FLOPS Phenom overrun

[ksu_aviator]

Just throwing some numbers out there.

Opera (official perf data for the 300) for a wet runway at 17C and 900 MSL says at

16,000 lbs - 4847 feet required
13,000 lbs - 4209 feet required

If you cross the threshold at 10 kts over ref, the new numbers are:

16,000 lbs - 5499 feet required
13,000 lbs - 4810 feet required

I doubt they landed near 16,000 lbs, but you can see that even at low weights, a little extra speed means you have to nail the TDZ or you will go off the end. If they were "high and fast", there's no doubt that they got the outcome that the charts predicted.

 

[GooseHZ]

Never would have thought of that.....Thanks Mr.Obvious.

 

[rajflyboy]

We sure are getting a lot of different answers for what s considered stabilized

How can that be?

 

[rajflyboy]

And what if the winds are gusting to 40 knots?

Then what is considered stabilized?

 

[Jetz]

We sure are getting a lot of different answers for what s considered stabilized

How can that be?

Hey, Rajfly - idea for you. Take a guess at what you think is a stabilized approach. Maybe crack open that company standards book of yours to see what they say. Begin the conversation and we'll pipe in with our ideas.

Hint: 200 knots on short final AINT a stabilized approach. (AKA a normal Southwest Airlines approach - Pre-Burbank that is.)

 

[t-bone]

We sure are getting a lot of different answers for what s considered stabilized

How can that be?

Really? The few comments that have actually addressed the definition have all said the same thing. But of course each company may define it slightly differently, and that's their prerogative.

I flew into FCM today...FBO said they did land on 10R (the longer runway) and that it had recently stopped raining.

 

[Rupert.]

Just throwing some numbers out there.

Opera (official perf data for the 300) for a wet runway at 17C and 900 MSL says at

16,000 lbs - 4847 feet required
13,000 lbs - 4209 feet required

If you cross the threshold at 10 kts over ref, the new numbers are:

16,000 lbs - 5499 feet required
13,000 lbs - 4810 feet required

I doubt they landed near 16,000 lbs, but you can see that even at low weights, a little extra speed means you have to nail the TDZ or you will go off the end. If they were "high and fast", there's no doubt that they got the outcome that the charts predicted.

Those are factored numbers. Unfactored wet would be around 2900 feet required. They had to have been way faster than 10 kts too fast.

 

[X-rated]

And what if the winds are gusting to 40 knots?

Then what is considered stabilized?

As my post said, circumstances beyond the norm require a special briefing. In your example, both pilots should damn well have talked about and considered what a adding 20Kts to REF will do to the landing performance and agree on hard and fast rules to mitigate the risk. If your not adhering to predefined maximum stabilized approach criteria I would never want to fly with you let alone put a family member in your plane. Good luck Cowboy! Stop trying to stir the pot. If you're really not doing this, (which I find suspect) take a clue from every other pilot on here and learn something.

I've reread every post. Everyone is pretty much saying the exact same thing. You're scaring me!

 

[rajflyboy]

X rated

Answer thy question?

So you are saying you will fly an approach at ref or ref plus 10 in winds gusting to 40 knots?

Where is that in the Afm? I'd like to see that.

 

[X-rated]

X rated

Answer thy question?

So you are saying you will fly an approach at ref or ref plus 10 in winds gusting to 40 knots?

Where is that in the Afm? I'd like to see that.

I'm pretty sure I did answer your question. If it was necessary to add 20 kts to Ref, I would first discuss it with the other pilot to make sure we were both ok doing so and then agree on hard and fast rules to mitigate the risk. After we have agreed on what we are going to do, that would become the new stabilized approach criteria for that approach only.

I think you're not grasping the concept of stable approach. It's putting the airplane in predefined window of flight perimeters and not accepting being outside those parameters after the fact. You may adjust those parameters if the situation dictates, but that is something that needs to be briefed ahead of time and not reacted to when you get behind the airplane.

 

[208starcheck]

X rated

Answer thy question?

So you are saying you will fly an approach at ref or ref plus 10 in winds gusting to 40 knots?

Where is that in the Afm? I'd like to see that.

That's a retarded question. Winds 0 gusting to 40 or 25 G40. Let's add half the gust on 25 G40. You're still slower across the ground then winds 0. You can't keep asking a stupid question without painting a full picture. What are all the conditions.

 

[X-rated]

.....

 

[rajflyboy]

That's a retarded question. Winds 0 gusting to 40 or 25 G40. Let's add half the gust on 25 G40. You're still slower across the ground then winds 0. You can't keep asking a stupid question without painting a full picture. What are all the conditions.

I like this type of thinking. Ground speed with a headwind is slower. That's the type if answer I'm looking for.

I always add half the gust factor to my approach speed.

 

[gc3059]

Target airspeed plus or minus 10 kts, not ref and ten, at least that is what it is at my company. Then you can account for the gust factor and still fit the stabilized approach criteria.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Those are factored numbers. Unfactored wet would be around 2900 feet required. They had to have been way faster than 10 kts too fast.

I don't believe so. I got them from Opera using wet runway. I don't believe Opera gives you factored numbers.

*edit*

I just double checked my numbers and settings in Opera and the same information keeps coming up. The wet, unfactored landing distances I posted above appear to be accurate.

Now, there is a SAFO that says if you don't have wet runway numbers from the manufacturer, you can use 15% on top of the 15% you are already adding...so a 2,194 dry unfactored would become 2,904 feet. But I've fiddled with Opera trying to get 2900 for a wet runway and just can't. Opera is telling me the unfactored landing distance at 13000 lbs is 4200 feet. I'll check the Tab Data later today, maybe the Tab Data is different?

 

[X-rated]

I like this type of thinking. Ground speed with a headwind is slower. That's the type if answer I'm looking for.

I always add half the gust factor to my approach speed.

Headwind component is taken into account when you come up with your landing distance! And, most people don't count gusts as a headwind that will reduce your ground speed at touch down. You have no way of knowing if that gust will be there or not when you cross the fence. You should consider your required landing distance may be significantly increased when you add for the gusts.

Adding half the gust factor is a normal procedure, but as one of the other posters said, if the winds are 25 gusting to 40, your gust factor is 7.5 kts not 20...

 

[gunfyter]

I always fly ref and 20 whenever windshear is possible... and I consider it possible if ever the gusts are more than 5 kts.

Citation X material we had is where I got the ref and 20 for windshear ... Not sure if it was company or Cessna source

 

[X-rated]

I don't ever remember seeing that in the C-X material, but it's been a while, and I have pretty much mentally dumped all that info. I don't have a problem adding 20 to ref if you're worried about windshear so long as you have plenty of runway to work with. Would you really add 20 kts going into SMO because the ATIS is calling for 5 kt gusts? I wouldn't.

 

[rajflyboy]

Some airplanes say to add the entire gust factor not to exceed 20 knots

Also ref plus 20 is flying within ATP standards

Ref plus 10 is the target on a normal runway. You get plus or minus 10

Most sop's allow for ref to ref plus 20 for a stabilized approach. Anything more is a go around.

Also when do you apply braking? You take a huge penalty for every second you do not start braking

Many factors go into flying a stabilized approach. Skill and smarts is also a big part of it.

 

[gunfyter]

I wouldn't cross the fence at that speed. You'd have to blend short field consideration in At some point you have to transition to ref