FLOPS/NETJETS:The REAL Rumor Possibilty vs Scare Tactics

[Voice Of Reason]

I find it amusing that all of these rumors are flying around that Net Jets is supposedly going to buy FLOPS. ....AND YET.... the NetJets guys are seemingly "so concerned" that the Flops pilots unionize. Hmmm.... If THAT rumor were to be possible you'd think that it would be just the opposite.

Consider this... A few years ago when RTA existed as a separate entity (and a union ALMOST a done deal (so they say)...it would have been thought UNFATHOMABLE that "little" Flight Options would be the one taking over.... YET IT HAPPENED.

Then, after the dust had settled and any unionizing back to square one, Big Raytheon is back at the helm, recently taking over more than 90 percent ownership. (Ever hear of them?... HUGE company, unlimited government contracts, etc).

Back at NetJets, the powers that be suddenly decide to "give in to union demands" (after several years), giving much more than they likely intend to pay in all actuality...HOW, you say?

Well, in case you've missed it, fractional ownership has come into light as being not the big profitable deal it was originally thought to be. SO, if not (see article "Fact or Fraction" via google)... Then the allegedly "New" plane fractionals would be the ones headed for the biggest dive as they charge the most...for planes that, in all reality aren't all that much newer (OH YEAH...and what company MAKES a lot of these planes???...RAYTHEON).

Now, knowing this latest downward trend in fractional providers, and having a HUGE interest in its profit and survival...MAYBE Momma Raytheon sees an opportunity... BUY NETJETS (not the other way around)...operate under the premise of Flops plan... (*EXCEPT* bring in management that is not incompetent, and run it efficiently)...and guess what...Uncle Warren walks away fat & happy...and no more profit down the drain (which would be moreso with the union contract)... OR**** Maybe Uncle Warren is in "silent partner cahoots" with Raytheon to share in this venture without the headache of the union. (It HAS been done, as you see).

So now, not only will Raytheon be MAKING the planes, but they can (plan) to run a lower cost plan which will result in higher profits for them...with no middle man between the assmebly line and accounts receivable for the fractional contracts.

Where does that leave the NetJets contract? Why, stapled to the bottom, of course! ...JUST like they'd plan to do with FLOPS...except THIS scenario seems the most likely to me, as NetJets would CERTAINLY not approve such a contract, intending to bring on an additional pilot force as large as Flops to add to the burden.

Not likely? Neither was Flops "taking over" RTA...Welcome to big corporate and the art of the union bust. DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER...

Just think about THIS: WHY do NetJets pilots have SUCH a big interest in spending their free time "helping" FLOPS pilots? WHY is the FLOPS IBT board completely under the NetJets IBT umbrella (so they know what's going on at every second)....

Tell me. WHY the sudden caring about FLOPS pilots? Hmmmm...

addendum: The preceding speculation, while highly likely, is...like other garbage posted, just speculation...yet a distinct possibility...think for YOURSELF, weigh BOTH possibilties...yet KNOW that there are games being played on BOTH sides, so decide READING ALL possibilities

(...OH, I know...so and so TALKED to so and so big cheese and so and so rumor is a "done deal"...aren't they ALL)

 

[Frac Rat]

Congratulations

That post actually has some merit. Having been around for the FLOPS/RTA merger mess, I can vouch for the fact that the impossible CAN happen. Kinda far fetched though.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

That post actually has some merit. Having been around for the FLOPS/RTA merger mess, I can vouch for the fact that the impossible CAN happen. Kinda far fetched though.

I KNOW Frac Rat...that's what I thought about the deal with RTA...MY Gahd! They day that announcement came out someone told me on the ramp, and I thought someone was playing a very huge practical joke... That's how these big greedy companies operate, though...in THEIR best interests. Sick, but true.

Why do you think not only NetJets pilots, but IBT in general is so concerned about getting Flops pilots "asap"? Good grief, they've been saying they're "almost there" with the Flops cards for so long now...If things were really so last ditch for Flops pilots to go the IBT route, wouldn't they be THERE long ago? Flops sucks, TOTALLY...but IBT sucks too... (oh yes..."the big contract", lol...we'll see how long that applies)

I think most people just intend to stick it out until that next best thing comes along. That's just human nature, take it or leave it...

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

Well let's see... Flops buys NETJETS, guess what they buy the UNION contract also.... Its binding!

Flops pilots and NJA pilots merger.... RLA rules, etc... NJA pilots are protected by law in the merger-FLOPS pilots? O well....

FLOPS pilots joining a UNION is there business!!! They are doing it to better their lot.. Doesn't help us one bit.. Good luck to them, they need it..

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

The UNION- is you and what you make it...

Good or bad.......

 

[hawkercpt]

Dude...pass the doobie.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Well let's see... Flops buys NETJETS, guess what they buy the UNION contract also.... Its binding!

...Keep telling yourself that...

BTW.... I didn't know TAs were "binding" :nuts: lol

These guys have WAYYYYYYY better lawyers than IBT could ever afford...trust me, ideology rarely wins in the court of big business....

 

[Guitar Guy]

Interesting conjecture. I guess we'll know in about 2 weeks... or maybe not.

Stay tuned.

 

[Cavpilot]

Ummmm... O.K. let me see now.

The basis of your theory is that strange things happen in business, so Flops is going to buy NetJets. Pretty weak.

Furthermore, you postulate that the company (Raytheon) that was so anxious to to get out of the fractional market that they practically gave it to KR for free, then repoed it back when he defaulted, THEN just recently had to dump a load of cash into it to keep it going is going to purchase NetJets! I suppose Flyi is about to buy Jetblue as well.

BTW, your knowledge of labor contracts is poor. I recommend that you educate yourself on the subject before posting.

 

[gunfyter]

Where does that leave the NetJets contract? Why, stapled to the bottom, of course! ...JUST like they'd plan to do with FLOPS...except THIS scenario seems the most likely to me, as NetJets would CERTAINLY not approve such a contract, intending to bring on an additional pilot force as large as Flops to add to the burden.
)

Dude... Can you spell DESPERATE?

First of all there is no intent to staple anyone to the bottom. The TA says in the event of mergers everybody keeps their seat. A fence system gets implemented.

But good job trying to instill fear into everybody. I do not think your fellow pilots at FLOPS will fall for your BS.

Why am I interested in helping FLOPS pilots unionize? Cause I want to screw you guys... Oh yeah Right.

You are not the voice of reason. You are the voice of paranoid insanity. UN -Informed paranoid insanity I might add.

 

[been-there]

giving much more than they likely intend to pay

They got off cheap. Pilots in the fractional industry are making pennies on the dollar.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

the usual tools

Dude... Can you spell DESPERATE?

First of all there is no intent to staple anyone to the bottom. The TA says in the event of mergers everybody keeps their seat. A fence system gets implemented.

But good job trying to instill fear into everybody. I do not think your fellow pilots at FLOPS will fall for your BS.

Fear??? Nice PROJECTION yet again...
Here's some FEAR for you... Read what "gunfyter" says above, then go to the public section of IBT1108 where they have the TA in its entirety (if it is still there).

"everybody keeps their seat" my gluteals! You forgot to add "IF BOTH ARE IBT".

Who is trying to scare WHO into what? You're all so transparent its sickening. I'm just calling what I see, I couldn't care less if a union comes or NOT...but don't try to silence me when I out that you are only telling HALF of the story.

 

[Tommy Boy]

Whoever buys whoever doesn't really matter. What is a fact is that the fractional companies pay and treat their pilots like dirt. We are the regionals of the corporate world. So the more guys we can get to join together under the same umbrella of protection, the better for us. Imagine if we had flexjet and citationshares as well. We would be a pretty strong force to reckon with. And we know we won't get rich, but we aren't asking too. Just to be treated and paid like we deserve.

And raytheon didn't give us more cash, they basically bought out most of the other remaining investors. So now they own like 97.6% of us.....but we still are not a "raytheon" company so all the old rta guys still lose their retirement. That is an example of the kind of reasons we need to join with the other fractional pilots in looking out for our own skin.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

thou protesteth too much

Ever hear the old cliche "the truth hurts"?

Why else the rage that stems from my speculation vs the speculation certain others feel you MUST believe?

If I am wrong, so be it... but consider WHY it would make someone rage so, if it didn't hit home?
(re:SafetytheSeat, gunfyter, cavpilot)

 

[gunfyter]

Yes read it. Section 1.10.C


I am sure Voice can show you where it says pilots get stapled. He must have X-ray vision.

1.10(c)i
"There will be no flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority integration."


​

Poor desperate, desperate man....

I don't know your payscales... but from what I understand .. everybody would Get A Raise, Have more vacation, work a better schedule...

Sure sounds like it would suck being a Teamster... hmmmm

 

[DO-82 driver]

Hey Voice....thanks for the laughs....just had about 40 or so pilots follow your post during Company recurrent.....It almost sounds like you used to be on the Company negotiation team here in CMH.

Keep'em coming...

 

[Bored so Here]

operate under the premise of Flops plan... (*EXCEPT* bring in management that is not incompetent, and run it efficiently)...and guess what...Uncle Warren walks away fat & happy...and no more profit down the drain

This competent, efficient management would be who? Netjets "management?" Sorry dude, but you just lost credibility as a "voice of reason" there.

As a personal rule of thumb, I usually keep my mouth shut if I don't know what I'm talking about. It's embarrasing...

 

[Voice Of Reason]

This competent, efficient management would be who? Netjets "management?" Sorry dude, but you just lost credibility as a "voice of reason" there.
As a personal rule of thumb, I usually keep my mouth shut if I don't know what I'm talking about. It's embarrasing...

You're right...you should 'usually keep (your) mouth shut if (you) don't know what you are talking about'...Who said anything about NETJETS mgt??? Surely not me... Put down the pipe

 

[Diesel]

Wow man you have derailed.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Here You Go

Yes read it. Section 1.10.C




I am sure Voice can show you where it says pilots get stapled. He must have X-ray vision.

1.10(c)i
"There will be no flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority integration."




​

------------------------------------------------
How about p 14?...you know, gunfyter, the same part, yet directly prior to the tiny tidbit you chose to cut and paste....You didn't think us blind, did you?: http://www.ibt1108.org/3FINAL%20JBD%2010-13-05.pdf

1.10(c)(i)​

If pilots of the acquired carrier are hired by the Company, the seniority lists of
the respective pilot groups shall be integrated pursuant to Teamsters Merger Policy if
both groups are represented by the IBT, or if the pilots of the acquired airline are not
represented by the IBT, then pursuant to a method *to be determined by the Union*.
Seniority integration procedures shall be promptly initiated following announcement of
an operational merger affecting the seniority of the pilot groups. The Company or other
Successor, as appropriate, shall accept the integrated seniority list. There will be no
system flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority list
integration. (ed: Meaning the pilots covered by this agreement:IBT, see underlined/bold section...of course, this is assuming NetJets would be the buyer, lol)



​

​

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Hmmmm

Hey Voice....thanks for the laughs....just had about 40 or so pilots follow your post during Company recurrent.......

I wonder why such an "imaginative" poster such as my self would be the object of such intense interest? One might think such things wouldn't affect you at all, should they be so implausible..... :nuts:

BTW...When did NetJets start running recurrent for:

DO-82 driver
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 127
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Total Time: 200+

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Mildly Interesting tidbit

Probably nothing, but it seems NetJets is having some Raytheon-like interests these days....

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20051104005070&newsLang=en

November 04, 2005 08:30 AM US Eastern Timezone

XVionics Closes $3 Million Series B of Funding; SCP Partners Leads Round to Fuel Rapid Growth

WASHINGTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 4, 2005--XVionics, a global provider of combat-proven aviation command and control software solutions, today announced that it has closed a $3 million Series B round of funding, led by SCP Partners of Wayne, PA. This round of funding, combined with an initial round which included CSP Partners of Boston, MA, brings XVionics' total equity investment to date to more than $11 million.


"Real-time command and control solutions are essential to managing the chaotic environments of military and civilian aviation operations," said Yaron Eitan, director and general partner of SCP Partners. "XVionics has a unique and differentiated technology solution and highly profitable business model that will allow it to be a leader in its space. We are excited to extend our support for the company."
XVionics will use the latest round of financing to fuel expansion into new markets. The company's flagship product, the XVionics Operational System Management (XV-OMS), is a scalable, real-time decision support system designed specifically to meet the needs of aviation operations around the globe. XVionics recently released version 3.0 of the XV-OMS. The new version is architected using flexible XML technology on the Microsoft(R) .NET platform. The .NET platform enables the XV-OMS to easily integrate with existing hardware and software infrastructure, maximizing existing software investment.
"This second round of funding will help propel XVionics ahead of its competitors in the Command and Control software sector. The interest and dedication of a respected firm such as SCP Partners validates our strategy and growing leadership position in the military aviation market," said Gene Colabatistto, CEO of XVionics.
Existing members of XVionics' board include Chairman General Alexander M. Haig, Jr. of Worldwide Associates; and Directors Bill Boisture, President, Net Jets, Inc; John Fletcher, CEO of Fletcher-Spaght, Inc.; and Brad Meslin, Managing Director of CSP Associates.
About XVionics
XVionics is the only global technology company with extensive experience in providing end-to-end software solutions for complex resource management in intense military aviation environments. The company has leveraged its technology and the unparalleled expertise of wing and squadron commanders running combat and peace time sorties, to develop the XV-OMS, a field-proven command and control software solution that helps squadrons actively manage all air, ground and personnel resources. The XV-OMS dramatically improves the efficiency, cost savings and safety of air force squadrons around the world. Air Forces around the world look to XVionics to help them master the networked battlefield.
About SCP Partners
SCP Private Equity Partners ("SCP") is a diversified private equity investment firm with over $800 million under management that invests in mid and later stage companies in high growth industries, with an emphasis on technology. SCP generally invests in companies with commercially proven technologies that need capital to implement and market their business concepts. In addition to its primary emphases on security technologies, educational technologies and medical devices, SCP targets the information technology, internet infrastructure, financial services and wireless communications sectors. Among others, its portfolio includes investments in peer-to-peer technologies, IT services, streaming media, content management, e- learning, and application integration. While its investments are primarily within the US, it will consider a limited number of investments in foreign countries.
SCP maintains close and continuing relationships with the management of its portfolio companies, involving not merely participation on the boards of its companies, but also supporting management through critical analysis of business plans and initiatives, the identification and consummation of strategic alliances, and proactive help with business development. SCP supports its investment portfolio with a rich base of strategic, operating and financial expertise and an extensive networking capacity to access capital, recruit management and facilitate favorable strategic alliances.
SCP is based in suburban Wayne, Pennsylvania, but maintains offices as well in New Jersey, New York and Washington, DC.

 

[Guitar Guy]

VOR - why is it surprising to you that Bill Boisture is a board member at XVionics? It's not uncommon for a senior manager at one company to be on the board of directors at a different company.

If Boisture's presence at XVionics raises red flags for you, how about one of the other board members there - Gen. Al Haig? Oh my goodness...must automatically mean something devious that a retired senior military officer sits on the board of a company that specializes in combat-related software. Better call the GAO or DOJ.

 

[gunfyter]

------------------------------------------------
How about p 14?...you know, gunfyter, the same part, yet directly prior to the tiny tidbit you chose to cut and paste....You didn't think us blind, did you?: http://www.ibt1108.org/3FINAL%20JBD%2010-13-05.pdf

1.10(c)(i)​

If pilots of the acquired carrier are hired by the Company, the seniority lists of
the respective pilot groups shall be integrated pursuant to Teamsters Merger Policy if
both groups are represented by the IBT, or if the pilots of the acquired airline are not
represented by the IBT, then pursuant to a method *to be determined by the Union*.
Seniority integration procedures shall be promptly initiated following announcement of
an operational merger affecting the seniority of the pilot groups. The Company or other
Successor, as appropriate, shall accept the integrated seniority list. There will be no
system flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority list
integration. (ed: Meaning the pilots covered by this agreement:IBT, see underlined/bold section...of course, this is assuming NetJets would be the buyer, lol)

​

​

​

​

What's the problem. If both groups are IBT... then there is a predetermined method to Seniority Integration. If not then the integration has to be NEGOTIATED between the groups and determined by the union. Just means that the company does not determine.

Read the rest of the section that says that integration is negotiated between the current pilot group and representatives of the incoming pilot group, IF they can't agree -- It goes to an arbitration. What could possibly be more fair than that?

I am not going to quote all this for you.

In any case THERE IS NO STAPLER and everybody keeps their seats.

Except VOICE. We may have to find a seat with restraining devices... to prevent going off the edge.

Show me the Stapler... its not there.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

uh-duh

[/left]
[/indent]What's the problem. If both groups are IBT... then there is a predetermined method to Seniority Integration. If not then the integration has to be NEGOTIATED between the groups and determined by the union. Just means that the company does not determine.

Read the rest of the section that says that integration is negotiated between the current pilot group and representatives of the incoming pilot group,

I am not going to quote all this for you.

In any case THERE IS NO STAPLE and everybody keeps their seats.

:uzi: HELLLOOOOOOOOOOO.....????!??!??!??!???!
***IF BOTH ARE IBT*** :smash: It all goes back to THAT statement
Thanks for MAKING my point, THEN claiming there's no "staple". Anyone who can read can see that, no matter HOW FAR they read... It STILL goes back to that statement no matter how you attempt to sugarcoat it and avoid the applicable parts in your posts...uke:

 

[Voice Of Reason]

The Fact that won't disappear

------------------------------------------------
How about p 14?...you know, gunfyter, the same part, yet directly prior to the tiny tidbit you chose to cut and paste....You didn't think us blind, did you?: http://www.ibt1108.org/3FINAL%20JBD%2010-13-05.pdf

:uzi: 1.10(c)(i)

If pilots of the acquired carrier are hired by the Company, the seniority lists of
the respective pilot groups shall be integrated pursuant to Teamsters Merger Policy uke: *if
both* groups are represented by the IBT, or if the pilots of the acquired airline are not
represented by the IBT, then pursuant to a method *to be determined by the Union*. :bomb:
Seniority integration procedures shall be promptly initiated following announcement of
an operational merger affecting the seniority of the pilot groups. The Company or other
Successor, as appropriate, shall accept the integrated seniority list. There will be no
system flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority list
integration. (ed: Meaning the pilots covered by this agreement:IBT, see underlined/bold section...of course, this is assuming NetJets would be the buyer, lol):smash:

​

​

Attempts to hide these facts in a slew of trash talk will fail miserably. Read for yourself, people! :bomb:

 

[gunfyter]

No you are wrong...

"There will be no flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority integration."


​

applies whether the new group is IBT or NOT IBT.


The only difference between integration of another IBT group, and a non IBT group is

the method of integration will have to be determined by the Union... negotiations will occur and if no agreement can be reached -- arbitration.

Yes people -- read for yourself!

However if you agree with VOICE, then you would have to conclude it will be much better to be already a TEAMSTER than to wait...

So I do not understand how his argument helps his position against joining the Union. His argument seems to indicate you should HURRY UP and get in the union before you get screwed....

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Well THAT's sure different

No you are wrong...

"There will be no flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority integration."


​

applies whether the new group is IBT or NOT IBT.


The only difference between integration of another IBT group, and a non IBT group is

the method of integration will have to be determined by the Union... negotiations will occur and if no agreement can be reached -- arbitration.

IS THIS THING ON???? HELLO? Do you seriously think FLOPS pilots have the reading ability of a trucker?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

So I do not understand how his argument helps his position against joining the Union. His argument seems to indicate you should HURRY UP and get in the union before you get screwed....

I could less than give two poops about whether there is or isn't going to be a union at FLOPS. It sure is taking FOREVER to find out, though, for such a "done deal". WHY do you people ALWAYS make it about getting a union for FLOPS? Obsessed much? My Gahd if we want one so bad, we'll get one...it really shouldn't bother you SOoooooo much (unless of course you are fearing the very scenario in my original post that started this thread)..Why ELSE such a fear of everything I say?????:angryfire <--(Gunfyter)

 

[gunfyter]

I am not fearing anything. It does not matter if we get sold or we buy or we merge. I am at the top of the seniority list here and I am not getting bumped. If we are bought you just bought a unionized pilot force and a CONTRACT.

Your rantings still do not explain why it will be better for FLOPS pilots not to unionize under IBT.

IF FLOPS and NJA merge it would seem that your arguments show you are better off to already be IBT... since you fear Integration will be determined BY THE UNION

But as I have pointed out, your fears are unfounded. The way the union will determine is by negotiation between groups and arbitration... as required by 1.10(c) ii, iii, and iv.

and once again

"There will be no flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority integration."



​

This applies to ALL pilots. Not bad reading comprehension for a trucker with a BS in Physics , eh?

Oh, and by the way, if we merge or get bought or buy you... when you start working under the NJAIBT CBA... and get a raise, more vacation, and better work rules... be sure to thank a Trucker... and speak real slow so we can understand you.