FLOPS Pilots vs FLOPS Pilots. Is this still going on?

[B19 Flyer]

He is well aware the Majority of the Flight Options Pilots are in firm support of their Union and its Leadership.

What he hopes to do, is convince some of those in support, to become dissatisfied with the amount of time it takes to negotiate a first contract, in an attempt to fracture support for the Union.

He knows most Pilots are too lazy to do the research (let's face it, research is a lawyer thing, not a Pilot thing), and discover that it is a known fact, that when a newly elected union sets foot on a property, the AVERAGE time to a first contract is 4 years. That is a fact. Don't believe me? Call your local Labor Attorney and ask him. And that is the time including contracts settled under the non transportation unions. Those of us in the transportation sector fall under a special area of the law, the Railway Labor Act, the primary goal of which is to maintain public transportation uninterupted. Although we fly private, since we operate under Part 135 and therefore can fly the Public, we fall under this more restrictive law.

It sucks. It is a long drawn out process, tilted to a great extent in favor of the employer providing the public transportation. The only real leverage the employee group has is to act as a Solidifed Unit during negotiations, following the directives of your leadership in great numbers. There is strength in numbers, Bob19 knows this, which is why he is constantly attempting to cause division among the Pilot group. He knows, divided we will fall.

But what he won't admit, is that our Pilots are learning how the Game is played, and although he continues his attempts, he is not fooling anyone other than himself.

So continue with your banter Bob19. We know who and what you are, and you're not fooling anyone but yourself.


Freedom is Not Free

The pilots shouldn't have to learn the game. Union leadership should have had full disclosure to its membership prior to voting.

The only ones fooled are the idiots that believed the union was acting in their best interest.

Didn't 1108 tell its members that in the beginning? Did 1108 tell them that there may be layoffs and a lot of turmoil for over 3 years before they voted the union onto the property? Did 1108 tell them that the company would be come stagnant to the point of no growth over this period of time? Did 1108 tell the union membership that the NJ pilots were going to bail out of 1108 after they got their contract and go on their own, effectively weakening the overall union, and last but not least, did 1108 tell the new membership if they didn't get it done quickly and if the economy tanked than the industry leading contract enjoyed by NJ (which I think will be short lived) is nothing more than a pipe dream?

The union never tells the membership the full truth, because the membership can't handle the truth and would have never signed up for the impossible dream.

 

[dime line]

The union never tells the membership the full truth

And you, in management do tell the truth? Right?

 

[FR8DOG777]

corporate accountability

So please explain how the 1108 could have gotten the job done 1.9? Sign a substandard contract effectively making the current work rules standard policy? I dare you to name one gdamn thing shrinky dink and punjab did for this company? Just one. Where is the accountability? The greed and self interest ran rampant and unchecked. Were gonna get a fair contract, or were gonna lesson the amount of money going into greedy incompetent managers pockets like you till the last day in business, which by the looks of things may be sooner than later.

 

[993_Pilot]

...Did 1108 tell them that there may be layoffs and a lot of turmoil for over 3 years before they voted the union onto the property?

Yes. In fact, they said it could be closer to 4 years. We were very aware of managements tactics to stall and make excuses before this thing started, but we had been hearing them for years anyways.

Did 1108 tell them that the company would be come stagnant to the point of no growth over this period of time?

Yes, but anyone with common sense already knows this.

Did 1108 tell the union membership that the NJ pilots were going to bail out of 1108 after they got their contract and go on their own, effectively weakening the overall union

No, they aren't fortune tellers, are you?

...and last but not least, did 1108 tell the new membership if they didn't get it done quickly and if the economy tanked than the industry leading contract enjoyed by NJ (which I think will be short lived) is nothing more than a pipe dream?

No, did you predict the economy tanking? The union was perfectly willing to get it done quickly, but management kept stalling. We are bound to negotiate according to the RLA, so there wasn't much we could do. Unfortunately, in the mean time, the greedy Managers of the mortgage giants and the securities industries, lead their investors down the primrose path while the Managers of the oil companies raped us all. All this happened while the ultimate Manager, George W. Bush spent at record levels and gave us a record budget deficiency after inheriting a record surplus. He also stood by and watched as his buddies in the oil & gas business took record profits from you and me. It was the Managers of the world that lead us to the predicament the economy is in now!

The union never tells the membership the full truth, because the membership can't handle the truth and would have never signed up for the impossible dream.

So is it OK for management to use marketing hype and call themselves "an industry leading provider", but the union is expected to fortell the future and warn of the bleakest possibilities for their members? Amazing statement coming from someone who can't even answer one simple question . . . Who do you work for ????

 

[Flightbag]

Southwest is 100% unionized. They seem to do just fine.

 

[993_Pilot]

Southwest is 100% unionized. They seem to do just fine.

I've been telling B19 that for a while and he just keeps saying that they're the exception, blah, blah, blah. The real reason is because management works together with the union. Nobody stands around pointing fingers when something goes wrong, instead, everyone pitches in and helps. I've seen deadheading captains pass out peanuts and help clean the aircraft on a quick turn. I went to one of their Christmas parties several years ago and I saw the Manager of IT offering to come throw bags if they would help him run some networking cables in anticipation of opening a new destination... all on their own time! Herb Kelleher really knew how to inspire his people! It's too bad the likes of B19 can't see that side of the coin, and instead chooses to blame everything on the union. A lot can be accomplished when both sides work together.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I've been telling B19 that for a while and he just keeps saying that they're the exception, blah, blah, blah. The real reason is because management works together with the union. Nobody stands around pointing fingers when something goes wrong, instead, everyone pitches in and helps. I've seen deadheading captains pass out peanuts and help clean the aircraft on a quick turn. I went to one of their Christmas parties several years ago and I saw the Manager of IT offering to come throw bags if they would help him run some networking cables in anticipation of opening a new destination... all on their own time! Herb Kelleher really knew how to inspire his people! It's too bad the likes of B19 can't see that side of the coin, and instead chooses to blame everything on the union. A lot can be accomplished when both sides work together.

Now, as I've been telling you... the pilot contract was a ten year deal based on profit sharing. All the "elders" that negotiated that contract are gone. The new group wants a traditional ALPA style contract, and when that happens, the great SWA experiment will be over and they will be no different than the others. Flight attendents there are no different.

Everybody uses the SWA as the rare example of a good contract, but what nobody on these boards will admit is that is was a unique contract based on a unique business plan. If the contract pulls away from profit sharing and the pilots no longer share "the pain" of business losses, you can bet your bippy that SWA will be no different than any other carrier at that point.

 

[Semore Butts]

An expert on everycompany in aviation

B-19 said;

Everybody uses the SWA as the rare example of a good contract, but what nobody on these boards will admit is that is was a unique contract based on a unique business plan

Is this what the union buster headquarters is telling you?

Do you guys have like territories? I.E. you work Fractionals? Your other union buster buddy works Majors?

 

[993_Pilot]

Divide and conquer? That's what 1108 tried to do three years ago and none of the FLOPS pilots are satisfied with the progress made...

Divide and Conquer is what you're trying to do now.

Now, as I've been telling you... the pilot contract was a ten year deal based on profit sharing. All the "elders" that negotiated that contract are gone. The new group wants a traditional ALPA style contract, and when that happens, the great SWA experiment will be over and they will be no different than the others... Everybody uses the SWA as the rare example of a good contract, but what nobody on these boards will admit is that is was a unique contract based on a unique business plan. If the contract pulls away from profit sharing and the pilots no longer share "the pain" of business losses, you can bet your bippy that SWA will be no different than any other carrier at that point.

You might be right, and that would be sad. However, I never said that SWA contract wasn't unique, just an example of what can be done when management works with the union, instead of against it. Since Flops always bills themselves as "an industry leading provider", maybe they should be industry leading for real, and negotiate a contract that would be very unique and industry leading... We already know that we're probably not going to get pay better than NJA, so management could offer profit sharing make it easier to convince the masses that accepting lower pay now could result in better than NJA pay later. This economy is the perfect time to do it! If the pilots bonuses are tied to the same goals as managements, everyone sinks or swims together! When everyone has the same goals, you would probably see it foster the same type of spirit seen at SWA. When the economy turns around, and everyone is making more than their counterparts at NJA, we would be the envy of the fractional industry, and maybe the next example that could be held up to others. This type of profit sharing arangement has been proven to work very well in the Silicon Valley with lots of companies. A Win-Win is possible if you're willing to think outside the box a bit.

 

[Publishers]

Everyone wants a fixed deal with security in a non-fixed world with little security. A fixed deal does not have the flexibility to deal with the ups and downs of the market.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Back to the original question

Hey y'all

Yesterday afternoon I found myself in an hotel elevator with 2 FLOPS pilots. They were both in the BE-400.

I mistakenly asked what the deal was with the layoffs and the one pilot went into a 30 sec dissertation about the:

drum roll please:

union pilots vs the company pilots. (surprise)

The basis of his argument was that the reason that FLOPS laid off was because there is only a certain amount of owners enrolled in the program. When these "union types" continue to break airplanes and write everything up under the sun at the last minute, you cancel flights. When you cancel flights you piss off owners and when you piss off owners, you loose them, in turn losing revenue and not flying the aircraft as much, in turn not needing as many pilots. Cough, cough.

He then turned and left the elevator. Obviously he is not a pro-union supporter.

My question stands as is the dissension in the pilot group still going on at FLOPS or is this guy living in a past time and is only an isolated case of disgust?

Continuing, is the reason that 100+ pilots were laid off is because some pilots continue to fly, dare I say it "the pledge" and drive owners away?

IF this is true, and I were one of the laid of pilots, I would be irate to say the least. Were is the "one for all and all for one" mentality in Cleveland, Ohio?

In closing, I am sure this will start a sh!t storm which I do not mean to do.

I just thought it was ironic that when passing a totally anonymous FLOPS pilot (that still is employed mind you) he went on a rampage like this after just being asked a simple question, basically blaming everyone that ever wrote up an airplane at the last minute, legitimate or not.

Now that Moron boy B19 with the help of pilots that refuse to ignore him have effectively hijacked this thread, I'd like to respond to your original question.

The friction that does still exist between some of the management suck up pilots and union supporters does not rise the level of open conflict. For the most part the management suck ups have become very timid about speaking out against the Union and what the Union has done and continues to do. They know they do not have a leg to stand on when trying to defend the incompetent management that has run our company into the ground. Their only argument is the same irrational mi-optic anti union rhetoric that we see from moron boy B19. The anti union ranks are led by pilots like moron boy Ed M. who starts his jet with the engine plugs in, grinding half of the plug away, lies about doing it, flys multiple legs on it, then turns it over to another unsuspecting crew before finally having to admit to his stupidity. The pilots that continue to sunk up to the management tit are the weakest of all our pilots and need to have managements blessing and benevolence to continue their employment. As long as we have these weak incompetent pilots in tow there will always be a low level friction.

 

[993_Pilot]

Surfer,

No disrespect, but do you really think that Mr. 5 post, "Corportate Dude" is not B19 or one of his ilk posting with a flame baiting thread title like that? I know a lot of people ignore Bob19, but the reality is that his sole purpose here is to divide and conquer the union supporters, especially those who aren't solid in their thinking. The flaws in his anti-union B.S. need to be exposed or contested at every post. Ignore him if you want (and I fully understand why you would want to), but just understand the consequences.

 

[993_Pilot]

Everyone wants a fixed deal with security in a non-fixed world with little security. A fixed deal does not have the flexibility to deal with the ups and downs of the market.

The standard answer of a union buster... What a load of crap. What we want is something fair. When the economy was good, there was some truth to that statement, but we all understand than we probably won't get NJA like wages in this economy. The offer of fair wages now, with profit sharing (based on the same objectives as management's bonuses), would make this reality much easier to swallow. Now all they have to do is sit down at the tables and figure out the language.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Surfer,

No disrespect, but do you really think that Mr. 5 post, "Corportate Dude" is not B19 or one of his ilk posting with a flame baiting thread title like that? I know a lot of people ignore Bob19, but the reality is that his sole purpose here is to divide and conquer the union supporters, especially those who aren't solid in their thinking. The flaws in his anti-union B.S. need to be exposed or contested at every post. Ignore him if you want (and I fully understand why you would want to), but just understand the consequences.

The flaw in your theory is giving this moron a continuing venue to play his union busting games. Anyone can tell from the bilge that he spews what his agenda is. By continually responding to him in every thread he shows up in you enable him and actually help him to continue his mission. He disrupts every discussion with the same regurgitation of the same mindless crap, never addresses the true issues, avoids pointed questions about his views and why he has them. By quoting him and responding to his union busting post you give him a backboard against which to play his game. If he were completely ignored he soon would realize the game is over, his BS is not even being seen and fade away into the cesspool he came form.

 

[B19 Flyer]

The flaw in your theory is giving this moron a continuing venue to play his union busting games. Anyone can tell from the bilge that he spews what his agenda is. By continually responding to him in every thread he shows up in you enable him and actually help him to continue his mission. He disrupts every discussion with the same regurgitation of the same mindless crap, never addresses the true issues, avoids pointed questions about his views and why he has them. By quoting him and responding to his union busting post you give him a backboard against which to play his game. If he were completely ignored he soon would realize the game is over, his BS is not even being seen and fade away into the cesspool he came form.

Surfer, your babble is meaningless and you've been thinking since the beginning I have an agenda. I don't. I watch all the turmoil union mongers like you put yourselves through as pure entertainment. It's not a secret, never has been. You've just never walked in the steps of where the tough work is done. All you can do is imagine what it's like to be responsible for an entire company and think you can rule the world with your union agenda. Get of your high horse and sit behind that desk for a while. I've done both and know where the real challenge is. The soft leather chair in a nice warm office is much more challenging than flying the line, but it's not as much fun.

 

[993_Pilot]

The flaw in your theory is giving this moron a continuing venue to play his union busting games. Anyone can tell from the bilge that he spews what his agenda is. By continually responding to him in every thread he shows up in you enable him and actually help him to continue his mission. He disrupts every discussion with the same regurgitation of the same mindless crap, never addresses the true issues, avoids pointed questions about his views and why he has them. By quoting him and responding to his union busting post you give him a backboard against which to play his game. If he were completely ignored he soon would realize the game is over, his BS is not even being seen and fade away into the cesspool he came form.

You are right, but the problem is that "EVERYONE" won't ignore him. When I'm the last one, I'll happily put him on ignore, but I don't expect that will be anytime soon. In the mean time, people who see his posts will get to see the other side of the story too.

 

[brokeflyer]

he can play these games all day long, the fact comes down to management sucking the life outta everyone at every company. That FACT is undisputed.

So these threads are really pointless because I am right and that's that.....

 

[Voice Of Reason]

This thread is pure flamebait, started with the intention of getting us all to fight each other, rather than the true enemy of our jobs

 

[B19 Flyer]

You are right, but the problem is that "EVERYONE" won't ignore him. When I'm the last one, I'll happily put him on ignore, but I don't expect that will be anytime soon. In the mean time, people who see his posts will get to see the other side of the story too.

I've invited folks to ignore me, that what the function is for.

I've also seen four year olds stick their fingers in their ears and jump up and down when adults are saying what they don't want to hear.

And yes, I'm comparing those that use the "ignore" function with four year olds. It's appropriate.

It doesn't change the fact that others have opinions, it just means that you don't have thick enough skin to handle the truth from the other side.

 

[brokeflyer]

thread death please.....