Flops Pilots going after their own

[ProFracPilot]

Why cant all the anti union guys who dont support the union just not receive any benefit from it..They dont pay dues and in return they receive no union protections, raise, benefits, or anything else that your contract has to offer? Let them stay at there current pay scale or negotiate with the company directly on there pay? Keep them at will to work employees? I am being very serious about this..I would like a serious answer to this question..

I can't quote the law (it may be part of the RLA), but the union is REQUIRED to represent all individuals to whom a collective bargaining agreement applies. In this case it is all the FlOps pilots covered by the CBA. This representation is mandated regardless of a pilot's status. In a worse case scenario, a union dissenter FlOps pilot has an issue where management brings disciplinary action against the individual. The dissenter can request, and is required to be provided, 1108 representation in the matter to assure his/her rights under the CBA are fully met.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure this is the case.

 

[ultrarunner]

So, then no real advantage to paying dues? I'll have to check an old CBA....

 

[imacdog]

So, then no real advantage to paying dues? I'll have to check an old CBA....

Dues payer or fee payer, the money comes out of the paycheck either way. The difference being, dues payers are able to vote in union elections, contracts, etc.

 

[Helmsalee]

Ultra, you can pay fees or dues. The union is required, by law, to represent you whether you pay or not. If you chose to pay neither, then eventually, you will be terminated. This has been established over decades of labor law. Nobody says you have to like it, but it is fact, and you better accept it.
Helm

 

[hogbody]

Okay, it is a closed shop. Fine. From the date of the contract. Why should our independent pilot have to pay back to '06, to fund a fight he didn't believe in?

Because in 2006, the company was intentionally being run into the ground by the evil former CEO. Had he succeeded, Flight Options would probably not exist today. Most Flops pilots recognized this and supported joining IBT 1108. Many considered the facts and decided not to support unionization. The union was voted in, and many who had voted against it did the right thing: they respected the vote of the majority and supported 1108 in every way their leadership requested. Today many of those former anti-union pilots are highly respected committee leaders and members.
Not surprisingly, the large majority of those who have not paid their back dues are the same guys you would never want to spend an 8 day tour with. They don't take their profession seriously, they are perfectly happy leaving the airplane looking like crap, and nothing is ever their fault. The folks I'm talking about are terminally lazy, never committed to anything, and will throw you under the bus in a heartbeat if it will make them look better. Few, if any, of the remaining non-MIGS are honorable men and women who oppose the union on moral grounds. They are simply bottom feeders.

 

[dime line]

Today many of those former anti-union pilots are highly respected committee leaders and members.

Don't know about the "Highly respected" part.

 

[petebest]

Here's what we're talking about

I really wish this hadn’t come up on here since it’s an issue internal to our pilot group. But since it has, let me try to clear up some confusion.

Flight Options like NJ is an agency shop. This means our pilots have to, as a condition of employment pay dues going forward, from the day the contract was ratified. They have no legal obligation to pay dues prior to that date. The union has enforced the agency shop provision of the contract and all Flops pilots are currently paying either dues (as members in good standing) or are paying the agency fee. So our pilots have every right not to be members of the union and know one is saying otherwise.

Where the problem comes in is that the Local 1108 by-laws stipulate that a pilot must have paid dues since November of 2006 – when the bylaws were ratified by the membership – in order to be in good standing. Many of the delinquent pilots would owe between three and four thousand dollars in dues to become in good standing and the union’s leadership, with an understanding that this would be an unreasonable hardship, began offering a payment plan. In exchange for paying about $50 per month and agreeing to apply this amount towards back dues until they are paid off, the delinquent pilots are made in good standing. Add into the mix the fact that on Jan 1 of this year all pilots at Flops (including the delinquent ones) got a sizable pay increase. Finally, from what I understand this is a small percentage of our overall group.

So it is against this backdrop that many of our pilots are upset with these freeloaders. Many of them paid nothing - that's right nothing zero zilch - to achieve the contract they currently benefit from. They were offered a payment plan to make it right and rejected it and they recently got another raise the rest of us paid for. Most importantly in the long run, by thumbing their noses at the rest of us, they will undermine our efforts in the future by letting management know that if we ever go on strike they will cross the line. This negatively impacts the bargaining dynamic in favor of the company, before negotiations even begin.

I don’t think NJ has any pilots who are not in good standing with their union. Aside from the economic situation we found ourselves during our contract negotiations, this is why they were more successful then us the last two times they went to the table. So no, our delinquent freeloading pilots do not have to get in good standing, but I think the union’s leadership wants the rest of us to understand the consequences if they do not. I also believe they have come under increasing pressure from the pilots to expose the freeloaders.

As for Waco’s argument about difference of opinion, if we ever go on strike and someone scabs, I could give a rat’s a$$ about that scabs opinion. I feel much the same about these freeloaders.

Pete

 

[ultrarunner]

Ok, so Pete has an excellent response. With that said, at what point does the 'Union' ask the company to terminate these pilots? Is the 'ratting out list' a last-ditch-effort to bring them into compliance?

 

[OldCrow]

Ok, so Pete has an excellent response. With that said, at what point does the 'Union' ask the company to terminate these pilots? Is the 'ratting out list' a last-ditch-effort to bring them into compliance?

You just don't get it runner...nobody is going to get fired. All the pilots are paying dues in one form or another, so NOBODY is going to get fired. However, some have not paid there back dues, so they are not in good standing. We want them to be in good standing....nobody is going to get fired, at least not for paying dues. If you don't know what it means to be in good standing, please read Pete's post again. If you work for FLOPs I suggest you take a read through the contract, cause you just ain't picking it up.

 

[Alaska82]

Ok, so Pete has an excellent response. With that said, at what point does the 'Union' ask the company to terminate these pilots? Is the 'ratting out list' a last-ditch-effort to bring them into compliance?

After the contract ratification every pilot pays 1.56%. Some call the payment dues and some call it a agency fee. To vote you have to be a MIG. To be protected by the CBA you have to pay 1.56%. The only way someone could be terminated is if they refused to pay the 1.56% in which case they would have already been terminated.

I believe none union members, that are represented by the CBA pay agency fees. Union members pay dues. Some union members might not be MIGS i think most are.

When the Union was first voted in they claimed no dues until a CBA. They changed the by-laws to require dues payments from 2006 on. Some people started voluntarily paying some did not. This might be why all union members are not migs.

I would like all pilots to be MIGS. With 100% of pilots being MIGS it sends a message to management, that we are united. The more Unity we display the better. The union is here to stay, you have to pay 1.56% anyway why not have the right to vote. At least then your voice is heard. And if you don't agree with the way the union is currently being run you can try and change it with your vote.

I cannot think of one reason not to be a MIG. So please enlighten me on the subject.

 

[ultrarunner]

You just don't get it runner...nobody is going to get fired. All the pilots are paying dues in one form or another, so NOBODY is going to get fired. ....

Easy there OldCrow, I thought I saw earlier in the thread that you're "free loaders" were subject to termination. Apparently i read wrong.

So I get it, put these guys and girls on a 'list' and go from there in an attempt to rat them out to get your back-taxes.

By all accounts it's been reported on this thread that your 'free loaders' are a very small group. With that said, I'd be interested in how much money we're really talking about here, when measured against the Union's 'monthly take'.

Ultra

 

[wacoflyr]

I was gonna shut up, but I just can't stand this. These guys, for their own reasons, possibly ethical, didn't want a union. One got voted in any way, which I applauded. Now, even though they pay dues you guys, fellow pilots, are going after them, because they don't agree with the contract. Even worse, you state that one of the primary reasons is so that you will present a more united front to the company! Let's handcuff these guys, so we can say they are the same as us! We value appearances more than facts. Nice.

These pilots didn't support your fight, because it went against their beliefs, and you are going to publish a list of pilots who might have objected on principle, and didn't want to pay for a fight they didn't believe in. This shows a complete lack of respect for differences of opinion that your fellow pilots might have. Any idea of the democratic process in this union has evaporated. I sure hope you guys never talk about politics or religion in the cockpit.

Remember, someday, we will all, all of us be in the minority. is this how you would like to be treated?

don't tell me that you are any different than management when it comes to strong-arming pilots. I think you're better at it. You have no respect for minority opinion. And don't try to raise the flag. Individuality is dead at Flops. Lockstep guys, lockstep.

 

[onetimer]

Let me say again.....the list that will come out on Feb 1 wil be of MIGS.....is this clear... The list WILL NOT be of the freeloaders...

 

[wacoflyr]

Let me say again.....the list that will come out on Feb 1 wil be of MIGS.....is this clear... The list WILL NOT be of the freeloaders...

Right. Even a first-grader can subtract. Just how is this different than publishing the names of those who didn't agree with you? C'mon, at least be honest. Or, if you're gonna bullsh!t, be a little more clever.

No doubt I have just made a raft on enemies at FLOPS. I am truly sorry about that. But I don't like this kind of double talk. Treat your fellow pilots with respect and understanding. Don't judge them so harshly just because they believe differently than you. They still do a tough, tough job with you, remember? And they have families to feed, just as you do. Band of Brothers first. Differences after a cold one, if then.

 

[BE40Driver]

The List

It is ALL about MONEY and showing managment support, no matter what the pilots think. Maybe some of them will pay for a chance to vote for NEW Leadership at the 1108.

 

[993_Pilot]

Some of you are simply missing the point. The principled (or cheap) few who don't want to pay dues are mostly, already well known. It's the Chicken $h!t pilots that want to try and play both sides that are the only ones who truly have anything to lose here... and it's about time!

 

[Praetorian]

I was gonna shut up, but I just can't stand this. These guys, for their own reasons, possibly ethical, didn't want a union. One got voted in any way, which I applauded. Now, even though they pay dues you guys, fellow pilots, are going after them, because they don't agree with the contract. Even worse, you state that one of the primary reasons is so that you will present a more united front to the company! Let's handcuff these guys, so we can say they are the same as us! We value appearances more than facts. Nice.

These pilots didn't support your fight, because it went against their beliefs, and you are going to publish a list of pilots who might have objected on principle, and didn't want to pay for a fight they didn't believe in. This shows a complete lack of respect for differences of opinion that your fellow pilots might have. Any idea of the democratic process in this union has evaporated. I sure hope you guys never talk about politics or religion in the cockpit.

Remember, someday, we will all, all of us be in the minority. is this how you would like to be treated?

don't tell me that you are any different than management when it comes to strong-arming pilots. I think you're better at it. You have no respect for minority opinion. And don't try to raise the flag. Individuality is dead at Flops. Lockstep guys, lockstep.

There are only two sides to this question. Every man must be for the United States or against it. There can be no neutrals in this war; only patriots and traitors.Stephen Douglas

You should have “shut up”. Because while you and the rest of the pilots with whom you work, remained on your hands and knees taking it up the a$$ like the at will pus$es that you are, the pilots at Flight Options fought for a contract. Unlike you they fought for our profession. Our efforts were repeatedly thwarted by the same freeloaders that you now defend. These individuals variously undermined our collective efforts by letting our management know they would scab if called upon to do so. And in spite of the fact that they sold their souls, we have tried to forgive and have offered them a chance to make it right through the payment plan. Even so they have given us the finger. So now we are done with them.

Respect? I have none for these individuals. I have nothing but contempt. Strong arming? This implies we are trying to affect their behavior. Understand something: We don’t care what they do, say, or believe. We loath them. We don’t want to breathe the same air as they do. We don’t wish to be seen with them. We don’t care about them, because they’ve demonstrated their single minded, self-centered ambivalence and hatred toward us.

 

[shanes123]

Thats the Problem the 1108 is making it all about money..They have the Us or them attitude and thats what pisses people off. Slinghoff can play hard ball with the pilots but not with management..Thats why your contract sucks..I do agree that everyone should try to become Migs just so thay can vote him out and get someone in there that can stand up FOR the Pilots not at the pilots..

 

[dime line]

Thats the Problem the 1108 is making it all about money..They have the Us or them attitude and thats what pisses people off. Slinghoff can play hard ball with the pilots but not with management..Thats why your contract sucks..I do agree that everyone should try to become Migs just so thay can vote him out and get someone in there that can stand up FOR the Pilots not at the pilots..

And where were you all this time?

 

[BE40Driver]

Migs

I bet there are more migs out on furlough that don't pay dues than are flying the line. That is why they want to put targets on them.

 

[Praetorian]

I bet there are more migs out on furlough that don't pay dues than are flying the line. That is why they want to put targets on them.

Ok, you lost me there. Please elaborate.

 

[BE40Driver]

There is the same amount of pilots out on furlough now as pilots flying the line. If you were a migs when you were furloughed you are still a migs but not paying any dues. Everyone is now paying that flys the line. Put a target on the flying pilot for precontract dues not paid to have recalls. 1108 leadership playing hardball with pilots but soft with Management.

 

[Praetorian]

There is the same amount of pilots out on furlough now as pilots flying the line. If you were a migs when you were furloughed you are still a migs but not paying any dues. Everyone is now paying that flys the line. Put a target on the flying pilot for precontract dues not paid to have recalls. 1108 leadership playing hardball with pilots but soft with Management.

Ok, I understand your theory. Here's the problem with it. No active pilot is going to get fired over this, because every active pilot is currently paying either dues or the agency fee. And active pilots have a legal right not to join the union.

As for the union not playing hardball with management, what else would like them to do? From what I hear they have four or five grievances going to arbitration right now. I think they are adequately doing their job, which is enforcing the contract.

Now if you’re suggesting that they didn't do a good job of negotiating the CBA to begin with, that's laughable. With an average 40% wage increase over the life of a contract that was negotiated during the worst economy in 80 years? Come on.

I would also remind you that the union's ability to negotiate that contract was affected by the same freeloaders you seem to be defending here. So if you don't like the contract and you wanna blame someone, blame them.

 

[1folinepilot]

Ok, I understand your theory. Here's the problem with it. No active pilot is going to get fired over this, because every active pilot is currently paying either dues or the agency fee. And active pilots have a legal right not to join the union.

As for the union not playing hardball with management, what else would like them to do? From what I hear they have four or five grievances going to arbitration right now. I think they are adequately doing their job, which is enforcing the contract.

Now if you’re suggesting that they didn't do a good job of negotiating the CBA to begin with, that's laughable. With an average 40% wage increase over the life of a contract that was negotiated during the worst economy in 80 years? Come on.

I would also remind you that the union's ability to negotiate that contract was affected by the same freeloaders you seem to be defending here. So if you don't like the contract and you wanna blame someone, blame them.

Pratorian, Thanks for the good laugh! Coming from the man who boasts that he is here to do as little work as possible your statement "Adequately doing their job" is amusing. We truly enjoy your self gratification. It is nice that you have a couple grievances on a few issues that might affect a couple of pilots, but how about doing something about the inadequate staffing levels that affect all of the pilots and the owners of the company? Are you too busy stuffing your face with 300$ lobsters to realize that we are understaffed out here on the line? Your boast on the 40% wage increase is also laughable as many received nothing extra in their Jan pay check and will only see a wage increase that almost keeps up with the cost of living at best. The 40% increase is in the amount of flying they have to do to earn their wages under the new contract!

 

[dime line]

Pratorian, Thanks for the good laugh! Coming from the man who boasts that he is here to do as little work as possible your statement "Adequately doing their job" is amusing. We truly enjoy your self gratification. It is nice that you have a couple grievances on a few issues that might affect a couple of pilots,

but how about doing something about the inadequate staffing levels that affect all of the pilots and the owners of the company

?

Are you too busy stuffing your face with 300$ lobsters to realize that we are understaffed out here on the line

? Your boast on the 40% wage increase is also laughable as many received nothing extra in their Jan pay check and will only see a wage increase that almost keeps up with the cost of living at best. The 40% increase is in the amount of flying they have to do to earn their wages under the new contract!

Prat, the union has ZERO say in the staffing levels that the company establishes at FO. And your statement about 300$ Lobsters, you should go and get one they are great, oh and go ahead and bill that one to the company....thanks to the union and ricci......ricci offered and the union put it in the contract.

Wh

 

[Praetorian]

Pratorian, Thanks for the good laugh! Coming from the man who boasts that he is here to do as little work as possible your statement "Adequately doing their job" is amusing. We truly enjoy your self gratification. It is nice that you have a couple grievances on a few issues that might affect a couple of pilots, but how about doing something about the inadequate staffing levels that affect all of the pilots and the owners of the company? Are you too busy stuffing your face with 300$ lobsters to realize that we are understaffed out here on the line? Your boast on the 40% wage increase is also laughable as many received nothing extra in their Jan pay check and will only see a wage increase that almost keeps up with the cost of living at best. The 40% increase is in the amount of flying they have to do to earn their wages under the new contract!

So I’m a self aggrandizing, lobster eating, lazy person? I don’t know who you think I am, but that must be some good s**t dude.

To address your one coherent remark, from what I’ve read the grievances that have been filed are class action grievances that address training issues that affect all pilots on the property, not just “a couple” as you stated.

 

[1folinepilot]

So I’m a self aggrandizing, lobster eating, lazy person? I don’t know who you think I am, but that must be some good s**t dude.

To address your one coherent remark, from what I’ve read the grievances that have been filed are class action grievances that address training issues that affect all pilots on the property, not just “a couple” as you stated.

It is good to see that you are filing grievences for a couple of loop holes in the contract that could potentially affect every pilot once a year,but let me ask you this, How many pilots have actually been affected in reality with a loss of rest on day 1 or loss of overtime on day 8? How much money is being spent fighting this issue that might affect a couple of pilots once a year? What is being done about a pilot recall to correct the inadequate staffing levels that directly affect every pilot every day of the year?

It is good that you are fighting for the rest and overtime for training, but how about putting some energy towards getting a few pilots recalled? I bet you would have more MIG's and supporters if you fought for a recall instead of just sitting on your soapbox pointing fingers and blaming everybody else for your shortfalls.

 

[dime line]

It is good to see that you are filing grievences for a couple of loop holes in the contract that could potentially affect every pilot once a year,but let me ask you this, How many pilots have actually been affected in reality with a loss of rest on day 1 or loss of overtime on day 8? How much money is being spent fighting this issue that might affect a couple of pilots once a year?

What is being done about a pilot recall to correct the inadequate staffing levels that directly affect every pilot every day of the year?

It is good that you are fighting for the rest and overtime for training,

but how about putting some energy towards getting a few pilots recalled? I

bet you would have more MIG's and supporters if you fought for a recall instead of just sitting on your soapbox pointing fingers and blaming everybody else for your shortfalls.

AGAIN the union has zero power to tell the company when and how many pilots they have to staff.

And where were you while negotiations were going on,......oh you were riding on the coattails of other pilots while sitting on your soapbox.

 

[1folinepilot]

AGAIN the union has zero power to tell the company when and how many pilots they have to staff.

And where were you while negotiations were going on,......oh you were riding on the coattails of other pilots while sitting on your soapbox.

The company has a contractual obligation with the Union for staffing levels and the Union has an obligation to it's members to verify and enforce that obligation through audits of the company books. Or are you saying that the Union should just take the company's word on the staffing levels. Is the Union just going to take the company's word on the bonus too?

On your second question, I was right in line with everybody else flying the line and following the Union's direction. Where were you? Were you out being a hell bent radical, giving the rest of us a bad name and running off owners? Its a toss up who ran off more owners, Sh!tfinger or you and your radical buddies.

 

[dime line]

The company has a contractual obligation with the Union for staffing levels

and the Union has an obligation to it's members to verify and enforce that obligation through audits of the company books. Or are you saying that the Union should just take the company's word on the staffing levels. Is the Union just going to take the company's word on the bonus too?

On your second question, I was right in line with everybody else flying the line and following the Union's direction. Where were you? Were you out being a hell bent radical, giving the rest of us a bad name and running off owners? Its a toss up who ran off more owners, Sh!tfinger or you and your radical buddies.

Please quote the contract where it said the company has to have "X" number of pilots on payroll at any given time?
I havent seen that one, but could be wrong.

Oh and your last comment, I never broke the plane to write it up. So you can go f.. your self, for that comment. The plane was written up when it was found. So if you did anything else, thats not "following the Union Direction" , which makes you part of the "Hell Bent Radical" side of the problem you talk about.