FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[dime line]

Dime,

2 questions

What rest rules do you guys operate under? Unless you are doing a 91 position flight I don't see how a crew could accept anything over 14 hours.

What does your contract say. Isn't this the type of thing that the IBT promoters are saying having a union and contract will prevent us from having to endure.

135 always, hardly any 91k or pure 91. All rest is based on 135. But were allowed to go over 14hr if it was reasonably scheduled, "Reasonably" is the key. And the Feds have signed off on it. So if the flight was reasonably scheduled but the owner went to the bar, we are good to go, if the crew agrees to the going over 14hrs. And to be fair the company doesn't pressure us, all though they do ask, but the dark side is the company knows who does and who doesn't.

im not sure of the contract, but I don't think there is anything in there that covers specifics about this issue. I could be wrong

 

[learflyer]

Dime.

How many recent new hires does Flops have in their pool? Has every layoff been recalled?

 

[slowtation capt]

Is it possible that Kenn is being so open with his "plans" (which to me seems very odd too, to share that kind of intel with the grunt labor so early on) just to pit the Flex and Flops pilots against each other as they fight over who would get to fly these new birds?

This is what Kenn does. Tells you 10 things, 1 is gonna be true the others are all theories, hopes and wishes in his head. He wants all these things to go around the "rumor" mill. Just fly Kenn, the first thing he will say to you is, "Hear any good rumors". Yes, that is exactly what he wants, in-house fighting, cause that divides, then he can conquer.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Correct, there would be no automatic pay cut when single carrier status is established. However, the finding of single carrier status would trigger a vote by the combined pilot group on whether they wished to be represented by the IBT1108, not represented at all, or represented by another entity. Exactly how that vote would be structured, i have no idea.

As I understand it, if the vote is in favor of representation by the IBT1108, the combined group would be covered by the existing Flight Options CBA, since the Flex crews have no existing collective bargaining CBA, which would result in all crewmembers reverting to the FO pay scale unless the CBA is somehow amended by LOA or whatever.

I'm not a labor lawyer, this is simply what I have learned from watching the process, researching, and speaking to people involved in the process.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment. From my research/understanding/what we've been told at Flex, if the NMB rules single carrier, and then a vote for the IBT is successful, we are not immediately covered by the contract. Instead we would be covered by our current employee agreement (current work rules and pay) until a new contract is written up and voted on by the entire group. This is how it has worked in the past with other companies. Below is a excerpt from an IBT local 104 FAQ sheet about the USair/AA merger.

"Once US Airways and American are determined to be a single carrier and the NMB orders an election,
which may take a year or longer, then we will be voting not only to keep our Union but also our contract. If the Union wins the election among the combined group, then our contract will remain in place covering pre-merger US Airways employees just as it does today. The pre-merger American employees will be represented by the Union, but will remain without a contract until the Union and new American agree on a contract that covers the entire combined group and that contract is ratified by the combined group. In this scenario, no pre-merger US Airways Passenger Service Employee will ever be without the protection of your Union contract."

http://www.teamsterslocal104.com/Lo...S and AA Merger Questions and Answers IBT.pdf

Not a major point to argue over, and years down the road, but I'm just saying that Flex pilots do not have to fear an automatic pay cut if a pro IBT vote were to happen. The company can of course lower our pay at their will, but we don't get "forced" onto the options contract the day after a pro IBT vote. A new one would have to be written up.

 

[Fresh Air]

I respectfully disagree with your assessment. From my research/understanding/what we've been told at Flex, if the NMB rules single carrier, and then a vote for the IBT is successful, we are not immediately covered by the contract. Instead we would be covered by our current employee agreement (current work rules and pay) until a new contract is written up and voted on by the entire group. This is how it has worked in the past with other companies. Below is a excerpt from an IBT local 104 FAQ sheet about the USair/AA merger.

"Once US Airways and American are determined to be a single carrier and the NMB orders an election,
which may take a year or longer, then we will be voting not only to keep our Union but also our contract. If the Union wins the election among the combined group, then our contract will remain in place covering pre-merger US Airways employees just as it does today. The pre-merger American employees will be represented by the Union, but will remain without a contract until the Union and new American agree on a contract that covers the entire combined group and that contract is ratified by the combined group. In this scenario, no pre-merger US Airways Passenger Service Employee will ever be without the protection of your Union contract."

http://www.teamsterslocal104.com/Lo...S and AA Merger Questions and Answers IBT.pdf

Not a major point to argue over, and years down the road, but I'm just saying that Flex pilots do not have to fear an automatic pay cut if a pro IBT vote were to happen. The company can of course lower our pay at their will, but we don't get "forced" onto the options contract the day after a pro IBT vote. A new one would have to be written up.

Maybe you are right, but the American/USAirways merger was between two unionized carriers, each of whom had a CBA, unlike the Flops/Flex situation.

I guess we will have to see how it shakes out!

 

[FR8DOG777]

I say we turn up the heat and burn the ********************er down from both sides

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I say we turn up the heat and burn the ********************er down from both sides

777

Now there is the STMD attitude I am used to at a unionized carrier.

We at FJ are quite happy. Feel free to do as you wish with "your" side of the house.

Can you tell me exactly what you mean by turning up the heat. You have not been released to self help by the NMB and are currently under a CBA. Any job action you are proposing is illegal. Having a union and CBA incurs rules for employees and management.

We have quite a few pilots at FJ that previously worked for unionized carriers. Most of these pilots are our strongest anti union employees. If you run into a FJ pilot who is in favor of a union ask term if they have ever worked for a unionized carrier. I bet the answer is no.

 

[FR8DOG777]

I can appreciate your exuberant "attitude" to try and make things work here with uncle. I have three transport type ratings and have worked for a few "unionized" carriers prior to this rodeo. I can promise you this, the only pain this mother ********************er we both work for will feel is in the pocketbook. So yes I say burn the ********************er down. Lets see uncle rebuild and talk the owners into following him elsewhere after a colossal ******************** up here. I'm ready to do it, are you? He is playing both sides to the T. ******************** it, shut him down. I never wanted to work for a wife cheating, greedy son of a bitch anyways!

 

[FR8DOG777]

You guys are all pussies, the way i see it,,,,,,who the ******************** is gonna fly all these airplaines? We all have the golden shoes waiting to be clicked together. Flex, Flops, Xo, Tmc, whatever? Send Ricci/rossi back to wherever! yes TWA whatever<STMFD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[johnnyride24]

Mou

apa and usapa signed the mou agreeing to a new contract that addressed pay, work rules, according to the aa green book. This mou was created prior to the completion of the merger and went into affect on the signing of the merger.

So that being said if this wasnt the case aa and us would be the same scenario as the east and west pilots of us. Currently aa and us pilots are on the same contract until they get a new jcba. Pay rates have been created for five years and at 2016 thet go parity to delta rates.

I see (us) flex and flops becoming the east and west pilots pre aa merger, us/aw merger. We will keep our pay rates and work rules and flops will keep there contract.

Uncle ken will play us against each other for the next ten years and we will never see a raise on either side or better work rules.

With the airlines all raising there pay a 15 year flex 300 or 605 captain makes less then a 717 captain at delta on reserve.

We are under payed..... Once again.... I recommend all flex pilots apply to aa, ua, dal, luv asap. The first year pay cut will be hard though in the long run you will make more and have a better carrer.

i respectfully disagree with your assessment. From my research/understanding/what we've been told at flex, if the nmb rules single carrier, and then a vote for the ibt is successful, we are not immediately covered by the contract. Instead we would be covered by our current employee agreement (current work rules and pay) until a new contract is written up and voted on by the entire group. This is how it has worked in the past with other companies. Below is a excerpt from an ibt local 104 faq sheet about the usair/aa merger.

"once us airways and american are determined to be a single carrier and the nmb orders an election,
which may take a year or longer, then we will be voting not only to keep our union but also our contract. If the union wins the election among the combined group, then our contract will remain in place covering pre-merger us airways employees just as it does today. The pre-merger american employees will be represented by the union, but will remain without a contract until the union and new american agree on a contract that covers the entire combined group and that contract is ratified by the combined group. In this scenario, no pre-merger us airways passenger service employee will ever be without the protection of your union contract."

http://www.teamsterslocal104.com/lo...s and aa merger questions and answers ibt.pdf

not a major point to argue over, and years down the road, but i'm just saying that flex pilots do not have to fear an automatic pay cut if a pro ibt vote were to happen. The company can of course lower our pay at their will, but we don't get "forced" onto the options contract the day after a pro ibt vote. A new one would have to be written up.

 

[Brit]

You guys are all pussies, the way i see it,,,,,,who the ******************** is gonna fly all these airplaines? We all have the golden shoes waiting to be clicked together. Flex, Flops, Xo, Tmc, whatever? Send Ricci/rossi back to wherever! yes TWA whatever<STMFD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sir,

You are in dire need of a BJ.

 

[Rupert.]

You guys are all pussies, the way i see it,,,,,,who the ******************** is gonna fly all these airplaines? We all have the golden shoes waiting to be clicked together. Flex, Flops, Xo, Tmc, whatever? Send Ricci/rossi back to wherever! yes TWA whatever<STMFD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your such an azz.

 

[el raton]

Sir,

You are in dire need of a BJ.

Sexual favors after only 4 post? Com'n man play a little hard to get.

 

[FR8DOG777]

yes Phil I am such an azz, and we are all tired of hearing how you lost 12k a year in pay but do nothing about it besides pander to ricci and his inhouse aspiriations!

 

[doh]

Rupert. We all make typos, but you are just beyond the pale.

 

[slowtation capt]

yes Phil I am such an azz, and we are all tired of hearing how you lost 12k a year in pay but do nothing about it besides pander to ricci and his inhouse aspiriations!

Phil's a little man that's pissed off because the union stood by the contract when the company wanted to violate it and just let them keep their pay.

Funny how the company agreed to certain rules in a section but then wanted to just not follow it and let them keep their pay. When the union has different proposals on how to effectively let them keep their pay and others benefit from it as well, the company says sorry, sorry you couldn't keep your pay, your union wouldn't let us.

The company wanted to follow the rules of the old days, everyone had their own pay scale because of side deals made.

Phil buys into the BS that the company feed him, see's a big pay cut coming his way, when he all ready is in over his head financially because some bank bought off on him bring in a NetJet's payscale while we were negiotating a contract and he told them that this is what I will be making. The bank says great, here is your loan for way more than you will ever be able afford.

Then Phil can't see beyond the play of KR and his CitationAir deal, again buys into the company bs, because Phil see's the CitationAir deal as his only way out of the Phenom that he has been relegated to fly. He wan't into a Soviergn, heck I bet he would have even gone so far as to go on a ramp and literaly throw their pilots out of the seats and jump right in.

 

[Fresh Air]

I can appreciate your exuberant "attitude" to try and make things work here with uncle. I have three transport type ratings and have worked for a few "unionized" carriers prior to this rodeo. I can promise you this, the only pain this mother ********************er we both work for will feel is in the pocketbook. So yes I say burn the ********************er down. Lets see uncle rebuild and talk the owners into following him elsewhere after a colossal ******************** up here. I'm ready to do it, are you? He is playing both sides to the T. ******************** it, shut him down. I never wanted to work for a wife cheating, greedy son of a bitch anyways!

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. Mine is that burning the ship on which we ride would be unwise. Better to fix it than burn it.

 

[shanes123]

Don't fly tired, sick, hungry, or a broke airplane. The way flops is running crews a fatigue call every other day is justified.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Don't fly tired, sick, hungry, or a broke airplane. The way flops is running crews a fatigue call every other day is justified.

What end result are you desiring from your plan?

Not sure about your hungry part. Are you not allowed to eat in the airplane. If so, how is FO enforcing that. We get crew meals and our company allows us to eat in flight if we are hungry. Maybe you can negotiate in flight food into your next contract.

All kidding asside, no one should ever fly sick or on a broke airplane. Tired and fatigued are not the same. We all have flown tired. I hope none of us have ever agreed to fly fatigued.

Shanes, you need to be careful because what you are suggesting could be viewed as an illegal job action. You have not been released into self help by the NMB. And organized work slowdown can get your union sued. Ask the APA about their sickout in the 90s.

Some people in the industry forget that we are pilots. We get paid to fly airplanes. We don't get paid to try to find any reason not to fly.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

What end result are you desiring from your plan?

Not sure about your hungry part. Are you not allowed to eat in the airplane. If so, how is FO enforcing that. We get crew meals and our company allows us to eat in flight if we are hungry. Maybe you can negotiate in flight food into your next contract.

All kidding asside, no one should ever fly sick or on a broke airplane. Tired and fatigued are not the same. We all have flown tired. I hope none of us have ever agreed to fly fatigued.

Shanes, you need to be careful because what you are suggesting could be viewed as an illegal job action. You have not been released into self help by the NMB. And organized work slowdown can get your union sued. Ask the APA about their sickout in the 90s.

Some people in the industry forget that we are pilots. We get paid to fly airplanes. We don't get paid to try to find any reason not to fly.

Tired is synonymous with fatigued to the aviation safety community. Don't fly tired and don't fly fatigued for those that think there is a practical layman's difference.

Threats of job action significantly decrease safety just as do threats of individual discipline by managers. Same goes for pilot/management/passenger/employee/et al to pilot intimidation.

There is plenty of information out there that show pilots are the worst judge of their fatigue state erring on the wrong side of safety. Combine that with reactive "systems" in which the pressure relief valve for fatigue safety is the pilot calling fatigued and it should be no surprise that fatigue is a contributing cause to many, many incidents and accidents.