FLOPS Pilots vs FLOPS Pilots. Is this still going on?

[993_Pilot]

You are so full of $hit !!!

Well.. you don't spend much time in large corporate headquarters do you? Pretty much everything is done under the watchful eye of a camera in the sake of security, not safety. The idea of having a camera on the flight deck is to improve safety. So the answer is yes, I do welcome the cameras because there is a positive meaning behind it and I know that it improves safety and security in the building.

There are plenty of cameras for security in FBO's and on the ramps too. Pilot's don't object to this, but it isn't the same thing as having your every word and action recorded, to be later scrutinized and second guessed by Monday morning quarterbacks. Come talk to me when you're willing to give us that kind of oversight in to your job. I'll pay for the equipment and install myself!

It's not going to happen again, the new union MEC has already sent a clear message they want a more standard contract. Those days are as good as over.

Maybe true at SWA, but that doesn't mean that it can't or won't happen elsewhere. Like I said before, be creative, be constructive, be a leader! Herb Kelleher was a true leader whose employees loved him. You B19, are mearly a manager, and I think you probably already know what your employees think of you.

Unions don't want to take that risk, you know that as well as i do. That's why there are so few contracts with that carrot built in. They don't want to take a pay cut when there is no profit, they want every last golden egg that goose can produce.

IIRC, both United and Continental's unions have given up salary for a stake in the company in the past. There have probably been others too. Maybe when Flops & the 1108 start on salary & compensation, it would be worth discussing. Of course it is a much easier pill to swallow when management is risking as much or more than those they are asking to do this. Are you working without a contract? Are you salaried, or does your compensation depend on the profitability of the company? I know you won't answer these here, but answer them to yourself, then think about it for a while.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19,

Are you going to tell me you have a camera watching you in YOUR office. Recording the phone calls. Recording the meetings. Recording what you do on the computer? Yet another lie from you.


BULL!!!

Well, you are right. I don't have a camera watching every move I make, that's true. From fracs to legacy carriers many parts of any air carrier are recorded though fischman for regulatory reasons as well as training reasons.

The cameras in the workplace are there to bolster security to help people be safe. Should something occur, they will indeed help to sort out what happened to build additional safety into the building.

The NTSB has made the recommendation for the exact same reason. To keep people from dying and getting injured by helping to detirmine what happens in the event of an accident.

Apparently you feel that the NTSB does not have a valid point in their recommendation of using modern technology to the greatest extent possible. To use your own words, what are you scared of?

 

[B19 Flyer]

There are plenty of cameras for security in FBO's and on the ramps too. Pilot's don't object to this, but it isn't the same thing as having your every word and action recorded, to be later scrutinized and second guessed by Monday morning quarterbacks.

Every word you say is already recorded. The camera recommendation is there to see what is happening for those items that have no ability to otherwise be recorded. There are many things a camera will pick up that will give the final piece of the puzzle to keep others safe.

Come talk to me when you're willing to give us that kind of oversight in to your job. I'll pay for the equipment and install myself!

Once again, while every word and keystroke isn't recorded... I think you underestimate the oversight of management in any company and the microscope they are in.

Maybe true at SWA, but that doesn't mean that it can't or won't happen elsewhere. Like I said before, be creative, be constructive, be a leader! Herb Kelleher was a true leader whose employees loved him. You B19, are mearly a manager, (really?) and I think you probably already know what your employees think of you.

ROFL... if you've read my posts, you'll know that I no longer am in a position where I have employees reporting to me.

IIRC, both United and Continental's unions have given up salary for a stake in the company in the past.

It was a United Union leader that famously stated: "We don't want to kill the golden goose. We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg."

http://www.airlinesafety.com/Unions/DeadGoose.htm

You also forget that it was Frank Lorenzo that saved Continental from certain demise.


There have probably been others too. Maybe when Flops & the 1108 start on salary & compensation, it would be worth discussing. Of course it is a much easier pill to swallow when management

You keep using the word management... you DO realize that the risk is spread out over the entire organization, non-represented employees, owners, stockholders and investors, right?

is risking as much or more than those they are asking to do this.

Are you working without a contract?

Yes.

Are you salaried, or does your compensation depend on the profitability of the company?

I am salaried with a nice profit sharing program. (not a bonus). The carrier is NON-union and to reiterate earlier statements, it not only has the best pay and benefits, but also is the most secure I've ever felt with in over two decades of being in aviation. No union turmoil with any group because unions don't exist. I can't think of any group within the organization that would disagree with me on that.

I know you won't answer these here, but answer them to yourself, then think about it for a while.

....................

 

[imacdog]

Wow, just to think B actually does this for a living. What a sad existance.

 

[Mike Jenvey]

Thread drift - a few ideas on the the use of cockpit image recorders (cameras!)....... come to the UK, we have the highest number of CCTV cameras anywhere!!

According to the latest studies, Britain has a staggering 4.2million CCTV cameras - one for every 14 people in the country - and 20 per cent of cameras globally. It has been calculated that each person is caught on camera an average of 300 times daily.

It's on the NTSB "to do" list - for FAA action & there was a comprehensive study by the UK CAA a couple of years ago. Also, it is on the "pending" ICAO list of safety matters. In short, it's gonna happen - & as long as the appropriate privacy safeguards are made, then that's fine with me.

There was a Trident accident near Heathrow in 1972, 188 killed; prior to that the situation with regards to cockpit voice recorder was voluntary. It became mandatory after the inquiry into the crash, as there had been no way to record who said what/did what - other than knowing that someone raised the slats too early. if you want to read the report (with some quaint proper English!), it's here - I won't link it directly, it's a large download.

Look at Flt Data Recording (FDR) - lots of "big brother will be watching me" complaints prior to its introduction, but it makes the aviation world a much safer place.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Wow, just to think B actually does this for a living. What a sad existance.

For entertainment only!

 

[fischman]

Well, you are right. I don't have a camera watching every move I make, that's true.

...So you are starting to understand huh?

 

[Semore Butts]

Again, you have problems in my opinion

B-19 says this why he comes to Flightinfo?

For entertainment only!

What kind of person comes to a website just to stir up trouble among people that are struggling to make a decent living, and people who are losing their livelyhoods?

That is how you entertain yourself?

There must be some websites that have doctors that may be able to help you with your obvious problem.

Why don't you just leave us alone?

 

[993_Pilot]

It was a United Union leader that famously stated: "We don't want to kill the golden goose. We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg."

So, one bad statement by a union leader makes all unions bad? By this logic, I guess we should throw all management in jail because a few have committed crimes while they bilked their company.

You keep using the word management... you DO realize that the risk is spread out over the entire organization, non-represented employees, owners, stockholders and investors, right?

Yes, I do, but management is typically the only ones with golden parachutes. Why is that?

Are you working without a contract?

Yes. . . I am salaried with a nice profit sharing program. (not a bonus). The carrier is NON-union and to reiterate earlier statements, it not only has the best pay and benefits, but also is the most secure I've ever felt with in over two decades of being in aviation. No union turmoil with any group because unions don't exist. I can't think of any group within the organization that would disagree with me on that.

Let me guess, a foreign carrier, either subsidized or given market protections by their government?

If (Big "IF") you aren't in management, you don't even have a dog in this hunt. So why do you spend so much time here? If you're not BT, then I think you're either another Flops Manager, or a FUD master from F&H.

 

[993_Pilot]

You're a LIAR !

ROFL... if you've read my posts, you'll know that I no longer am in a position where I have employees reporting to me.

Really? Well it just so happens that I have read your posts. Let me quote one for you . . .

(LINK) on the 16th of this month you said:

...But what do I know.. I only sign the checks.

So, I ask you, are still in management and lying now, or just don't have the courage (LINK) to be a manager any more? . . . in which case you're a liar for having said that you sign the checks on the 16th. Either way, we have now established that you're a LIAR !

 

[Freedom]

Good catch 993....

One of the things you can always count on with Pathological Liars such as Bob19, is that they will eventually get caught in their own lies.

I think (as was said in another thread), Bob has met his quota of Lies for the day.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[GerryG]

It would be curious to see what would happen if the union vote happened today. Would the mix still have a full third of the pilots against the union or would it be higher?

Kind of like the presidential election... the media is loving our new president-elect while forgetting that there are 56 million who wanted no part of him.

The union will bang their drum touting how they had the "majority" vote, and never admit or even make the statement that a full one third of their own population did not want the union, as well as all of the non-pilot personnel because they also knew the turmoil a union would bring. The FLOPS employees that voted "yes" for the union were actually the minority of the entire population of the company.

You know B19, I must finally admit that you've been right all along. After this furlough my opinion of the union and our quest for a contract has dramatically changed.

I'm now ready to go back to bowing and scraping for scraps off managements table. I will get on my hands and knees and pray five times daily – facing in the direction of CGF of course – that our managers will benevolently take care of me and my family, absent any self serving impulse. I know they are really busy, but I’m sure they have my fellow pilots best interests in mind.

And now that a just cause provision is nearly at hand I’m ready to forgo that and place my balls (figuratively of course) back into managements hands. I no longer feel that, as a professional, I deserve a contractual relationship with my employer. Only doctors, lawyers, home buyers, auto buyers, farmers who sell commodities, teachers, professional athletes, persons who purchase AKC canines, clergy members who lend their services to large denominations, and members of management deserve contracts. As for me I will simply trust in management’s generosity.

Also I’m sure you’re right, more than 33% of our pilots now agree with you and me. Look out union, the pilots want their parent, child relationship with management back.

 

[brokeflyer]

lo....i just threw up in mouth a little bit.

 

[convair580]

I have not posted much on this web-site! With that in mind I have to say that placing blame on the pilots or current management for recent furloughs is not the answer! The sole blame for this demise sits in the lap of Mike Schitfinger and his cronies(sanjay "may i get you a slurpy" Aggarwal). We need to keep focused on that fact that Mat Slinghoff is doing an incredible job as well as management negotioning team. This contract will get done soon and Flight options will prevail as a premier fractional in the industry. Along with Netjets! What we need to do is focus on doing our job as safely and professionally as possible.

In lite of the recent lay-offs, things have gotten better for us pilots. Management has gone out of their way to take care of us. I personally feel bad that I still have a job and the co-pilots that I have flown with in the last eight years do not. However this is the fault of schitfinger and may he rot in hell for his selfish attitude towards our clients and pilots. He has now screwed up two companies in aviation. Let's hope that there is not a third.

For people like B19 to blame the union for our demise is insane. He has not helped the situation. Not to mention the Net Jets pilots union that after begging us to join their cause abandon us when we needed them most! The unity in our union is stronger than ever and when the economic crisis turns upward we will still be there. Hopefully with the 104 pilots that has just been laid off!

In closing we all need to do are parts to make this company work and also support the union. Ask Mat Slinghoff and he would agree. But this anti-union and anti-Flight Options crap has got to stop. Our competitors would love see us fade into the dark. That is the true reason why Net Jets union hung us out to dry and made there own union. The more we work together the stronger we will be. We will fight on till we close the doors. I think a year from now we will be setting a new standard in the industry union and management alike.

I appoligize for all the grammitcal mistakes and spelling in advance.

 

[fischman]

Not bad for your first post.

See how he tries to get the FLOPS pilots to befriend him by saying how evil management is, then spreads hate towards NJASAP? See how he tries to spread separation? That is pretty clever.

The FLOPS pilots know that the NetJets pilots only left 1108 because we didn't need the teamsters anymore. We gave the FLOPS pilots everything they needed to succeed. What they did with those resources is up to 1108.

Now take a look at your strongest supporters on these boards. NJW, CA1900, Freedom, Dime Line, 993_Pilot, Semore Butts, Fischman, etc... How many of us are NJA people?

 

[Semore Butts]

I am

Hawker 800XP.

I left a non-union fractional to go to Netjets specifically because it had a union.

It has worked out very well for me.

 

[G4dude]

I left a non union fractional for another non union fractional which is now being absorbed by an in- house union subsidiary. Go figure!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Hawker 800XP.

I left a non-union fractional to go to Netjets specifically because it had a union.

It has worked out very well for me.

That is exactly what I have been advocating. If you are not happy with being in a non-union company, go and find a union job that fits you.


There are 33% of those pilots at FLOPS (plus the rest of the company) that didn't want the union.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I have not posted much on this web-site! With that in mind I have to say that placing blame on the pilots or current management for recent furloughs is not the answer! The sole blame for this demise sits in the lap of Mike Schitfinger and his cronies(sanjay "may i get you a slurpy" Aggarwal). We need to keep focused on that fact that Mat Slinghoff is doing an incredible job as well as management negotioning team. This contract will get done soon and Flight options will prevail as a premier fractional in the industry. Along with Netjets! What we need to do is focus on doing our job as safely and professionally as possible.

In lite of the recent lay-offs, things have gotten better for us pilots. Management has gone out of their way to take care of us. I personally feel bad that I still have a job and the co-pilots that I have flown with in the last eight years do not. However this is the fault of schitfinger and may he rot in hell for his selfish attitude towards our clients and pilots. He has now screwed up two companies in aviation. Let's hope that there is not a third.

For people like B19 to blame the union for our demise is insane. He has not helped the situation. Not to mention the Net Jets pilots union that after begging us to join their cause abandon us when we needed them most! The unity in our union is stronger than ever and when the economic crisis turns upward we will still be there. Hopefully with the 104 pilots that has just been laid off!

In closing we all need to do are parts to make this company work and also support the union. Ask Mat Slinghoff and he would agree. But this anti-union and anti-Flight Options crap has got to stop. Our competitors would love see us fade into the dark. That is the true reason why Net Jets union hung us out to dry and made there own union. The more we work together the stronger we will be. We will fight on till we close the doors. I think a year from now we will be setting a new standard in the industry union and management alike.

I appoligize for all the grammitcal mistakes and spelling in advance.

The demise isn't BECAUSE of the union, but the union will prevent future success by removing the ability for the company to adjust to the changing business climate.

It remains to be seen how the "industry leading contract" will fare through these rough times.

If two years from now we are looking at non-union fracs as being stable finanicially as well as a peaceful work environment compared to prolonged and bitter contract negotiations at NJ for concessions to their "industry leading contract" and FLOPS for the contract that never happened, then we'll know just how successful the union infiltration was.

I still predict that the "industry leading contract" will be in complete turmoil by this time next year.

 

[Flex-ible]

To some extent

There is no way
Flying airplanes safely is the pilot's job. Signing and retaining customers is management's job.

My PRIMARY job is to fly airplanes safely.

I think it is foolhardy to neglect the SECONDARY responsibility EVERY company employee has to help retain owners/customers. If I can make a passenger's experience the most outstanding one they have ever had, I have worked to preserve them as a customer - and preserve my job. Will I take a broken airplane because they really want to go? No. Will I dip under minimums looking for an airport because they don't want to divert? No. Will I run out to get the Grey Poupon the catereer forgot? Absolutely.

Ultimately, management will pay me better and give me better benefits because the company makes more money.