FLOPS Pilots vs FLOPS Pilots. Is this still going on?

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Hey y'all

Yesterday afternoon I found myself in an hotel elevator with 2 FLOPS pilots. They were both in the BE-400.

I mistakenly asked what the deal was with the layoffs and the one pilot went into a 30 sec dissertation about the:

drum roll please:

union pilots vs the company pilots. (surprise)

The basis of his argument was that the reason that FLOPS laid off was because there is only a certain amount of owners enrolled in the program. When these "union types" continue to break airplanes and write everything up under the sun at the last minute, you cancel flights. When you cancel flights you piss off owners and when you piss off owners, you loose them, in turn losing revenue and not flying the aircraft as much, in turn not needing as many pilots. Cough, cough.

He then turned and left the elevator. Obviously he is not a pro-union supporter.

My question stands as is the dissension in the pilot group still going on at FLOPS or is this guy living in a past time and is only an isolated case of disgust?

Continuing, is the reason that 100+ pilots were laid off is because some pilots continue to fly, dare I say it "the pledge" and drive owners away?

IF this is true, and I were one of the laid of pilots, I would be irate to say the least. Were is the "one for all and all for one" mentality in Cleveland, Ohio?

In closing, I am sure this will start a sh!t storm which I do not mean to do.

I just thought it was ironic that when passing a totally anonymous FLOPS pilot (that still is employed mind you) he went on a rampage like this after just being asked a simple question, basically blaming everyone that ever wrote up an airplane at the last minute, legitimate or not.
 

brokeflyer

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may i introduce to you.......skanza.



the problem is that management isnt doing their job.....thats why owners leave.
 

B19 Flyer

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Hey y'all

Yesterday afternoon I found myself in an hotel elevator with 2 FLOPS pilots. They were both in the BE-400.

I mistakenly asked what the deal was with the layoffs and the one pilot went into a 30 sec dissertation about the:

drum roll please:

union pilots vs the company pilots. (surprise)

The basis of his argument was that the reason that FLOPS laid off was because there is only a certain amount of owners enrolled in the program. When these "union types" continue to break airplanes and write everything up under the sun at the last minute, you cancel flights. When you cancel flights you piss off owners and when you piss off owners, you loose them, in turn losing revenue and not flying the aircraft as much, in turn not needing as many pilots. Cough, cough.

He then turned and left the elevator. Obviously he is not a pro-union supporter.

My question stands as is the dissension in the pilot group still going on at FLOPS or is this guy living in a past time and is only an isolated case of disgust?

Continuing, is the reason that 100+ pilots were laid off is because some pilots continue to fly, dare I say it "the pledge" and drive owners away?

IF this is true, and I were one of the laid of pilots, I would be irate to say the least. Were is the "one for all and all for one" mentality in Cleveland, Ohio?

In closing, I am sure this will start a sh!t storm which I do not mean to do.

I just thought it was ironic that when passing a totally anonymous FLOPS pilot (that still is employed mind you) he went on a rampage like this after just being asked a simple question, basically blaming everyone that ever wrote up an airplane at the last minute, legitimate or not.
It would be curious to see what would happen if the union vote happened today. Would the mix still have a full third of the pilots against the union or would it be higher?

Kind of like the presidential election... the media is loving our new president-elect while forgetting that there are 56 million who wanted no part of him.

The union will bang their drum touting how they had the "majority" vote, and never admit or even make the statement that a full one third of their own population did not want the union, as well as all of the non-pilot personnel because they also knew the turmoil a union would bring. The FLOPS employees that voted "yes" for the union were actually the minority of the entire population of the company.
 

fischman

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There is no way "Corporate Dude" is an NJA capt. I have NEVER met a captain aat NJA with that attitude.

Flying airplanes safely is the pilot's job. Signing and retaining customers is management's job.
 
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EX_CV580FR8Dawg

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It would be curious to see what would happen if the union vote happened today. Would the mix still have a full third of the pilots against the union or would it be higher?

Kind of like the presidential election... the media is loving our new president-elect while forgetting that there are 56 million who wanted no part of him.

The union will bang their drum touting how they had the "majority" vote, and never admit or even make the statement that a full one third of their own population did not want the union, as well as all of the non-pilot personnel because they also knew the turmoil a union would bring. The FLOPS employees that voted "yes" for the union were actually the minority of the entire population of the company.
FCK you B, Skumza and the rest of the non-union skum... if we wouldn't get abused and taken advantage of we wouldn't have to have a union.. How can you say that a union is so detrimental in this industry? We are trying to work with the company...we both want the same results..a healthy bottom line and prosperity. Yes there is give and take in this business but when all you get is take for doing the same job that your industry peers are doing, it gets a bit frustrating. I know it will be hard to negotiate the contract that we desire in an economic climate such as this and i don't think we are asking for the "world" just a fair shake. Everyone knows who is at the top of the food chain in the fractionals.. just the way it is. It would just be nice to be somewhat competitive. How can you say all unions are detrimental... look at how SWA's pilot group works with mgt to affect their position... I do support my union, i don't care for the union "zealots" as I don't care for the company ones either. What I do know is that I don't care for scum of your ilk. Have a Happy and safe Thanksgiving to All! Even you B19 and Skumza.
 

skyismyoffice

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I can't believe the union busting scumbags are exploiting the misfortune of the furloughed pilots. When you don't sell shares you can't run a fractional company. That's the real story.

Yea I don't have a job, but it's not the Union's fault.
 

brokeflyer

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Hey y'all

Yesterday afternoon I found myself in an hotel elevator with 2 FLOPS pilots. They were both in the BE-400.

I mistakenly asked what the deal was with the layoffs and the one pilot went into a 30 sec dissertation about the:

drum roll please:

union pilots vs the company pilots. (surprise)

The basis of his argument was that the reason that FLOPS laid off was because there is only a certain amount of owners enrolled in the program. When these "union types" continue to break airplanes and write everything up under the sun at the last minute, you cancel flights. When you cancel flights you piss off owners and when you piss off owners, you loose them, in turn losing revenue and not flying the aircraft as much, in turn not needing as many pilots. Cough, cough.

He then turned and left the elevator. Obviously he is not a pro-union supporter.

My question stands as is the dissension in the pilot group still going on at FLOPS or is this guy living in a past time and is only an isolated case of disgust?

Continuing, is the reason that 100+ pilots were laid off is because some pilots continue to fly, dare I say it "the pledge" and drive owners away?

IF this is true, and I were one of the laid of pilots, I would be irate to say the least. Were is the "one for all and all for one" mentality in Cleveland, Ohio?

In closing, I am sure this will start a sh!t storm which I do not mean to do.

I just thought it was ironic that when passing a totally anonymous FLOPS pilot (that still is employed mind you) he went on a rampage like this after just being asked a simple question, basically blaming everyone that ever wrote up an airplane at the last minute, legitimate or not.
Management crapped all over everyone, owners included. Pilots make money for the company, period. Management sucks it out faster than a kirby, go look at the parking lot, BMW, Audi, etc.....

it's sad that management can kill a company like that, and they just move on to the next dying planet, like a virus. Just look at the new CEO for XOjet......same thing.

sad...and that's undisputable.
 
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There is no way "Corporate Dude" is an NJA capt. I have NEVER met a captain aat NJA with that attitude.

Flying airplanes safely is the pilot's job. Signing and retaining customers is management's job.
Just exactly what "attitude" around you speaking of?? I was just mearly asking questions about what a FLOPS pilot told me in an elevator. It wasn't my idea, it was his!

The funny thing is that 2 other NJA pilots ran into this same FLOPS pilot, and the next day when were getting the airplanes ready to fly, in passing, one of the other NJA pilots that I had met previously came over to me and asked me if I ran into a union bashing FLOPS pilot last night in the concierge lounge. I said yes, but it was in the elevator.

This thread is not intended to have an attitude in it and I resent your remark! :mad:

And yes, you are correct - Pilot's fly the aircraft safely and management takes care of everthing else. That is generally how it works.

Even more reason for me posting this thread asking a question about what is going on at FLOPS!

Obvioulsy you mis-read my post.

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving to all! I hope your home with families.
 
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Freedom

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Didn't I tell you'll Bob19 wants Hearts and Minds...

It would be curious to see what would happen if the union vote happened today. Would the mix still have a full third of the pilots against the union or would it be higher?

Kind of like the presidential election... the media is loving our new president-elect while forgetting that there are 56 million who wanted no part of him.

The union will bang their drum touting how they had the "majority" vote, and never admit or even make the statement that a full one third of their own population did not want the union, as well as all of the non-pilot personnel because they also knew the turmoil a union would bring. The FLOPS employees that voted "yes" for the union were actually the minority of the entire population of the company.
And he and the rest of his Management kin folk don't care how they get it either.

They will lay Pilots off, just to set up a situation that they can attempt to cause a divide amongst the Pilots remaining.

They all know there are plenty of Captains remaining who flew with the FOs who got let go (Management's choice, not the Union's), and that many have become friends.

If B19 with his Blue Typing Pschological ploys can convince those Captains who lost friends that it was the Union's fault, then they can attempt to swing Hearts and Minds away from the Union (Solidified Pilot Group) and towards Management.

I agree; the individual that started this thread, no way he is a NetJets Pilot.

This just shows how far Management will go in an attempt to Break the Union. They will put Pilots on the street, and then attempt to spin it to meet their own political goals (removal of the union).

Think about it: If the Pilot Union wasn't such a threat to Management's Greed at Flight Options, would they continue to attempt such ploys? It is time for the Flight Options Pilots to show this Greedy Management Team that they will accept nothing less than a Fair Contract, and that Management Stall Tactics will no longer be tolerated.

Fair Contract or Shut the Doors.


Freedom is Not Free
 

B19 Flyer

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FCK you B, Skumza and the rest of the non-union skum... if we wouldn't get abused and taken advantage of we wouldn't have to have a union.. How can you say that a union is so detrimental in this industry? We are trying to work with the company...we both want the same results..a healthy bottom line and prosperity. Yes there is give and take in this business but when all you get is take for doing the same job that your industry peers are doing, it gets a bit frustrating. I know it will be hard to negotiate the contract that we desire in an economic climate such as this and i don't think we are asking for the "world" just a fair shake. Everyone knows who is at the top of the food chain in the fractionals.. just the way it is. It would just be nice to be somewhat competitive. How can you say all unions are detrimental... look at how SWA's pilot group works with mgt to affect their position... I do support my union, i don't care for the union "zealots" as I don't care for the company ones either. What I do know is that I don't care for scum of your ilk. Have a Happy and safe Thanksgiving to All! Even you B19 and Skumza.
Apparently you aren't aware of the nagative impact unions have had on the industry. Oh, I know.. you'll talk about Safety and pilot wages/work rules. For every program offered by industry, unions have watered them down to the point they are mere shells of how they started out. One of my favorites in the camera on the flight deck that will never happen because the unions fight it so much. The NTSB wants it... and the unions don't. Keep that in mind in the future for accident investations, that the union has forced the withholding of valuable data because their pilots may not be acting in the professional manner that the unions press state they do.

SWA has a unique contract that most likely won't happen again. It was based on profit sharing and was a 10 year deal. They are the outlier in the industry, but that's going to end soon.
 

brokeflyer

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I already said undisputed......so the rest of these posts are irrelavant.

Managent asks for the union they get. That is just teh way world is. If management would stop destroying companies, then labor unions would go away. it's good vs. evil......you need evil management to have good unions.

undisputed.

Need these threads locked now.......im gettin tired of saying the same truth over and over.
 

Freedom

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No Bob19, its not our Industry...

Apparently you aren't aware of the nagative impact unions have had on the industry. Oh, I know.. you'll talk about Safety and pilot wages/work rules. For every program offered by industry, unions have watered them down to the point they are mere shells of how they started out. One of my favorites in the camera on the flight deck that will never happen because the unions fight it so much. The NTSB wants it... and the unions don't. Keep that in mind in the future for accident investations, that the union has forced the withholding of valuable data because their pilots may not be acting in the professional manner that the unions press state they do.

SWA has a unique contract that most likely won't happen again. It was based on profit sharing and was a 10 year deal. They are the outlier in the industry, but that's going to end soon.
What you refer to is the Airline Industry. This is the Fractional Industry. I know you like to draw the comparison in an attempt to make your antiunion scab motivated point, but it is without merit.

In this Fractional Industry, there are 4 major Jet players: NetJets, FlexJet, Citation Shares, and Flight Options. Thus far, only one has been successful in securing a Union Contract: NetJets.

Flight Options will be next. But you and your fellow Management Greed counterparts wish to stop the Workers Unite in our industry right here. You know if Flight Options Pilots are also successsful in obtaining a Contract that improve wages and benefits, that FlexJet and Citation Shares will shortly follow. That will give Fractional Pilots alot of leverage in our Industry (not the Airline industry) to command respectable wages and benefits for the Professional job we do.

That will also require that YOU have the ability to compete on a level playing field with the competition within our industry, without the benefits of hiding your inabilities on the backs of substandard compensation within your Pilot ranks.

Its all starting to make more sense now.

Freedom is Not Free
 

993_Pilot

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... One of my favorites in the camera on the flight deck that will never happen because the unions fight it so much. The NTSB wants it... and the unions don't. Keep that in mind in the future for accident investations, that the union has forced the withholding of valuable data because their pilots may not be acting in the professional manner that the unions press state they do.
How would you like a camera in your office, so all the everything that you did was recorded? That way the board of directors and the union could review all your actions leading up to the disaster that we have now? Go ahead and tell us all that you would welcome it.

SWA has a unique contract that most likely won't happen again. It was based on profit sharing and was a 10 year deal. They are the outlier in the industry, but that's going to end soon.
Yes, it is unique. That doesn't mean that it won't/can't happen again. You're a manager, so offer us something that includes profit sharing, beyond the measly $250 fuel burn bonus. I'll be happy to tie my salary to profits if management does the same. If you give up your golden parachutes and tie your salary to profits (not revenue, growth or some other metric) we would all be in the same boat, and you would probably gain the respect of your workforce. Be creative, be constructive, Be a leader!
 

glasspilot

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When CVRs came out the unions said, "fine, but they will NEVER EVER be released to the public" for fear of families of dead pilots having to hear the final moments and the NTSB and FAA agreed. Guess what? Those tapes are now being released to the public.

Now they want footage that will assuredly end up on the nightly news, youtube and a million other places.

Having my brains splattered all over the inside of the windows would be traumatic enough for my wife and kids without them having to watch it over and over in slow motion, complete with the "magic screen" and talking head cometary pointing out this is my fault. Keep the cameras out!
 
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brokeflyer

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once again...management only looking at the bottom layer. Management 101 should teach on day 1, "look at the big picture".

we can keep this thread going froever if ya want, but the fact of the matter is, yes i said fact. Is management kills a company, they have no desire to see it through because they can always take the money and run......fact.

undisputable.
 
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B19 Flyer

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How would you like a camera in your office, so all the everything that you did was recorded? That way the board of directors and the union could review all your actions leading up to the disaster that we have now? Go ahead and tell us all that you would welcome it.

Well.. you don't spend much time in large corporate headquarters do you? Pretty much everything is done under the watchful eye of a camera in the sake of security, not safety. The idea of having a camera on the flight deck is to improve safety. So the answer is yes, I do welcome the cameras because there is a positive meaning behind it and I know that it improves safety and security in the building.



Yes, it is unique. That doesn't mean that it won't/can't happen again.

It's not going to happen again, the new union MEC has already sent a clear message they want a more standard contract. Those days are as good as over.

You're a manager, so offer us something that includes profit sharing, beyond the measly $250 fuel burn bonus. I'll be happy to tie my salary to profits if management does the same.

Unions don't want to take that risk, you know that as well as i do. That's why there are so few contracts with that carrot built in. They don't want to take a pay cut when there is no profit, they want every last golden egg that goose can produce.

If you give up your golden parachutes and tie your salary to profits (not revenue, growth or some other metric) we would all be in the same boat, and you would probably gain the respect of your workforce. Be creative, be constructive, Be a leader!
..................
 

brokeflyer

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they dont wanna take a pay because management (who got the company in the hole in the first place) wont take a pay cut.

They furlough pilots and take their salaries away, then all drive off in their Beamers and Audi's and go drink Manhattan's.......with the money they just took from the pilots.

The problem is management is too greedy for it's own britches. Unions are needed to vaccinate the work force from that growing disease.


next?
 

fischman

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Bull CRAP!

B19,

Are you going to tell me you have a camera watching you in YOUR office. Recording the phone calls. Recording the meetings. Recording what you do on the computer? Yet another lie from you.


BULL!!!
 

fischman

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Just exactly what "attitude" around you speaking of?? I was just mearly asking questions about what a FLOPS pilot told me in an elevator. It wasn't my idea, it was his!

The funny thing is that 2 other NJA pilots ran into this same FLOPS pilot, and the next day when were getting the airplanes ready to fly, in passing, one of the other NJA pilots that I had met previously came over to me and asked me if I ran into a union bashing FLOPS pilot last night in the concierge lounge. I said yes, but it was in the elevator.

This thread is not intended to have an attitude in it and I resent your remark! :mad: "Continuing, is the reason that 100+ pilots were laid off is because some pilots continue to fly, dare I say it "the pledge" and drive owners away?

IF this is true, and I were one of the laid of pilots, I would be irate to say the least. Were is the "one for all and all for one" mentality in Cleveland, Ohio?" Sound familiar? This remark is what attitude I'm referring to. If you resent it, too bad. Am I misunderstanding you?
And yes, you are correct - Pilot's fly the aircraft safely and management takes care of everthing else. That is generally how it works.

Even more reason for me posting this thread asking a question about what is going on at FLOPS!

Obvioulsy you mis-read my post.

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving to all! I hope your home with families.
.....
 
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