FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[The Architect]

Oops..."we"?

Since we couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied.

"...we..."

We?

 

[CL300Pilot]

The big issue I see watching this going back and forth is that WE, Flexjet and FLOPS are one group of pilots under OneSky, yet WE are bickering like little girls. We all have our doubts and concerns, but let me ask you this. Instead of bickering and fighting, which accomplishes nothing, why not calmly and rationally try and educate each other. There is no end to the he said/ she said issue. TWA and others are correct that from our side of the fence, the Flexjet pilots stand to lose a whole lot more than our FLOPS brethern do.

One of the biggest issues the FLOPS pilots are fighting against, and it is one that still confuses me as I talk to you guys on the road, is that most of your issues began under MS. In talking to you, KR was no where in the picture during this. Also, when I talk to you on the road, I find that most of your guys that are pro union are angry and the anti union guys are not. I have a hard time personally considering something when a lot of your guys are so pro and yet miserable. I realize your contract, while there is some good in it, honestly stinks. But instead of being upset, why not place that anger into getting representatives that are going to make your lives better in this next round of contract negotiations?

I can tell you this, and I know it is not the feeling of most of the guys I have met at FLOPS. When you have one of your captains come onto one of our 300's after a Flex crew extends an olive branch, and sits it the left seat, it does no good when you have someone like that saying, "I am sure going to enjoy taking your seat."

One final thing and if someone can tell me how to put a picture on here, I will repost the infamous slide. TWA is also correct in that no where in the infamous slide does it say that KR plans to integrate the pilot groups. Based on the slide, and I have to figure it is accurate based on the conversations here from FLOPS guys, it will take your union to approach the NMB for a single carrier vote. If your group does not pursue that, then you get to work under you contract as is and we get to work with our management as we have since the inception of the company. It seems to me that so long as the 1108 does not pursue single carrier status, we get to stay one big happy separate family.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I can tell you this, and I know it is not the feeling of most of the guys I have met at FLOPS. When you have one of your captains come onto one of our 300's after a Flex crew extends an olive branch, and sits it the left seat, it does no good when you have someone like that saying, "I am sure going to enjoy taking your seat."

This was actually one of my good friends who was the CA. It happened in New Orleans. I wasn't gonna bring this up since this doesn't seem to be the attitude of the average FO pilot, but boy he sure made an impression. My friend is real quiet and super laid back. I got the call of "can you believe what this FO pilot did." Slowtation captain, was this you?

My only two experiences that haven't been positive was a FO in DAL that was very angry at me and love the F bomb. The other crew was in PDK. As we got off the plane the approached us and told me to have my FO put in 4 stripes because that us the way it is done at FO. He said we worked for you guys now and there are a lot if changes coming so we can operate like FO. I just walked away.

The reason we are afraid of the 1108 is because of the words that come from its members. I know these crews are in the minority and most of your pilots are awesome, but the VERY load vocal minority speaks for you unfortunately.

Bet you haven't run into FJ crews telling you how we can't wait to screw you over.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

"...we..."

We?

We = Flexjet

Quit trying to read things into posts.

 

[slowtation capt]

This was actually one of my good friends who was the CA. It happened in New Orleans. I wasn't gonna bring this up since this doesn't seem to be the attitude of the average FO pilot, but boy he sure made an impression. My friend is real quiet and super laid back. I got the call of "can you believe what this FO pilot did." Slowtation captain, was this you?

Yes it was me. What a joke

Are you kidding, I would never do something as idiotic as that.
Go back and look at my posts. You might not like what I say, but I have always said what is fair for you and fair for us, everyone is to maintain their seats and positions. Never have I said anything about trying to take over.

Trust me, these examples that you gave, they are the small group, They are looking stupid to you and they look stupid to us, and make us look stupid. They not only do things to harm this entire pilot group but they also do stupid stuff internately to hurt the FO group within the FO group.

 

[CL300Pilot]

nevermind...

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Picture yourself in a boat on a river
With tangerine trees and marmalade skies
Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly
A girl with kaleidoscope eyes

Celophane flowers of yellow and green
Towering over your head
Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes
And she's gone

 

[The Architect]

This is Good

The reason we are afraid of the 1108 is because of the words that come from its members. I know these crews are in the minority and most of your pilots are awesome, but the VERY load vocal minority speaks for you unfortunately.

Bet you haven't run into FJ crews telling you how we can't wait to screw you over.

Very good points.

Those crews are the minority. And most of the Flight Options pilots are reasonable, eductated and well-spoken. Just like Flexjet pilots.

So, everyone knows that extremists exist in both pilot groups and will certainly be the ones to find everything that was done wrong post-merger. Knowing that going in, reasonable exchanges can occur with the majority that are in the middle now.

Let's try to have those type of exchanges. A single carrier determination is inevitable. And a vote for representation will happen. Everyone should spend the time to learn about the pros and cons in order to make a decision.

 

[The Architect]

We the People...

We = Flexjet

Quit trying to read things into posts.

Don't be offended. I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

If "we" = Flexjet, the sentence would read "Since Flexjet [we] couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied."

Get it. First, Flexjet didn't deny access. Senior management with oversight of both pilot groups denied access. Yammer is available to every employee in both groups except Flight Options pilots. How dumb is that? But that's another discussion. Second, it is not about "trying to read things into posts." That sentence sounds as if though management wrote it or it was simply the result of a copy and paste from some other dialog. Just seeking the origin.

See, a reasonable question with a reasonable answer.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Don't be offended. I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

If "we" = Flexjet, the sentence would read "Since Flexjet [we] couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied."

Get it. First, Flexjet didn't deny access. Senior management with oversight of both pilot groups denied access. Yammer is available to every employee in both groups except Flight Options pilots. How dumb is that? But that's another discussion. Second, it is not about "trying to read things into posts." That sentence sounds as if though management wrote it or it was simply the result of a copy and paste from some other dialog. Just seeking the origin.

See, a reasonable question with a reasonable answer.

You are correct. The union was only concerned with how management would directly communicate with FO pilots. Of course I have no idea what exact restrictions were requested. I do believe that the 1108 had no objection to allowing crew to crew communications.

I think this would be a good idea as long as the conversation would be civil. I think it would be since Yammer uses real names so you can't hide behind a screen name and make bold and untrue statements.

 

[ProFracPilot]

The argument that the union doesn't want management communicating directly with pilots is a straw man. Management has no contractural limitations prohibiting communication. Frankly, they have the ability and every right to communicate directly with the pilots as often as they wish. The Yammer restriction is all about preventing pilots of both groups from communicating directly with one another, which is certainly something I believe the union would support. Regardless of what we've been told, logic dictates the restrictions come from the management side.

 

[CL-350]

Architect, my compadres are asking you some good pointed questions and you are dodging them like a congressman. Why is single carrier and integration inevitable? Can't we exist as separate pilot groups? Can Ricci march down to the local NMB office and file on his own? If you guys don't file, then why would the NMB rule? It has been my experience when someone or a group is overly anxious to make a deal and the other person or group is reluctant, then someone is about to get screwed. Just don't petition the NMB and this whole discussion will fade away. If you can't let go of this issue then obviously your intentions are hostile as it looks like any deal with Flops pilots will be at your gain and our loss. Answers please, no fluff.

 

[Photoflight]

Why would KR need permission from the NMB to combine the pilot groups?

 

[CL300Pilot]

Why would KR need permission from the NMB to combine the pilot groups?

My understanding, and others more educated on the matter can answer, is that it requires 50% + 1 to petition the NMB to look into whether it is a single carrier or not. Given the understanding from both sides that KR does not want the union, if he was able to do it himself, he would already have done so. While I also understand that the 50% +1 is either FLOPS or Flex, I don't see anyone here at Flex wanting to petition the NMB to make a ruling. Therefore, the petition to NMB for single carrier status must come from FLOPS and the 1108.

As people have stated her numerous times, since most of the Flexjet pilots want nothing to do with a union, and FLOPS pilots want their union, then why would anyone petition the NMB? I know that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but it seems to me that both pilot groups get what they want by no one petitioning the NMB. Please correct me if I am wrong.

On a side note, it sure is nice to see dialogue from opposing sides and no BS jabs being thrown.

 

[Photoflight]

I would think it probably has more to do with KR having to get all the owners to sign away from thier current companies and into the OneSky group with either Flexjet or flight options service levels.

I think it would be easier for him if the union demanded it. Then it could be shown to the owners that it's not his fault or doing he can simply blame the union.


But other than contractual obligations what's keeping him from simply combining the groups. The NMB, from what I've gathered, is more an employee or labor group resource.