Flexjet Union Drive on the move

[Jetz]

"Our management takes care of us".... "There must be WMDs in Iraq"..... "Go ahead, drink the koolaid" --Jim Jones.

I wonder what happens the day CS management decides to cut salaries by 20% to increase management bounuses.... I wonder what happens when Cessna and TAG sell CS to NJA in order to secure more aircraft sales.... Union leaders come and go and management folks come and go and the only thing left is a piece of paper... and without a union, that piece of paper comes from a roll in the men's room. "Our management takes care of us" sheessh...

Another fine F.U.D. dud.

 

[choppengruven]

Another fine F.U.D. dud.

Hey Jetz,
Your one of those "it will never happen to me guys" arent you? Thats just funny. Go ahead and keep farting through your silk sheets brother I dont really care

 

[The Great One]

yep very true
get the union in before mgt gets to you because they will sooner or later.
Look at most jobs everywhere not just aviation.
mgt only look at one thing: their retirement
nobody cares anymore

 

[netjetwife]

I hate to admit it but, I agree with netjetwife!

Face it folks, this unionization is moving forward at Flex. I can't say all the details here but, get your cards in. We are extremely close to our goal. Send them in again if its been awhile also in case its been more than a year since you sent them the first time.

It's quite alright Cosmo, it happens frequently and no one will hold it against you..... Certainly not me... Eventually, people realize 1) I fully support all of the frac pilots; they are professionals and should be treated/compensated as such. 2) I am well informed and can discuss the issues. 3) I am in favor of respectful discourse about the problems facing the industry and will listen to all opinions on how to raise the bar.

It's no secret that I personally believe an organized group of pilots have the best chance to gain the contract they deserve by merit of their contribution to the company. It's rather obvious, however, that nothing else has worked at Flex and if management was inclined to treat/pay the pilots like the professionals they are it would have happened already. CS pilots got a pay raise very quickly after the NJ pilots won their new contract. Next month makes the one year anniversary of the NJ CBA. Clearly, management would have done right by the pilots, by now, if they had any intentions of doing so.

With Flex pilots taking a strong step forward in the move to the bargaining table that will lend momentum to the Flt Ops pilots. It will definitely be a solid show of support for their cause and obviously your own... Remember, a standing ovation is more effective when all of the audience stands at the same time. The more voices are raised in the call for industry standard wages the easier it will be to get management's attention.
Go Flex Pilots!
NJW

 

[RNObased]

I hate to admit it but, I agree with netjetwife!

Face it folks, this unionization is moving forward at Flex. I can't say all the details here but, get your cards in. We are extremely close to our goal. Send them in again if its been awhile also in case its been more than a year since you sent them the first time.

Holy cats, I agreed with NJW and now the assman agrees with her, what is the world coming to.

 

[netjetwife]

News Flash--NJW has a clue....

Hey, RNO, did you see your card? Wasn't it a perfect match?

Do you think I should embarrass Cosmo likewise....

To answer your question, one hopes that the frac world is coming to the realization that the pilots can further their mutual goals by working together. When we have the best interests of the frac pilots and their families at heart, it isn't at all surprising that we will find common ground.
Best wishes to all frac pilots,
Netjetwife

 

[xpdriver]

I am as guilty as the next guy keeping this post going...But this is such a waste of time..These anti-union guys are probably mgmt or just stupid,,And you know what they say..You can't fix stupid...,I'm going to watch my grass grow,The grass(sod) I bought with my retro(sorry I needed a parting shot)..

 

[DBCOOPER]

Humphrybogart does not represent at all the majority of CitationShares pilots. I don't really understand why he continues to post such arrogant crap. I invite him to send me a private message so that I can try to figure out who he is and bring him out of the clouds....

CS is a young company that now needs no union. This has been said before, if they start to screw us then that's a different story, but so far so good. A large fraction of the pilots at CS are ex-airline, ex ALPA pilots. We know what is out there and what we need at this point. Ofcourse, all the TWA guys I talk to are a little skiddish on unions (rightfully so).

The fact that some of you out there feel you need to make yourself feel superior by saying your company is the best, or that everyone owes you a big thank you....get OVER YOURSELVES. This industry goes around and around and those sitting at the "top" can soon be at the bottom or gone with the wind. Anyone that thinks otherwise just knows nothing about aviation history.

Whoever is bashing CS for their call sign and tip reimbursement.....get better ammo, you sound like an idiot.

 

[Hogprint]

Bogey posted:

Our management takes care of us, that is why WE are the class of the field.

Quick question Bogey...How many pilots are at CS now? I'm guessing it's around or below 400. When y'all reach the 1000 mark, I wonder if you will sing the same tune.

Every thing I've heard from you guys on the road has been positive. Enjoy the good times now. History has shown that at some point the fun ride will end. The union will be essential then.

 

[ArtVandalay]

I keep hearing ALOT more union talk now at Flexjet. There are no signs of any raises next year or much growth. Lets keep the cards coming in guys. THIS WILL HAPPEN NOW.

 

[Humphreybogart]

Better read the post I brought up about the support you'd receive from your 1108 "brothers". Sounds like they'd let you hang out to dry should you need them. Hmmm, something to think about, huh?

 

[GEXDriver]

The Flex guys would be maroons to vote in 1108.

All they have to do is look at Flops to see what the union has done to that organization. Organizing killed the raise that management was trying to give them. Quality of life and compensation has gone into the toilet since they voted in the Teamsters. They now have an adversarial relationship with management and are working counter to the leadership's simple desire to develop a business plan that will keep Flops in business.

Flops executives weren't against organizing - they just wanted a cooperative union that worked with management for the betterment of the company. The example they cited was SWAPA at Southwest. But noooooo, the pilots at Flops wanted to punish management and in the final analysis all they have done is punish themselves.

 

[dime line]

Hump You know nothing about what "support" that they will recieve from "Your 1108 Brothers"

Again you have no clue

 

[Frac Daddy]

GEXDriver,

The Flex guys would be maroons to vote in 1108.

All they have to do is look at Flops to see what the union has done to that organization. Organizing killed the raise that management was trying to give them. Quality of life and compensation has gone into the toilet since they voted in the Teamsters. They now have an adversarial relationship with management and are working counter to the leadership's simple desire to develop a business plan that will keep Flops in business.

Flops executives weren't against organizing - they just wanted a cooperative union that worked with management for the betterment of the company. The example they cited was SWAPA at Southwest. But noooooo, the pilots at Flops wanted to punish management and in the final analysis all they have done is punish themselves.

I got news for you.....The QOL and compensation were going into the toilet whether there was a union or not. That IS Scheeringa's business plan for FLOPS.

Are you a FLOPS pilot? I was and I can tell you your assessment of the situation is 180 degrees off.

 

[GEXDriver]

I got news for you.....The QOL and compensation were going into the toilet whether there was a union or not. That IS Scheeringa's business plan for FLOPS.

Are you a FLOPS pilot? I was and I can tell you your assessment of the situation is 180 degrees off.

Great, tell me what the Teamsters have done for Flops besides costing them the raise that management was trying to give them in January and poisoning the work environment.

 

[GerryG]

The Flex guys would be maroons to vote in 1108.

All they have to do is look at Flops to see what the union has done to that organization. Organizing killed the raise that management was trying to give them. Quality of life and compensation has gone into the toilet since they voted in the Teamsters. They now have an adversarial relationship with management and are working counter to the leadership's simple desire to develop a business plan that will keep Flops in business.

Flops executives weren't against organizing - they just wanted a cooperative union that worked with management for the betterment of the company. The example they cited was SWAPA at Southwest. But noooooo, the pilots at Flops wanted to punish management and in the final analysis all they have done is punish themselves.

Under the RLA management was prohibited from giving us that raise you are talking about. The RLA states that when management could reasonably be expected to have known that a Union drive was underway a "laboratory period" is in effect. And since FLOPS management was offering that raise at the end of January 06 more than a year into the Union drive they could not have legally given the raise. What's more, since they were being advised at the time by Ford&Harrison, FLOPS management knew that. So the promised raise was simply a ruse, an attempt to bust the Union drive.

Oh and yes things have gone in the toilet since the Union was voted in. Once more you smell the stench of F&H all over this. This is a standard Union busting tactic, they are attempting to make things seem so bad to the average line pilot that when it comes time for a decert campaign, those pilots will look back with hopeful nostalgia an the days before the big bad union came along. It's not going to work, but they always try it.

Oh and the funniest part of your post, "Flops executives weren't against organizing", come on man they hired Ford&Harrison, one of the most infamous Union busting law firms in the country. You must be joking. Oh yea management did want to put in a nut-less pilot association, they were going to call it FOPA of all things. They even found some sycophantic kool aid drinking pilots to try and organize that for them. Only problem was those pilots were not to computer savvy and they left their fingerprints all over the emails they sent out to our pilot group, and the Union found out who they were and squashed them like the little bugs they were.

So what has the Union done for us so far? We now have the right to representation when called into Clown Co. for a carpet dance, we have the ASAP program with a Union rep on the ERC to protect our pilots, we no longer have to answer our phones in the early am after 10 hrs of rest. We no longer have to live with the fear that if we write up an airplane at the wrong time management will wave our jobs under our nose. We have had 4 negotiation sessions so far and are making good progress toward the goal of a contract. And the subservient relationship that we used to have with our middle management is slowly evaporating.

I will never again work for a big non-union company. I have sympathy for those that do. Thing is you don't even know how much the yolk of indentured union-less servitude weighs until you throw it off.

 

[GEXDriver]

Under the RLA management was prohibited from giving us that raise you are talking about.

That's precisely what I was talking about. You guys did that to yourselves by voting in the union just prior to the finalization of what was to be a significant raise.

Oh and the funniest part of your post, "Flops executives weren't against organizing", come on man they hired Ford&Harrison, one of the most infamous Union busting law firms in the country.

That would seem a reasonable response to bringing the Teamsters, fundamentaly a criminal enetrprise, on property. Every Teamster president since the 1930's has either been indicted or gone to prison.

You must be joking. Oh yea management did want to put in a nut-less pilot association, they were going to call it FOPA of all things. They even found some sycophantic kool aid drinking pilots to try and organize that for them. Only problem was those pilots were not to computer savvy and they left their fingerprints all over the emails they sent out to our pilot group, and the Union found out who they were and squashed them like the little bugs they were.

Two points:

1. Organizations like SWAPA or the proposed FOPA are non-profit organizations formed solely for the benefit of the pilots. The Teamsters are a business that makes their profits from you.

2. I can' believe that you freely admit that the first thing the Teamsters did was resort to typical union thugism and intimidate the voices of opposition into silence.

So what has the Union done for us so far? We now have the right to representation when called into Clown Co. for a carpet dance, we have the ASAP program with a Union rep on the ERC to protect our pilots, we no longer have to answer our phones in the early am after 10 hrs of rest. We no longer have to live with the fear that if we write up an airplane at the wrong time management will wave our jobs under our nose. We have had 4 negotiation sessions so far and are making good progress toward the goal of a contract. And the subservient relationship that we used to have with our middle management is slowly evaporating.

Empty rhetoric. Show me the increase in your financial bottom line. Oh, so far it's a net loss, huh? Which due to the time value of money, creates an economic opportunity loss which will take you years to recover from, if ever.

How about quality of life? Oops, no improvement there either. Your guys come into the FBO which houses our flight department. They used to be a pretty happy group of pilots. Sure, there was some grousing about the number of hours flown and some banter between the Flight Options guys and the former Travel Air pilots, but all and all thy seemed to be a pretty normal group of pilots.

Now one third of the guys are always PO'd at the two-thirds that voted in the union and the other two-thirds are mad at management and just about everything else.

I don't know about you, but I like liking to come to work and I don't think that much happens at your place.

Anyway, the thrust of my original post was directed at Flex, not Flops, you guys are already screwed. I simply suggested that Flex pilots look at what the Teamsters did to Flops before they decided to send their cards in.

I will never again work for a big non-union company. I have sympathy for those that do. Thing is you don't even know how much the yolk of indentured union-less servitude weighs until you throw it off.

I appreciate your sympathy. The average pilot in my department makes a buck and a half a year. We also get stock and have a defined benefit pension plan. How does that compare to what your union has negotiated for you?

 

[GerryG]

That's precisely what I was talking about. You guys did that to yourselves by voting in the union just prior to the finalization of what was to be a significant raise.

Ok let me spell it out more simply for you. The Union drive began summer 04, Flops management became aware of it shortly thereafter, thus legally putting in place a laboratory period under the RLA. December 05, company is aware the organizers are about to call for a Union vote so they start talking about a raise, even though they know they can't really offer one. This is done because they want to subsequently try and blame the Union for the non-pay-raise in an effort to stave off the vote for the Union. Feb. 06, one month prior to the vote, company does just that. March 06, Union voted in anyway and company is suddenly poor and unable to give the raise they were offering just 2 months earlier and also is suddenly overstaffed and might need to furlough. BS

That would seem a reasonable response to bringing the Teamsters, fundamentally a criminal enetrprise, on property. Every Teamster president since the 1930's has either been indicted or gone to prison.

Yes I know the bad old Teamsters. That's such a tired response. We voted in the IBT1108, which has an excellent track record for representing its pilots.

Two points:

1. Organizations like SWAPA or the proposed FOPA are non-profit organizations formed solely for the benefit of the pilots. The Teamsters are a business that makes their profits from you.

FOPA would have been a tool of management. It was put forth with the assistance of management, in an effort to bust the union drive. The Teamsters can go toe-to-toe with management financially, FOPA would have been an empty shell. SWPA benefits from the benevolent nature of their management. In case you haven't heard M.S. runs options. Nice pilot loving kind of guy he is not. Pilot hating, pilot disrespecting kind of guy is what he is, and he would have chewed up FOPA and spit them out.

2. I can' believe that you freely admit that the first thing the Teamsters did was resort to typical union thugism and intimidate the voices of opposition into silence.

I think what the Union organizers did was defend the flight options pilots from the very real threat that management would put in place an organization that was nothing more than a tool. A management run group that would have been nothing more then a way for MS to push through his intended plans. Call it thuggery if you want but you have to be strong to fight people like M.S. and his gang.

Empty rhetoric. Show me the increase in your financial bottom line. Oh, so far it's a net loss, huh? Which due to the time value of money, creates an economic opportunity loss which will take you years to recover from, if ever.

It will take a bit of time but we will get there. I think a 40% raise will go a long way to helping us recover.

How about quality of life? Oops, no improvement there either. Your guys come into the FBO which houses our flight department. They used to be a pretty happy group of pilots. Sure, there was some grousing about the number of hours flown and some banter between the Flight Options guys and the former Travel Air pilots, but all and all thy seemed to be a pretty normal group of pilots.

Now one third of the guys are always PO'd at the two-thirds that voted in the union and the other two-thirds are mad at management and just about everything else.

I don't know about you, but I like liking to come to work and I don't think that much happens at your place.

Anyway, the thrust of my original post was directed at Flex, not Flops, you guys are already screwed. I simply suggested that Flex pilots look at what the Teamsters did to Flops before they decided to send their cards in.

I appreciate your sympathy. The average pilot in my department makes a buck and a half a year. We also get stock and have a defined benefit pension plan. How does that compare to what your union has negotiated for you?

I'm glad it's all working out for you brother, but the fact is for us it was not. We had a choice, fight, or run away. A lot of us chose to fight, because we feel that fundamentally flight options is a good company with a promising future. A lot of us felt that we had too much time invested to just walk away without challenging the crap M.S. is dishing out. Yes we are angry as a group now, just as the NJ pilots were during their contract negotiations. This I think is a normal reaction to being at war with your company. It is an unfortunate necessity. We will come out the other side of this fight, with a good contract. This something you will never have. Remember your company might one day decide to hire a M.S. of it's very own. If that happens, to whom will you turn. Will you simply quit and get another job. Will you be able to simply walk into another job that pays "a buck and a half"? What if your 62 when your company decides to hire a M.S., will you be able to easily find another high paying job at that age?

Yea we are in a fight now and yes our pilots are angry, but once we get our contract we will not have to worry about any of those issues. Flight Options will become a career company, just as NJ has.

 

[gunfyter]

GEX,

What stops management from agreeing to a Raise and contract now?

You are working for a Fortune 100 company I am guessing. Whole different situation.

 

[WabiSabi]

GEX, it is fortunate that you weren't in Jonestown, Guyana during the great kool aid bash. You wouldn't be here posting today:laugh:

 

[jonjuan]

GEX, it is fortunate that you weren't in Jonestown, Guyana during the great kool aid bash. You wouldn't be here posting today:laugh:

Heck, NJA wouldn't exist if they were all there.

 

[netjetwife]

Excellent posts, Gerry G! It never fails that the anti-union crowd typically ignores the fact that had their peers been treated/compensated like professionals to begin with there would have been no need to organize.

In any group you can find dishonest people--that's reality. But we shouldn't paint all members with the same brush; that's bigotry. The pilots that have organized should be judged on their own merits. Let fairness prevail.

Had FLOPS and FLEX managers intended to pay their pilots like professionals they would have done so years ago. I can easily see how standing up for themselves would begin to change the way the pilots are perceived. It's all easy to follow: Flex pilots are where NJ pilots were before they voted in new leadership and started fighting back; Flt Ops pilots are in the same place NJ pilots were when they were in contract negotiations; and NJ pilots are much better off today than they were this time last year. The Options pilots will come thru, too. Flex pilots could help the Options cause and their own by sending in their cards and adding their voices to those in the industry demanding professional compensation for professional pilots.

So what if one-third of the pilot group is still not getting it? The same thing happened at NJ, too. It's simply human nature that there will always be those either too selfish (they're satisfied) or too fearful to stand up for what the pilot group deserves. Just watch--when the contract comes thru they'll be happy to collect...

NJ pilots are starting to talk about the 2nd installment of their signing bonus that will be showing up soon. Look to the future Options pilots and hang in there! Your demands are justified and you're doing the right thing for yourselves, your families, and your fellow frac pilots. Best Wishes! NJW

 

[jonjuan]

Excellent posts, Gerry G! It never fails that the anti-union crowd typically ignores the fact that had their peers been treated/compensated like professionals to begin with there would have been no need to organize.

In any group you can find dishonest people--that's reality. But we shouldn't paint all members with the same brush; that's bigotry. The pilots that have organized should be judged on their own merits. Let fairness prevail.

Had FLOPS and FLEX managers intended to pay their pilots like professionals they would have done so years ago. I can easily see how standing up for themselves would begin to change the way the pilots are perceived. It's all easy to follow: Flex pilots are where NJ pilots were before they voted in new leadership and started fighting back; Flt Ops pilots are in the same place NJ pilots were when they were in contract negotiations; and NJ pilots are much better off today than they were this time last year. The Options pilots will come thru, too. Flex pilots could help the Options cause and their own by sending in their cards and adding their voices to those in the industry demanding professional compensation for professional pilots.

So what if one-third of the pilot group is still not getting it? The same thing happened at NJ, too. It's simply human nature that there will always be those either too selfish (they're satisfied) or too fearful to stand up for what the pilot group deserves. Just watch--when the contract comes thru they'll be happy to collect...

NJ pilots are starting to talk about the 2nd installment of their signing bonus that will be showing up soon. Look to the future Options pilots and hang in there! Your demands are justified and you're doing the right thing for yourselves, your families, and your fellow frac pilots. Best Wishes! NJW

Speaking of Koolaid. FLOPS has been losing 10s of millions of dollars per year. I agree, their pilots should be compensated more than they currently are, but where do you suggest they get the money from? They are currently losing owners hand over fist. Raising management will accelerate the owner exodus. Do you have any ideas?

 

[cosmotheassman]

GEX has never been in a situation to need a union that is why he can talk his BS. Talks a big game when nothing is at stake for him.

Bottom line here is that the unionization of Flexjet is moving forward people. We are so close to it that a sneeze would set off a vote.

My take on a union at Flex is this: Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

 

[FamilyGuy]

GEX,

You are working for a Fortune 100 company I am guessing. Whole different situation.

Interesting. That runs counter to what you claimed during the negotiations. You were falling all over yourselves to trot out the NBAA average pilot wages then, now you claim it is a different situation. Good to see you finally recognize your past error.

 

[netjetwife]

JJ, first I'd make sure the company wasn't too top heavy on the management side. VPs of this, that, and the other don't come cheap. Are they all really necessary? The pilots don't seem to think so. It is basic common sense and human nature that employees who feel respected and valued are more productive and motivated than those who don't. I suggest that management do a better job taking care of the pilots who take care of operations and pax.

FG, you're taking Gunfyter's comment out of context, I believe. I think he was suggesting that those who are well paid themselves (as GEX stated he was) often have a difficult time identifying with those who are not. I know GF, and I don't see him conceding to you that he was in "error" in the past.

Cosmo, excellent analogy! That's exactly why I sometimes compare a union to insurance--all too easy to take for granted--until you need it.
Good Luck to the Flex pilots!
Netjetwife

 

[FraxJockey]

My take on a union at Flex is this: Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Call it a preventative lobotomy...if you will. Sorry couldn't resist.

 

[netjetwife]

I don't think the many pilots who have been helped by 1108 Union Stewards would consider it a laughing matter. To the contrary, my husband has frequently been thanked for his aid. I can't understand what some of you have against pilots helping pilots. That's what it's all about, you know...

On the other hand, they don't. Sad. The NJ pilots have realized the benefit in standing together and the Options pilots are, likewise, beginning to see that there is strength in numbers. Hundreds of voices raised together can bring more attention to their cause than individual pilots trying to register a protest on their own. The Options pilots are currently at the bargaining table--not Flex. That fact speaks for itself.

Doing essentially the same job for less seems to me the crazier idea....

 

[FraxJockey]

I don't think the many pilots who have been helped by 1108 Union Stewards would consider it a laughing matter. To the contrary, my husband has frequently been thanked for his aid. I can't understand what some of you have against pilots helping pilots. That's what it's all about, you know...

On the other hand, they don't. Sad. The NJ pilots have realized the benefit in standing together and the Options pilots are, likewise, beginning to see that there is strength in numbers. Hundreds of voices raised together can bring more attention to their cause than individual pilots trying to register a protest on their own. The Options pilots are currently at the bargaining table--not Flex. That fact speaks for itself.

Doing essentially the same job for less seems to me the crazier idea....

You remind me of those Jehova's witnesses that keep knocking on my door every so often...preaching that I need to be saved (I must apologize if I have offended any Jehova's witnesses). Thank you for being SO worried about our well being.

 

[WabiSabi]

Heck, NJA wouldn't exist if they were all there.

uhm, well, you missed the point and your logic (or lack thereof) isn't applicable. NJA's pilots have a contract and the company is now profitable. that is not what I would call "drinking kool aid". however, GEX, like you (except you're not as smart) is towing a pro management/anti union rhetorical line. this is drinking the Kool Aid...especially if someone is an advocate of the current management at FLOPS.

your post is a nonsequitur.....idiot