somewhere making $.05/day right here in the good ol US of A.

I've repeatedly stated that unions had their day. But pilots are not steel workers, factory workers and aren't forced to work in conditions that are not highly regulated by a governing body.

It's not 1933 anymore... the unions had their place in history. Unions were once there to protect.

Now they are there not to produce a livable working wage, it's become an industry within itself and is there to strangle every single penny possible from hard working people. In effect, what a union was once there to protect has run full circle. Now, they will cost jobs and reduce pay, to the point of forcing the carrier out of business.

That wasn't the original intent of organizing.

 

[realityman]

No, you have not 'repeatedly said that unions had there day'. You've repeatedly said (ad nauseum) that unions are bad.

And you keep glossing over a very important point when you talk about unions putting good carriers out of business: they don't. If it was a good carrier, some labor unrest wouldn't bury it.

The ones that ultimately went under were ALREADY in trouble BEFORE those pesky unions got so stubborn about their contracts.

You keep saying that the unions were too slow or refused to renegotiate their contracts when their companies needed them to, and that's why they go under. Hogwash! It's up to management to lead by example. I notice you keep glossing over the fact that upper management almost always seems to walk away from floundering carriers with ridiculous bonuses and salaries. I'm wondering why you think it's alright for management to insist that their contracts be honored no matter what the cost, but you seem to think the union should rollover and take whatever concessions are offered to them.

One more time: Companies don't go out of business just because of stubborn unions. Companies go out of business because of slow economy/poor business model/lousy or corrupt management/higher raw materials costs (fuel, etc..)/restrictive gov't regs/outdated products/maybe stubborn unions, and a whole host of other factors. But it is NEVER solely because of a union. All the legacy carriers you mention had a bunch of major problems long before they ever had to address the 'problem' of the union.

And you still haven't addressed the thousands of companies over time (some of them very large) that have gone out of business that were non-union. What was their excuse?

Just as a fun exercise, I'd love to hear your take on how unions ruined Enron.

Anyway, I agree that unions haven't ALWAYS done the right thing. Plenty of corruption and ineffectiveness to be seen there. But the same could be said for management, government, religion, our schools, military, etc.....
The real question is, when you look at the big picture as a whole and where our society is now and how we got here, are we better off without the unions or with them? From your personal experience you say without. From my personal, and very recent, experience I say with.

 

[Galaxy]

I've repeatedly stated that unions had their day. But pilots are not steel workers, factory workers and aren't forced to work in conditions that are not highly regulated by a governing body.

It's not 1933 anymore... the unions had their place in history. Unions were once there to protect.

Now they are there not to produce a livable working wage, it's become an industry within itself and is there to strangle every single penny possible from hard working people. In effect, what a union was once there to protect has run full circle. Now, they will cost jobs and reduce pay, to the point of forcing the carrier out of business.

That wasn't the original intent of organizing.

Wow, just how much money have you made from this union busting attempt?

Like always you print HALF TRUTHS. Let me help you and finish it out for you. Unions were started because of GREED and UNSAFE conditions. Greed from Employers were finding the cheapest labor rates no matter of age or sex. They often had these poor peolpe working if hazardous and dangerous conditions. Then the unions came and they had their day. They protected the LITTLE GUY from MGT who had one thing on their mind--the BOTTOM line! I do agree with you and say that over time Union Bosses fell into corruption. MGT started this and has proven that anytime there is large sums of money present and people with no morals there will be corruption. Not true with the IBT 1108. Well the day of the blackjack lugging, baseball bat swinging, brick throwing unions are long gone. Now it is all done with briefcases. Since you only post in the Fractional forum lets keep to discussing the Fractional Union-not UAL or American or the Meat Packers Union. IBT1108- This union has a transparant accounting system with minimal people on the payroll. Almost all of the leadership is voluntary. Something you would never do-volunteer your time for a cause you believe in-as I am sure your daily rate for trying to bust this process is a lot higher than the highest paid pilot here. All the lies and crap you spew have nothing to do with the real subject here. IBT 1108 and FLOPS and a CONTRACT.
Fact is we are coming for it..RAGE is here..YOU LOSE
PAY UP or GET OUT
FIRE SALE OR CONTRACT.

 

[bchjetdrvr]

What are you looking for?

Please list the successful union relationships in aviation that have not resulted in the carrier being in bankruptcy or out of business at some point in the history of the carrier.

Ummmmm.....................NETJETS? :beer:

What did I win...what I win...what I win...come one...tell me what I'd won, clown? :laugh:

Oh yeah NetJets is not a "carrier" (121). Fudge! Guess I got it wrong.

So if you do nothing but talk about and make reference to air carriers (121) and their unions....
THEN WHAT THE FORNICATION ARE YOU DOING IN THE FRAC SECTION AHOLE!?

 

[fischman]

I've repeatedly stated that unions had their day. But pilots are not steel workers, factory workers and aren't forced to work in conditions that are not highly regulated by a governing body.

It's not 1933 anymore... the unions had their place in history. Unions were once there to protect. You just don't get it do you? That is the prime directive of Unions.

Now they are there not to produce a livable working wage, it's become an industry within itself and is there to strangle every single penny possible from hard working people. You just don't get it do you? 1 hour of OT (which I get due to the collective bargaining from the union) pays my dues every month. It is money well spent. In effect, what a union was once there to protect has run full circle. Now, they will cost jobs and reduce pay You just don't get it do you? When I started NJA in '05, my pay was $27,800. My BASE pay in '08 will be $118,000, to the point of forcing the carrier out of business. You just don't get it do you? What happened at NJA between '05 and '07 (besides the excellent skills of yours truly)? The pilot's got a massive pay raise, and we STILL managed to make money!!!

That wasn't the original intent of organizing. You just don't get it do you? Grow up man. Get with the times.

$50 says B19 can't come up with an original argument on these comments. Any takers?