Flight School Info - Get off the fence

[jldv]

Let's kick up a little dirt here.

I don't know how many of these threads I have read where users reply to flight school/training inquiries with generic replies ranging from, 'depends on the instructor', to 'be wary of planes without propellers.'

Draw a line in the sand and take a stand, all of you experienced pilots out there. I've got 35 hours, approaching my checkride, and I'm making the leap to quit my job and go for it. I've done a lot of research and this, the message board, is one of the final steps.

1. FBO v. Flight School

Some have said that the pay for hours method is flawed. What have people's experience been on this? I've noticed there is no prevailing theory on this so the question is why or why not?

Does anyone have a friend who bought an old Piper, flew at his local FBO, and was hired by Southwest 3 three years later after spending $400?

What about a successful flight school story? Anyone?

What about a horror story? Guy spends 50k and is back at his FBO instructing.

2. Flight Schools

I've heard of:

• *Flight Safety
  *All ATP
  *Gulfstream
  *Mesa
  *ComAir
  *PanAm

Who's been where? Did it work how you planned? Was it more expensive? Did it take longer to get a job? Did they get you a job? An interview? Did you have to instruct when you were done?

Any and all reponses are greatly appreciated.

 

[bigD]

Really man, there's a reason why we're on the fence about this. There are too many variables and different ways people learn to have one complete, correct, answer. You might as well ask us to argue whether Mexican food is better than Italian.

For every good/bad experience I've heard about FBO training, I've heard another good/bad experience about the big guys. You've already done the majority of the work in researching and reading the various posts on the subject. My only other recommendation would be to visit a variety of smaller flight schools, and maybe take a trip and visit some of the bigger guys - then draw your own conclusion.

 

[jldv]

Thanks for the reply. I do appreciate it.

Its not a question of whether you like Mexican or Italian more, but why. That's what I'm interested in. I've already formulated my own ideas as to the trade-offs; I'm curious to know what other people have experienced compared to their expectations.

My guess is that paying 30k in 90 days to get all your ratings isn't as valuable, in an interview, as grinding it out at your local FBO.

Two guys with identical resumes, one went the FBO route, the other a flight school (fast track is what I'm referring to), my guess is that the guy who ground it out at his FBO demonstrates greater dedication than the guy who borrows the cash and three months later has his spoon fed flight time.

I'm leaning toward fast track, I'll be 30 this year, and my inclination is to get in, get the training, and get on with it. My fear is that this will be viewed as less valuable, less credible flight time.

And maybe flight time is flight time. No one cares how you got it.

I'm just interested in the debate, not the answer, I'll figure it out from there.

Thanks again.

 

[bobbysamd]

Au contraire

For one thing, you cannot be "spoon fed" flight training. Learning is an active process. In other words, you have to participate and not sit there. Flight instructors detest students who are not prepared for their training periods and who must be spoon fed. Those students end up paying more for their training than those who prepare and do their homework.

This is especially so at the so-called fast-track schools. You have to keep up or you will be left by the wayside. This is especially so at FlightSafety, one of the schools that you listed in your opening post. I know; I instructed there several years ago. Unless an FBO is operating an approved school, you are afforded more of a chance at an FBO to learn at your own pace. That has its pluses and minuses.

I happen to like schools. I instructed at a few, including FSI and Mesa, two of the schools you mentioned. I wish that I went to a school instead of the way I trained. I believe that you learn more, better, and faster in a structured program. I feel that name recognition of a school can facilitate your career. A school would be my recommendation, but that doesn't mean that you cannot attain your goals by taking training from some other source. Plenty of people have and plenty of people will.

The flight time logged at a school is regarded strictly as training time. Everyone has to train. The type and quality of flight time you build after training through employment is what carries the weight.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[bigD]

Really, I think when it comes down to interviews - it doesn't matter.

I personally am taking the Part 61 route. Not because I think I'll be better trained, or because I think it'll make me more employable down the line - it just fits better with my schedule, and it gives me more flexability to do things at my own pace. With my work and school schedule, Part 61 makes the most sense for my particular situation.

Now since you feel that time is of the essence, going to a more structured program might be a good decision. I certainly don't think it'll affect your employability (I say this in regard to programs where you don't pay to play F/O - that's a different discussion).

 

[jldv]

Awesome!

This is the information I was looking for, specifically the comment regarding learning more in a structured program. Great feedback.

Thank you

 

[B190Captain]

I'd say that you should give Flight Safety a good look. I attended there in 93 and it was a great experience. You may have to cut your arm off to pay for it these days but it's definetly worth investigating.

 

[jldv]

Excellent, thank you.

Did you stay on to instruct? If not, why? If so, was it a decent place to instruct?

Again, thanks. I appreciate the specific comments.

 

[bobbysamd]

FlightSafety: An instructor's haven?

Did you stay on to instruct? If not, why? If so, was it a decent place to instruct?

Let me qualify my comments very specifically.

I instructed at FSI in the early '90s. The Chief Pilot and Center Manager have since moved on. The Chief Pilot especially set the tone for the place. I know the current Center Manager and he is a first-class person. I know who the current Chief Pilot is from a prior encounter.

Having said all that, I did not care for the place (Once again, this was the early '90s.). The Chief Pilot had no feel for people and treated every instructor like punks. Being over 40 at the time I was a punk no longer and didn't care for his treatment. We had a veteran of the place who had trained there and was a training leader for several foreign airline programs at the school. He was treated in a similar shoddy fashion. This gentleman was great with people and much more patient than me; he later became Chief Pilot and a DE.

Now, having written all that and knowing who runs the place now, I think it would a great opportunity for you to instruct at FSI. I know that instructors have been given a pay raise since I was there. Benies at FSI have always been good; health insurance and 401-K. Good opportunity to build actual instrument and multi time. Connections. A high-quality person who is heavily involved with flight instructors. Good facilities. All in all, an okay place to hang your hat for a while.

Once more, I recommend FSI as a good source of flight training. Especially for you, who is seeking an accelerated program.

Hope that helps a little more.

 

[tarp]

JLDV - some of your quotes:

"I've got 35 hours, approaching my checkride, and I'm making the leap to quit my job and go for it."

"bought an old Piper, flew at his local FBO, and was hired by Southwest 3 three years later after spending $400?"

"horror story? Guy spends 50k and is back at his FBO instructing"

------------

Go for it? Great. I'm not a naysayer but you do have to face reality. It's 2003, there are two airlines on the brink of bankruptcy and everyone is in a bunker mentality. My own rosey sky belief is that by 2008 everyone will have forgotten this downturn but that's 5 years away.

The factory/structured/intensity schools are going to take between $25K and $50K of your money to give you 250 hours in your logbook and Comm, IR, Multi, CFI, CFII and MEI ratings. You will be unemployed and away from home (possibly) for between 3 months and one year depending on how good a student you are.
Some of these programs have housing included and some don't.

You will have a very structured course of flying and ground school. You will have pretty good equipment in a fairly consistent fleet. You will have to bust your hump every day to stay with the "normal" (high-speed) program. If you fall behind or get stage check failures, it will cost you more money and time. Nothing, repeat nothing is guaranteed if you fall behind the course curriculum.

When you are done, you will have 250-300hrs in your logbook and all those ratings listed above. Now, our regional airline accepts folks from qualified 4-yr degree schools (read ERAU, UND, Webster, etc.) with a served internship and 600hrs TT. We also have inked a deal with one of these Airline Academies but it was our discretion and in times of need for classes. We will talk to "Instructors" from this academy that have 800-1,000hrs TT and have a recomendation from the school. Finally, for the man in the street, we will now consider 3000hrs TT to be competitive with at least 500multi and some turbine.

So with this in mind, your "commitment" to your choice of school may have to include the thought that after your very successful student relationship with the factory school, you may have to turn around and accept their offer to come back as an instructor and "build time".

So spending $50K and then having to instruct is not a horror story, it's normal -- you may not be instructing at a Mom and Pop FBO but you'll still be instructing.

At the FBO, you will not have consistent training or consistent equipment. There is a chance that you will meet a really nice and well-qualified instructor who is genuinely happy to have you as a customer or you could run into one of the thousands of CFI's "just building time". If you are lucky enough to find a good instructor, the experience will be wonderful and you will learn at your own pace. You can even live in your own home and possibly hold down a job while you are learning to fly. If you run into the "i don't care" type of FBO, it's just futility.

When you are done, you've probably spent/saved half the cost of the factory school (i.e. by not paying as much per flight hour AND keeping a day job). However, the time frame will be elongated by quite a bit. You will still get Comm, IR, Multi, CFI, CFII and MEI and you will still build about 250-300hrs. It won't be $400! In fact, you will still spend $25K-40K depending on the market you're in.

What you won't have with the local FBO is an invite to stay and teach at the school - it might happen if you are a nice guy that has made personal connections. You won't have any "tie-ins" with a regional carrier.

So "off the fence" -- do what your wallet/bank account can stand inside how good a student you are (really).

Your not going to a 4-year school - so take that out of the equation.

Are you going to go to an Academy (factory) school and be the best darn student in class? You are going to push through at the fast pace and you are going to make a mark on the staff so that you are one of the "excellent" students they invite back to be an instructor at the school. In this scenario, you will pay out about $50K, then accept poverty wages for about a year to 18 months waiting for your airline interview. However, you are pushing to make the goal.

Can't afford that or can't be that committed? Then Plan B.

 

[bobbysamd]

Dedication and commitment

Good comments, Tarp. I couldn't have written it better myself. Great food for thought.

 

[jldv]

This is what I'm looking for. Thank you, Tarp. I appreciate your feedback.

What is poverty, by the way? What are the wages for a new instructor? Corporate FO? Regional FO? Commercial FO?

I've done some research but honestly this career move is not about money, its about getting out of this office and enjoying life a little more.

Thanks again to everyone who has replied. This is extremely valuable information.

 

[northmountain]

comments re: FSI

I recently left FSI for a regional (and they cancelled my class date for an indefinite period of time).....but here are my comments re: FSI
As a student:
1. You will get very individual attention. Most instructors only have 1 or 2 students.
2. Jump into any VFR Cadet, they are all the same. Same can be said for all the new Seminoles. Maintenance there gets an A plus plus. Maintenance guys are always happy to teach you a thing or two. Great group of guys.
3. Even though I HATED standardization (one of the evil stand pilots has moved on--thank god), overall, it really added to the professional caliber of the instructors.
4. As with ANY flight school, add 20 percent to your cost that is quoted. The Private pilot syllabus is 32 hours! Very few people are able to meet the times quoted.
5. Gemini, gemini....It is a free opportunity to fly like crazy in the back seat and observe other students and instructors. In an industry where nothing is free...this is. Take advantage of it and you'll learn alot and keep your cost down.
6. The Microsoft Lab is another plus. It is free. The stupid things don't fly at all like the real thing, but it develops your scan, helps with holds and helps with approaches when you get to the instrument phase of your training. FREE.
7. Historically, there has been a rift between the ground school side of the business and the flight line. It degrades each side's professionalism. They may have done something to fix this. Not sure.
8. You are the customer and if you have a problem with something I believe they will try to fix it.

As an instructor I enjoyed my time there. Things have slowed to a snail's pace, however. This is no fault of FSI's. Just the times we live in. At one time I was flying over 100 hours a month. When I left, it was 30. There is a big pool of people waiting to instruct there.

Don't let that last paragraph discourage you. You can always interview, get into the pool and instruct someplace else.

As a side note as far as cost....yes it is expensive but I think most of it is justified. A trend I see at alot of flight schools is the insane cost of the cfi. People are spending 10K plus just for the CFI. Stupid.

 

[jldv]

AWESOME! Thanks, northmountain.

Any other FSI folks out there? It sounds like a very reputable place.

What about ATP? Any stories on them? Any specific location people have had success/frustration?

Thanks again.

 

[na265]

Great info from everyone. I would add to maybe look at Airman's in Oklahoma City(i think). The prices I have seen there seem pretty good. My story is that I attended a 2 yr Jr college in Altus, Ok after getting my 4 yr degree. The pace was way to slow, so, I went to American Flyers in Addison, Tx. I got my Single-comm-inst and CFI. From that point I went back to Lubbock and started to instruct. During that time I picked up my CFII, Multi and MEI. It worked well for me bc I was able to rent AC at a discount, being an employee. This was in the early-mid-90's. Not many jobs, so, I skipped from one school to another when the schools closed. This is what I did. It might not work for you.
I hope this helped. I think you are on the right track. It can be a long road. The important thing is to stick with it and not give up. All my friends who stayed with the dream, did make it to the regionals, some to the majors and I am working in a great corproate job. Good luck!

 

[Bouyer]

check them out

CHECK OUT AIRLINE TRAINING ACADEMY (WWW.FLYHERE.COM) IN ORLANDO GREAT TRAINING AND A GREAT MANAGEMENT TEAM. THEY HAVE SEVERAL TRAINING ROUTES TO CHOOSE FROM. I AM A STUDENT THERE AND I AM COMPLETELY SATISFIED WITH ALL SO FAR. I CHECKED OUT ABOUT 10 SCHOOLS BEFORE MAKING MY DECISION.
RELATIVELY ALL OF THE SCHOOLS OFFER THE SAME KIND OF TRAINING IT IS REALLY ABOUT YOUR INSTRUSTORS AND HOW GOOD THEY ARE. YOUR ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR TRAINING

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
I learned to fly at a small FBO in Massachusetts and later picked up my Commercial and Instrument on the same field. I was fortunate to have a very experienced instructors. One was a former USAF F-4 driver and the other was a CV-580 Captain.
After a 20 year career flying in helicopters as an aircrewman and staring at various scopes, recorders and flying "Starboard Delta for too many hours to count. I retired and have commenced a new career as a flight instructor. I completed my C-AMEL, CFI, CFII and MEI with ATP (Airline Transport Professionals). Pretty good outfit, and excellent training. I'd recommend it, but only if you are already proficient on instruments because if you are struggling with that on top of learning their procedures and the airplane it will be an uphill battle. Overall it was money well spent and I lucked out into a full-time instructor gig as soon as I returned home. However, lately all I've done is shovel a lot of snow in hopes of better flying weather!
Good luck and remember that integrity is everything in this business.

Regards,

ex-Navy rotorhead

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa

You also mentioned Mesa. I instructed there, too, and I thought you'd like a few comments.

Mesa Airlines Pilot Development is different from FlightSafety. Mesa's school trains its students from the beginning to be pilots for Mesa Airlines. The students receive training for their Commercial-Instrument-Multi and a two year Aviation Technology degree from San Juan College in Farmington. It has similar degree programs set up at Arizona State and Midland College in Texas (I believe that is the correct school). Graduates leave with 300 hours. Those who do what they're supposed to do and act the way they're supposed to act will get an interview with Mesa Airlines. The program works. I worked there only for a term, but I know that at least four of my seven students got on with Mesa.

You might be asking, why only four of seven? For the reasons I stated above. MAPD students are scrutinized closely from the moment they start training and the bad actors are identified quickly. I had two such persons; one of whom actually flew decently but did not act decently. He was an AF veteran and felt he was owed. That is not the way to comport yourself at Mesa, or FSI, or any school from which you hope to gain employment!

(I don't know what happened to one of my students and the other was another problem type.)

Mesa is not an accelerated program. Quite the contrary. It is an eighteen-month program. You take one flight course per semester along with your other college courses. I don't recall any of my students taking a full load. Most already have degrees or some college and are taking enough courses to meet the A.S. requirements. That's the method I would recommend, because taking a full load and flying at Mesa is a major workload.

Contrary to what many people believe, MAPD is not P-F-T. Although you are imbued with Mesa line procedures from Day One, the tickets you earn at MAPD are good anywhere. MAPD does not offer a CFI program.

Finally, although you might get "the interview," from that point on you are on your own. You are not a shoe-in for a job, although the contacts you may have made as a student might help you. And you most certainly aren't a shoe-in to make it through ground school and training. You might be ahead of the game regarding Mesa SOPs, but the street hires, who have been around longer and have more experience, will catch up and maybe go past you. You'll have to work as hard as anyone, maybe harder, to make it to the line.

Hope that helps some more. Good luck with your decision.

 

[tarp]

JLDV - you asked:

"What is poverty, by the way? What are the wages for a new instructor? Corporate FO? Regional FO? Commercial FO?"

I go way back (like to the eighties) so I don't have any current situation but you can just ask the school.

Back in my day, (I'll use Comair Academy as an example), they would ask the top students in a "class" group to visit the Chief Pilot's office. The "offer" which was considered a "reward" and quite an honor was to accept an 18-month contract. The contract had these points -

1.) $12,500/yr salary, BUT..
2.) Free housing (double occupancy in one of their Apartments)
3.) A Comair Brasilia orientation ride at the end of the contract and
4.) The "opportunity" to interview with Comair.

My current employer pays all first year FO's $21.53/flt-hr. and the current training stipend is $200/wk. This is regional pay.

My local FBO pays their new flight instructors $12.00/hr for every flight/ground school hour they bill. (More for CFII and gold seals)

But you say you've researched this stuff.....you should know these numbers by now. Yes, newly minted CFI's have a hard time with money.

If FO pay at the regional is $21,000 (given the 1000hr/yr max) and most CFI's are dying to get that job, then you can imagine what the typical CFI is clearing while trying to fly hundreds of hours in trainer planes.

It ain't pretty. But all the crazies here on this board seem to like it. Paying my dues, paying my dues.

 

[jldv]

Thanks again.

This move is for sanity, not pay.

I've researched my training options. Pay isn't one thing I've looked into a great deal. It isn't a major factor to be honest. I've assumed it will be pretty sad for a long while and I'll just have to get back to college livin'.

But at least I won't be in an office.