FLOPS Pilots vs FLOPS Pilots. Is this still going on?

[Freedom]

Good catch 993....

One of the things you can always count on with Pathological Liars such as Bob19, is that they will eventually get caught in their own lies.

I think (as was said in another thread), Bob has met his quota of Lies for the day.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[GerryG]

It would be curious to see what would happen if the union vote happened today. Would the mix still have a full third of the pilots against the union or would it be higher?

Kind of like the presidential election... the media is loving our new president-elect while forgetting that there are 56 million who wanted no part of him.

The union will bang their drum touting how they had the "majority" vote, and never admit or even make the statement that a full one third of their own population did not want the union, as well as all of the non-pilot personnel because they also knew the turmoil a union would bring. The FLOPS employees that voted "yes" for the union were actually the minority of the entire population of the company.

You know B19, I must finally admit that you've been right all along. After this furlough my opinion of the union and our quest for a contract has dramatically changed.

I'm now ready to go back to bowing and scraping for scraps off managements table. I will get on my hands and knees and pray five times daily – facing in the direction of CGF of course – that our managers will benevolently take care of me and my family, absent any self serving impulse. I know they are really busy, but I’m sure they have my fellow pilots best interests in mind.

And now that a just cause provision is nearly at hand I’m ready to forgo that and place my balls (figuratively of course) back into managements hands. I no longer feel that, as a professional, I deserve a contractual relationship with my employer. Only doctors, lawyers, home buyers, auto buyers, farmers who sell commodities, teachers, professional athletes, persons who purchase AKC canines, clergy members who lend their services to large denominations, and members of management deserve contracts. As for me I will simply trust in management’s generosity.

Also I’m sure you’re right, more than 33% of our pilots now agree with you and me. Look out union, the pilots want their parent, child relationship with management back.

 

[brokeflyer]

lo....i just threw up in mouth a little bit.

 

[convair580]

I have not posted much on this web-site! With that in mind I have to say that placing blame on the pilots or current management for recent furloughs is not the answer! The sole blame for this demise sits in the lap of Mike Schitfinger and his cronies(sanjay "may i get you a slurpy" Aggarwal). We need to keep focused on that fact that Mat Slinghoff is doing an incredible job as well as management negotioning team. This contract will get done soon and Flight options will prevail as a premier fractional in the industry. Along with Netjets! What we need to do is focus on doing our job as safely and professionally as possible.

In lite of the recent lay-offs, things have gotten better for us pilots. Management has gone out of their way to take care of us. I personally feel bad that I still have a job and the co-pilots that I have flown with in the last eight years do not. However this is the fault of schitfinger and may he rot in hell for his selfish attitude towards our clients and pilots. He has now screwed up two companies in aviation. Let's hope that there is not a third.

For people like B19 to blame the union for our demise is insane. He has not helped the situation. Not to mention the Net Jets pilots union that after begging us to join their cause abandon us when we needed them most! The unity in our union is stronger than ever and when the economic crisis turns upward we will still be there. Hopefully with the 104 pilots that has just been laid off!

In closing we all need to do are parts to make this company work and also support the union. Ask Mat Slinghoff and he would agree. But this anti-union and anti-Flight Options crap has got to stop. Our competitors would love see us fade into the dark. That is the true reason why Net Jets union hung us out to dry and made there own union. The more we work together the stronger we will be. We will fight on till we close the doors. I think a year from now we will be setting a new standard in the industry union and management alike.

I appoligize for all the grammitcal mistakes and spelling in advance.

 

[fischman]

Not bad for your first post.

See how he tries to get the FLOPS pilots to befriend him by saying how evil management is, then spreads hate towards NJASAP? See how he tries to spread separation? That is pretty clever.

The FLOPS pilots know that the NetJets pilots only left 1108 because we didn't need the teamsters anymore. We gave the FLOPS pilots everything they needed to succeed. What they did with those resources is up to 1108.

Now take a look at your strongest supporters on these boards. NJW, CA1900, Freedom, Dime Line, 993_Pilot, Semore Butts, Fischman, etc... How many of us are NJA people?

 

[Semore Butts]

I am

Hawker 800XP.

I left a non-union fractional to go to Netjets specifically because it had a union.

It has worked out very well for me.

 

[G4dude]

I left a non union fractional for another non union fractional which is now being absorbed by an in- house union subsidiary. Go figure!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Hawker 800XP.

I left a non-union fractional to go to Netjets specifically because it had a union.

It has worked out very well for me.

That is exactly what I have been advocating. If you are not happy with being in a non-union company, go and find a union job that fits you.


There are 33% of those pilots at FLOPS (plus the rest of the company) that didn't want the union.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I have not posted much on this web-site! With that in mind I have to say that placing blame on the pilots or current management for recent furloughs is not the answer! The sole blame for this demise sits in the lap of Mike Schitfinger and his cronies(sanjay "may i get you a slurpy" Aggarwal). We need to keep focused on that fact that Mat Slinghoff is doing an incredible job as well as management negotioning team. This contract will get done soon and Flight options will prevail as a premier fractional in the industry. Along with Netjets! What we need to do is focus on doing our job as safely and professionally as possible.

In lite of the recent lay-offs, things have gotten better for us pilots. Management has gone out of their way to take care of us. I personally feel bad that I still have a job and the co-pilots that I have flown with in the last eight years do not. However this is the fault of schitfinger and may he rot in hell for his selfish attitude towards our clients and pilots. He has now screwed up two companies in aviation. Let's hope that there is not a third.

For people like B19 to blame the union for our demise is insane. He has not helped the situation. Not to mention the Net Jets pilots union that after begging us to join their cause abandon us when we needed them most! The unity in our union is stronger than ever and when the economic crisis turns upward we will still be there. Hopefully with the 104 pilots that has just been laid off!

In closing we all need to do are parts to make this company work and also support the union. Ask Mat Slinghoff and he would agree. But this anti-union and anti-Flight Options crap has got to stop. Our competitors would love see us fade into the dark. That is the true reason why Net Jets union hung us out to dry and made there own union. The more we work together the stronger we will be. We will fight on till we close the doors. I think a year from now we will be setting a new standard in the industry union and management alike.

I appoligize for all the grammitcal mistakes and spelling in advance.

The demise isn't BECAUSE of the union, but the union will prevent future success by removing the ability for the company to adjust to the changing business climate.

It remains to be seen how the "industry leading contract" will fare through these rough times.

If two years from now we are looking at non-union fracs as being stable finanicially as well as a peaceful work environment compared to prolonged and bitter contract negotiations at NJ for concessions to their "industry leading contract" and FLOPS for the contract that never happened, then we'll know just how successful the union infiltration was.

I still predict that the "industry leading contract" will be in complete turmoil by this time next year.

 

[Flex-ible]

To some extent

There is no way
Flying airplanes safely is the pilot's job. Signing and retaining customers is management's job.

My PRIMARY job is to fly airplanes safely.

I think it is foolhardy to neglect the SECONDARY responsibility EVERY company employee has to help retain owners/customers. If I can make a passenger's experience the most outstanding one they have ever had, I have worked to preserve them as a customer - and preserve my job. Will I take a broken airplane because they really want to go? No. Will I dip under minimums looking for an airport because they don't want to divert? No. Will I run out to get the Grey Poupon the catereer forgot? Absolutely.

Ultimately, management will pay me better and give me better benefits because the company makes more money.

 

[Freedom]

Last time I checked Bob19....

That is exactly what I have been advocating. If you are not happy with being in a non-union company, go and find a union job that fits you.


There are 33% of those pilots at FLOPS (plus the rest of the company) that didn't want the union.

Flight Options Pilots were legally Represented by the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.

That makes Flight Options a Union Company.

With that fact in mind, if you don't like working for a Union Company, perhaps you should take your own advice Bob19 and leave? I mean, that is what you are advocating

As for your illogical logic, no company has ever had a 100% vote in favor of a Union. In fact, most votes are very tight in the 52-48% range. The fact that 67% of the Flight Options Pilots voted for representation is considered a landslide in management/labor circles; but you know that already.

The only question now at Flight Options is whether or not Management will sign the dotted line on a Fair Contract. Management at NetJets wouldn't sign their bottom line, until it became more cost effective for them to do so than not. And I wonder what employee group influenced that dynamic? I agree with you in one respect: To expect an Industry Leading Contract vs an Industry Standard Contract under the present economic conditions would be unreasonable.

I think you will find the Flight Options Pilots perfectly willing to simply accept a Contract on par with our primary competition: NetJets.

Now, go ahead and tell me how unreasonable I am being.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[Freedom]

You still don't get it Bob19....

The demise isn't BECAUSE of the union, but the union will prevent future success by removing the ability for the company to adjust to the changing business climate.

It remains to be seen how the "industry leading contract" will fare through these rough times.

If two years from now we are looking at non-union fracs as being stable finanicially as well as a peaceful work environment compared to prolonged and bitter contract negotiations at NJ for concessions to their "industry leading contract" and FLOPS for the contract that never happened, then we'll know just how successful the union infiltration was.

I still predict that the "industry leading contract" will be in complete turmoil by this time next year.

Unions don't "infiltrate" Companies, they are the result of Management Failures to keep the workers satisfied with their treatment by Management.

As an Original Flight Options Pilot (pre-merger), there was no way we would have ever considered a Union at that time. We were treated well in our eyes.

Then Uncle Kenn lost control of the Company and we were exposed to just how evil and predatory a Management Team could be. Many of the parts of that Team still exist at Flight Options including the Vice President of Flight Operations (you might know him Bob19), and the Program Managers for both the Large/Mid Cabin and Small Cabin Programs.

Perhaps if Uncle Kenn Ricci were to Fire all 3 of these gentlemen, maybe this Pilot Group might take a second look at whether or not we need a Union. But with these gentlemen still in place, along with several other evil PSMs, not to mention Options puppet of a Chief Pilot, you can forget about the thought of the Union going away.

Even if these dirt bags were removed, the Flight Options Pilots know there would be nothing to stop Uncle Kenn from bringing them back. We have already seen what it is like to work unprotected under these Predators, and I don't know of many Fight Options Pilots that wish to spend the rest of their careers exposed to these Predators, without the protections of a Contract.

So you want the Union to go away Uncle Kenn? Truthfully, it ain't gonna happen. This Pilot group has just been burned too deeply.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[gunfyter]

I hope for 19's sake Unions survive... otherwise he will be out of a job.

 

[CA1900]

I hope for 19's sake Unions survive... otherwise he will be out of a job.

He'd still spin that to be the fault of unions.

 

[dime line]

That makes Flight Options a Union Company

Not quite Freedom, only the pilots at Options are unionized, Bob19 and his kumbya clan can still say THEY still work at a non union job.

 

[993_Pilot]

That is exactly what I have been advocating. If you are not happy with being in a non-union company, go and find a union job that fits you.


There are 33% of those pilots at FLOPS (plus the rest of the company) that didn't want the union.

You're an idiot. I defy you to name one single company that had 100% support for the union. Go ahead..... I'm Waiting.......

Maybe we should do our presidential election over again too, because 100% of the people didn't support Obama. No matter where anyone went, there would not be 100% support for the union. Why should the majority of the pilots leave instead of trying to make their life/employment better?

It is the minority who should leave if they are not happy!

If they did that, we could have avoided the layoffs!

 

[B19 Flyer]

You're an idiot. I defy you to name one single company that had 100% support for the union. Go ahead..... I'm Waiting.......

Maybe we should do our presidential election over again too, because 100% of the people didn't support Obama. No matter where anyone went, there would not be 100% support for the union. Why should the majority of the pilots leave instead of trying to make their life/employment better?

It is the minority who should leave if they are not happy!

If they did that, we could have avoided the layoffs!

The union mongers are attempting to make their own lives better at the expense of others that are usually relatively happy. It's a small group when compared to the overall population of the company.

But, you knew that already and didn't care because you are just, flat selfish.

There shouldn't be a single complaint on this board as to how the union is being treated as it comes on the property. The union leadership should have told you that it was going to be miserable to put one on, there would be lots of turmoil, there would be years of bad blood and the only group in the entire company that had anything to gain in the end was the pilot group, and that would be at the expense of everybody else from the stockholders to the owners to all the rest of the employees.

Yep, all of you should just stop whining and wait for it to be over because you should have known it before you ever voted.

Those that voted it in are the minority in respect to the entire "population of those that care", and are the invaders. Unions like to plant themselves like a cancer even into companies that clearly don't want them.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Unions don't "infiltrate" Companies, they are the result of Management Failures to keep the workers satisfied with their treatment by Management.

Not true. 1108 has made it a mission to unionize the entire fractional industry even though it has been made clear that many of the fracs want no part of them or any other union.



As an Original Flight Options Pilot (pre-merger), there was no way we would have ever considered a Union at that time. We were treated well in our eyes.

Then Uncle Kenn lost control of the Company and we were exposed to just how evil and predatory a Management Team could be. Many of the parts of that Team still exist at Flight Options including the Vice President of Flight Operations (you might know him Bob19), and the Program Managers for both the Large/Mid Cabin and Small Cabin Programs.

Perhaps if Uncle Kenn Ricci were to Fire all 3 of these gentlemen, maybe this Pilot Group might take a second look at whether or not we need a Union. But with these gentlemen still in place, along with several other evil PSMs, not to mention Options puppet of a Chief Pilot, you can forget about the thought of the Union going away.

Even if these dirt bags were removed, the Flight Options Pilots know there would be nothing to stop Uncle Kenn from bringing them back. We have already seen what it is like to work unprotected under these Predators, and I don't know of many Fight Options Pilots that wish to spend the rest of their careers exposed to these Predators, without the protections of a Contract.

So you want the Union to go away Uncle Kenn? Truthfully, it ain't gonna happen. This Pilot group has just been burned too deeply.

But nowhere near as deeply as the clients that are flown everyday are going to be.


Freedom is Not Free

........................

 

[imacdog]

So you want the Union to go away Uncle Kenn? Truthfully, it ain't gonna happen. This Pilot group has just been burned too deeply.

But nowhere near as deeply as the clients that are flown everyday are going to be.

Yeah you should see how mad the NJA clients are when they fly with us! Guys, B knows exactly how horrible it is to be flown by happy, motivated pilots. It's rough I tell ya!

 

[brokeflyer]

the problem is management continues to destroy companies.....so if they unionize, management can't suck a company dry as easy. That is why they dont want unions. Management only wants to pay the bare mionimum required to get the work done, otherwise it cuts into their skim.

So, management is the reason this is happening. Piss poor management is the reason the economy is in the crapper. Unions would not have to put pressure on managemtn to do their jobs if they did in the first place.

 

[Freedom]

Twisting facts again Bob19?

In reality (the world the rest of us live in) the Pilot group at Flight Options is the single largest employee group in the company.

67% of that employee group voted for representation via the IBT 1108 by secret ballot. Nobody twisted our arms.

And now you refer to 2/3rds of your Pilot group (most likely more than 2/3rds after the terror campaign management has embarked upon), the very people entrusted with the lives of those very customers you pretend to care so much about, as Union Mongers.

I'd think you'd have a little more respectful terminology for the Professionals who's hands you place the lives of your customers in.

Funny; when I flew Scheeringa he couldn't have been any nicer to the Flightcrew. Its amazing how one's attitude changes when one's life is in our hands.

This is not an airline Bob19. The Pilots make up a huge percentage of the company's workforce, the vast majority in fact.

Stop living in the past Bob19; your days at Eastern are over. The only difference between you and some of the other Eastern scabs that I now call friend, is that you still believe you were justified in crossing the line. They've admitted their mistake and moved on. Perhaps it is time for you to do so as well.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[993_Pilot]

The union mongers are attempting to make their own lives better at the expense of others that are usually relatively happy. It's a small group when compared to the overall population of the company. . . Those that voted it in are the minority in respect to the entire "population of those that care", and are the invaders. Unions like to plant themselves like a cancer even into companies that clearly don't want them.

Well, you're right about one thing... we are trying to make our lives better. However, we aren't a small group. In fact, the pilots are by far the largest group in the company. 67% of the pilot group is probably close to a majority of the entire company labor force! I still defy you to name one single company that had 100% support for the union. Go ahead..... I'm still waiting.......

Will our contract affect the other groups?... Yes, the FA's will probably benefit by the new work rules established in a CBA. It will probably also make it harder for scheduling to abuse the flight crews, so their job will be a little harder... but then that's one of the goals! Maint. won't really be affected, but it will affect management a little. They will have to think ahead a bit more, and they'll have rules that they have to live within instead of changing them any time it suits them. The owners might have to pay a bit more, so management will have to find a different way to be the "value leader" instead of subsidizing the owners flying with the pilots pay. Boo Hoo! I doubt we'll end up making more than all the other fractionals, or having vastly different work rules, so it shouldn't be too tough for them.

Now that we have that taken care of, when are you going to address post #30?

Actually, I never expected that you would... prove me wrong.

 

[waka]

Flight Options Pilots were legally Represented by the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.

That makes Flight Options a Union Company.

With that fact in mind, if you don't like working for a Union Company, perhaps you should take your own advice Bob19 and leave? I mean, that is what you are advocating

As for your illogical logic, no company has ever had a 100% vote in favor of a Union. In fact, most votes are very tight in the 52-48% range. The fact that 67% of the Flight Options Pilots voted for representation is considered a landslide in management/labor circles; but you know that already.

The only question now at Flight Options is whether or not Management will sign the dotted line on a Fair Contract. Management at NetJets wouldn't sign their bottom line, until it became more cost effective for them to do so than not. And I wonder what employee group influenced that dynamic? I agree with you in one respect: To expect an Industry Leading Contract vs an Industry Standard Contract under the present economic conditions would be unreasonable.

I think you will find the Flight Options Pilots perfectly willing to simply accept a Contract on par with our primary competition: NetJets.

Now, go ahead and tell me how unreasonable I am being.

Freedom is Not Free

Any attempts to confront B19 with logic is futile. He will not address your response point by point.

I know I am just as guilty but, just think how many hours of our lives has been wasted on B19's posts. You will not get that time back.

B19, Wannabe union buster, his friends commit suicide, spineless, loser as a pilot, loser in life and all around Idiot Extraordinaire.

 

[Freedom]

Understood Waka....

I guess this latest balloon (Flight Options Pilot vs Flight Options Pilot) Bob19 and his cronies tried to float out there in yet another attempt to Divide and Conquer fell flat on its face, again.

Nice try though Gentlemen.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[B19 Flyer]

I guess this latest balloon (Flight Options Pilot vs Flight Options Pilot) Bob19 and his cronies tried to float out there in yet another attempt to Divide and Conquer fell flat on its face, again.

Nice try though Gentlemen.


Freedom is Not Free

Divide and conquer? That's what 1108 tried to do three years ago and none of the FLOPS pilots are satisfied with the progress made.

1108 failed and you can't admit it.

 

[fischman]

1108 hasn't been given a chance to get a TA by management yet. Perhaps after management tries to negotiate in GOOD FAITH we can make the judgment?

 

[Semore Butts]

Cunfused me again Bob 19 (your new designated handle)

Bob said;

Divide and conquer? That's what 1108 tried to do three years ago and none of the FLOPS pilots are satisfied with the progress made.

How could you even pretend to know such information if you aren't at Options?

I was employed at a fractional prior to Netjets, But I couldn't give you a clue to whats going on there now?

But you've never been employed at Options yet you know what all the pilots are thinking?

 

[skyismyoffice]

none of the FLOPS pilots are satisfied with the progress made.

Wrong again Bob. I think the 1108 has made HUGE progress and I am in the Majority!

 

[Freedom]

Now you are keying into Bob19's Game...

Wrong again Bob. I think the 1108 has made HUGE progress and I am in the Majority!

He is well aware the Majority of the Flight Options Pilots are in firm support of their Union and its Leadership.

What he hopes to do, is convince some of those in support, to become dissatisfied with the amount of time it takes to negotiate a first contract, in an attempt to fracture support for the Union.

He knows most Pilots are too lazy to do the research (let's face it, research is a lawyer thing, not a Pilot thing), and discover that it is a known fact, that when a newly elected union sets foot on a property, the AVERAGE time to a first contract is 4 years. That is a fact. Don't believe me? Call your local Labor Attorney and ask him. And that is the time including contracts settled under the non transportation unions. Those of us in the transportation sector fall under a special area of the law, the Railway Labor Act, the primary goal of which is to maintain public transportation uninterupted. Although we fly private, since we operate under Part 135 and therefore can fly the Public, we fall under this more restrictive law.

It sucks. It is a long drawn out process, tilted to a great extent in favor of the employer providing the public transportation. The only real leverage the employee group has is to act as a Solidifed Unit during negotiations, following the directives of your leadership in great numbers. There is strength in numbers, Bob19 knows this, which is why he is constantly attempting to cause division among the Pilot group. He knows, divided we will fall.

But what he won't admit, is that our Pilots are learning how the Game is played, and although he continues his attempts, he is not fooling anyone other than himself.

So continue with your banter Bob19. We know who and what you are, and you're not fooling anyone but yourself.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[brokeflyer]

Management caused this fiasco because they failed to pay their pilots.....the result? A union.

Justice served.

If management would stop doing the PROVEN practice of lining their pockets, then these things wouldn't happen.


And THAT is undisputed.