FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[wingsnthings]

[I
The Net Jets pilot's current agreement was negotiated by the 1108 under the leadership of the NJ pilots in 2007. The disaffiliation happened in November of 2008.][/I]


Either way I think it is silly that this is the direction of the conversation.

 

[Praetorian]

I learned enough about the IBT when they decided to represent GoJets, knowing they were an alter ego, whipsaw operation. No thanks! I'm sure you got some good guys at your local, but want nothing to do with the Teamsters.

What happened at GoJets is indefensible. But the 1108 had no part in it. My understanding is the local that was responsible is not even a pilots local.

Also this happened under the previous IBT Airline Division director. The new guy runs a much tighter ship. In fact, from what I understand the Airline Division is the fastest growing division in the union.

 

[Pacific]

Pacific - I learned enough about the IBT when they decided to represent GoJets, knowing they were an alter ego, whipsaw operation. No thanks! I'm sure you got some good guys at your local, but want nothing to do with the Teamsters.

Pacific, it's my impression GoJets was/is an alter ego, whipsaw operation, but that it's the pilots that ask a national union to assist with organizing, then negotiating a contract. How is that to the detriment of the Teamsters?

There are some outstanding people here that work very long hours for everyone's mutual benefit. It is not the Teamsters of the 1930's in any way.

Because the pilots that asked to be represented by the Teamsters were flight managers at TSA, put at the top of the new seniority list by upper management in order to try and legitimize GoJets. One of the ways they did this was seeking representation from the Teamsters, that way it became ALPA vs IBT instead of ALPA vs HK and his minions. The Teamsters decided to represent GoJets anyway, even though they new they were a whipsaw alter-ego, the same kind of thing the IBT claims to fight against. Hypocrisy to say the least. That was enough to sour me on The Teamsters as it proved their morals were corrupted and the revenue stream was more important than the rhetoric they spew.

Like I said in my original post, I'm sure you have some great guys at your local but will never be happy paying dues to the IBT.

 

[flexpilot]

A few of us asked a couple of pages ago about the NMB petition which I don't think got answered. I'm still confused on some stuff.


3 - Assuming 1 and 2 are true, why why not just negotiate some long term fences, you keep your union and we keep our employee contracts and we play in our own sandboxes. Maybe one day things will go bad like you predict and Flex will be the ones asking for a NMB ruling

Let's say the long term fences are negotiated. What's to prevent management from shifting flying to the non-union side? Or the other way around for that matter?

In union speak it's called whipsaw!

I can't believe the FJ pilots are even debating a union. Short term there may be some pain, long term the ex-Flex Jetters will be better off with protection in a union shop. Especially under Ricci!

 

[slowtation capt]

This goes back to the question we have at FJ. What is it we would gain by joining the IBT. You can't just say it protects what you already have. You need to give us something that when it is all added up makes things better for FJ pilots and our families. So far no one can answer this. I am afraid the reason why is you have nothing better to offer.

That is exactly it = It protects what you already have.
Personally I want to protect everything that I have
Being on the 4th owner of Flops, even though the 4th is technically the 1st.
And our 4th CEO or should I say 3 1/2 CEO because KR is the ultimate CEO pulling the strings
And this goes back to even the 1st time KR was around. The BB policy change. Once a week at best, was an email around 5pm on Friday (so everyone was running out the door for the weekend as the email was making it's rounds) was the BB policy change email.
So what you want, everyone gets on here and debates and yells about money, we have the most money, we have the highest salary, blah, blah, blah.
Quality of Life is not just about your salary, it's about time at home, where you live (and not commuting), what schedule you can hold, what vacations you get, the list can go on and on and on and on.
Add all these things up into something that you can justifiably say this is what works for me, and for me and maybe others, I have a lot of that in OUR CONTRACT. A contract for when KR runs away with a big fat check in his pocket, or anything else that could happen for him to not own us anymore. I KNOW that tomorrow morning I can not wake up with a BB email from the new CEO or owner telling me this is how it is going to be now.

I know, I know TWA - KR has not changed a thing at Flex.
That's because he can't change a thing.
KR NEEDS you guys HAPPY.
KR is banking on YOU guys to beat the Union
KR wants to bet the Union
He wants single now, and he wants that because a vote has to occur.
He even said it in an AIN article that he feels the Union wouldn't survive with a single carrier representation vote.

So KR is NOT going to change anything right now, because he NEEDS you guys in his pocket.

But my fear is not right now, it's down the road.
I've seen it from KR back the first time
Scheringa was the ultimate facilitator of getting the Union, but KR was also not saint.

PROTECTION = That's all for me
Read it how you want, it's not protection for my job when I screw up, because I haven't yet, everyone has the potential to screw up. You don't have to be a problem child, etc...It just take 1 thing
So no, it's not protection for my job, because I have never been called into the office for anything.
PROTECTION of MY quality of life from the next change. My quality of life that I take all the positives and negative of our contract - Add it up, and it's what causes me to stay at this job, and want to KEEP the Union. PROTECTION of my salary, schedule, seniority #, sick policy, fatigue policy, travel policy, etc................

 

[John MClain]

I will say it. Our pay raise was a direct result of the contract Netjets got.

Our company gave us just about the same pay to keep the chance of us getting a union dowm.

I don't feel I owe Netjets thanks for their contract, they didn't negotiate it for us. They did it for themselves.

We got pay raises at FJ because of the fear of us getting a union. I believe the fear if a union is stronger than actually having one.

We hope Netjets gets a modest boost during this contract also, because I am sure that once again our wages will follow.

The bad thing about a CBA is you are locked into whatever you sign for the duration of the contract plus 3-4 years of negotiations.

We at FJ want nothing more than for you to get compensation similar to ours in your next contract. You guys deserve to get paid more. The IBT convinced you to sell yourselves short.

Even if you get a contract that has similar pay I don't think you'll find a lot of support from FJ. Maybe if you get a raise that is 20% above ours you could finally show us something that looks attractive.

This goes back to the question we have at FJ. What is it we would gain by joining the IBT. You can't just say it protects what you already have. You need to give us something that when it is all added up makes things better for FJ pilots and our families. So far no one can answer this. I am afraid the reason why is you have nothing better to offer.

Wow. Ok, Where do I start?

First off, TWA 2 ASA FO, James, JM or whatever you'd like to be called, I have been employed at FlexJet almost twice as long as you have and am respectfully requesting that you stop using words like "WE" or "US" or phrases like "All Of Us" while posting to this forum or on Yammer. You sir do not have the right to speak on behalf of every crewmember at FlexJet and do not certainly speak for me. I've been biting my tongue while reading the posts that you and all the rest of the Anti-Union club have been posting on both forums and finally felt obligated to speak up a little.

Unfortunately unlike you, those of us who are openminded and have not yet formulated our decisions or have views that contradict yours, don't have the luxury of posting without fear. We are therefore much more limited about how and what we say, but those of you that are not limited should not be so arrogant as to think they speak for all.

This most recent post of yours speaks volumes, and is a perfect example of the "What's in it for me" mentality that plagues this country as well as the new FlexJet. I say NEW FlexJet because that's exactly what it is. The FlexJet of old no longer exists and if you and the others like you don't accept that fact pretty quickly, I'm afraid we may be in for a very rude awakening.

The question you should be asking is not what would we gain, but what would we lose by not being represented. The answer is EVERYTHING, and it quite honestly amazes me that you and others don't see that. Or perhaps you do see it but choose not to because in reality, one of the possibilities of representation is that it may affect the membership rules at the BATC "good ol boys" club. Anyhow, your thoughts and feelings are just that, not mine or anyone elses thank you very much.

To my fellow crewmembers at Flight Options. This individual and the others like him do not represent the FlexJet group as a whole. There are many out there just like me who are approaching this situation with caution and an open mind. It is a tough road to hoe however due the obvious limitations imposed by both the reality of it and mangagement as well. Communication is the key and they certainly have the upper hand at this time. The open access offer on the 1108 website and the rebuttal to the recent yammer fiasco are exactly the types of things that need to be done. A lot more facts and a lot less rhetoric will go long way towards gaining support from us at FlexJet.

 

[wingsnthings]

You do make some good points, but if they are hell bent on cutting something, they will do it and say tough...grieve it. Ask any of the airline guys that came to the fractionals after they retired. They lost pay, pension, etc. all under a CBA. The CBA only gives the illusion of protection...not true protection in an industry that is cyclical.

 

[John MClain]

You do make some good points, but if they are hell bent on cutting something, they will do it and say tough...grieve it. Ask any of the airline guys that came to the fractionals after they retired. They lost pay, pension, etc. all under a CBA. The CBA only gives the illusion of protection...not true protection in an industry that is cyclical.

All true, I have been represented (Teamsters by the way) in a past life and many grievances were filed. What recourse do we have now or in the past when they've been hell bent on cutting/changing/reviewing something?

Nothing.

 

[dime line]

You do make some good points, but if they are hell bent on cutting something, they will do it and say tough...grieve it. Ask any of the airline guys that came to the fractionals after they retired. They lost pay, pension, etc. all under a CBA. The CBA only gives the illusion of protection...not true protection in an industry that is cyclical.

Very true statement. Like anything, nothing is 100%. When the courts agree to release the company from pensions that is bad all the way around, that is the way business works sometimes. Nobody can stop it, It sucks.

Pay, if the economy doesn't support hi salaries, at least concessions are not received by an employee thru an email.
The way I see our contract at FLOPS is to protect us (workers) from middle management and their punitive games, and senior management from the largest employee groups piggybank.

And like it or not our middle management and senior management will be yours. We have only one left from Travel Air in a management position

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

And like it or not our middle management and senior management will be yours. We have only one left from Travel Air in a management position

Have you guys not been receiving emails about changes in who does what in management?

So far all of your flight operations management now reports to DW.

As we merge the behind the scenes operation we won't need two CPs DOs and you name it. Oh yeah, or DO is also over your operation now. You DO reports to him.

Tell me again whose management team is going to be running things.

As much hatred as you guys express towards you management team you should be very happy with the changes that you aparently haven't been told about by your union.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Wow. Ok, Where do I start?

First off, TWA 2 ASA FO, James, JM or whatever you'd like to be called, I have been employed at FlexJet almost twice as long as you have and am respectfully requesting that you stop using words like "WE" or "US" or phrases like "All Of Us" while posting to this forum or on Yammer. You sir do not have the right to speak on behalf of every crewmember at FlexJet and do not certainly speak for me. I've been biting my tongue while reading the posts that you and all the rest of the Anti-Union club have been posting on both forums and finally felt obligated to speak up a little.

Unfortunately unlike you, those of us who are openminded and have not yet formulated our decisions or have views that contradict yours, don't have the luxury of posting without fear. We are therefore much more limited about how and what we say, but those of you that are not limited should not be so arrogant as to think they speak for all.

This most recent post of yours speaks volumes, and is a perfect example of the "What's in it for me" mentality that plagues this country as well as the new FlexJet. I say NEW FlexJet because that's exactly what it is. The FlexJet of old no longer exists and if you and the others like you don't accept that fact pretty quickly, I'm afraid we may be in for a very rude awakening.

The question you should be asking is not what would we gain, but what would we lose by not being represented. The answer is EVERYTHING, and it quite honestly amazes me that you and others don't see that. Or perhaps you do see it but choose not to because in reality, one of the possibilities of representation is that it may affect the membership rules at the BATC "good ol boys" club. Anyhow, your thoughts and feelings are just that, not mine or anyone elses thank you very much.

To my fellow crewmembers at Flight Options. This individual and the others like him do not represent the FlexJet group as a whole. There are many out there just like me who are approaching this situation with caution and an open mind. It is a tough road to hoe however due the obvious limitations imposed by both the reality of it and mangagement as well. Communication is the key and they certainly have the upper hand at this time. The open access offer on the 1108 website and the rebuttal to the recent yammer fiasco are exactly the types of things that need to be done. A lot more facts and a lot less rhetoric will go long way towards gaining support from us at FlexJet.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion.

I am sure from your position sitting on top of our seniority list the potential of the IBT merging the pilot groups isn't as scarey a thought as it is for the ret of us. Have you been here long enough to have the cushy grandfathered home basing?

Lots of crews at this company talk to me on a very regular basis. The overwhelming consensus is they want nothing to do with a union. Thus is where I get my into from.

I am sure there are pilots here that either want a union or are open to information from the IBT. All I would like is for them to get accurate information so they can make a decision that is best for them and FJ.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Have you guys not been receiving emails about changes in who does what in management?

As a matter of fact, we have not. Which goes to show you exactly what management thinks of its employees. Which I am, first. An employee who works for Flight Options. I happen to be represented by a union, but the union doesn't provide me my paycheck.

Tell me again? What's numero 3 on Kenn's list of The Three Fundamentals? You don't espouse to treat your employees as the foundation of a service company, then proceed to ostracize them.

Remember, all of yours/our managers work for Kenn. NOT for Bombardier.

 

[dime line]

Have you guys not been receiving emails about changes in who does what in management?

So far all of your flight operations management now reports to DW.

As we merge the behind the scenes operation we won't need two CPs DOs and you name it. Oh yeah, or DO is also over your operation now. You DO reports to him.

Tell me again whose management team is going to be running things.

As much hatred as you guys express towards you management team you should be very happy with the changes that you aparently haven't been told about by your union.

Big Fat "Nope" on the emails. And your statement about the union, they don't run the company so they don't have change info. Nice try

 

[slowtation capt]

Wow. Ok, Where do I start?

First off, TWA 2 ASA FO, James, JM or whatever you'd like to be called, I have been employed at FlexJet almost twice as long as you have and am respectfully requesting that you stop using words like "WE" or "US" or phrases like "All Of Us" while posting to this forum or on Yammer. You sir do not have the right to speak on behalf of every crewmember at FlexJet and do not certainly speak for me. I've been biting my tongue while reading the posts that you and all the rest of the Anti-Union club have been posting on both forums and finally felt obligated to speak up a little.

Unfortunately unlike you, those of us who are openminded and have not yet formulated our decisions or have views that contradict yours, don't have the luxury of posting without fear. We are therefore much more limited about how and what we say, but those of you that are not limited should not be so arrogant as to think they speak for all.

This most recent post of yours speaks volumes, and is a perfect example of the "What's in it for me" mentality that plagues this country as well as the new FlexJet. I say NEW FlexJet because that's exactly what it is. The FlexJet of old no longer exists and if you and the others like you don't accept that fact pretty quickly, I'm afraid we may be in for a very rude awakening.

The question you should be asking is not what would we gain, but what would we lose by not being represented. The answer is EVERYTHING, and it quite honestly amazes me that you and others don't see that. Or perhaps you do see it but choose not to because in reality, one of the possibilities of representation is that it may affect the membership rules at the BATC "good ol boys" club. Anyhow, your thoughts and feelings are just that, not mine or anyone elses thank you very much.

To my fellow crewmembers at Flight Options. This individual and the others like him do not represent the FlexJet group as a whole. There are many out there just like me who are approaching this situation with caution and an open mind. It is a tough road to hoe however due the obvious limitations imposed by both the reality of it and mangagement as well. Communication is the key and they certainly have the upper hand at this time. The open access offer on the 1108 website and the rebuttal to the recent yammer fiasco are exactly the types of things that need to be done. A lot more facts and a lot less rhetoric will go long way towards gaining support from us at FlexJet.

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!

Excellent post, and many a thanks to the hardworking, true line pilot of FlexJet that decided to not let a someone working towards a future management position dictate the entire thoughts and feelings of X# of FlexJet pilots with the personal opinions and thoughts.

 

[slowtation capt]

Have you guys not been receiving emails about changes in who does what in management?

Have you not read or listened to what we have been saying?
Company has not communicated with us
Company is not allowing Flops pilots on your precious yammer

Oh yeah, or DO is also over your operation now. You DO reports to him.

Tell that to the FAA

The certificate holder is authorized the following management positions:​

a. The certificate holder uses the following named personnel in the 14 CFR Part 135 management​

positions listed below. All management personnel listed in this operations specification must be direct​

employees of the certificate holder.​

Table 1- Authorized Management Positions and Personnel​

1. The Certificate Holder applies for the Operations in this paragraph.​

2. These Operations Specifications are approved by direction of the Administrator.​

3. I hereby accept and receive the Operations Specifications in this paragraph.​

A006 . Management Personnel HQ Control: 10/19/2009​

HQ Revision: 030​

Part 119 Position Title Name Company Equivalent Position Title​

(Not Applicable) Gross, Bryan Director of Safety / Security​

Chief Inspector Hammond, Mark Chief Inspector​

Chief Pilot Montie, Tim Chief Pilot​

Director of Maintenance Ramey, John Director of Maintenance​

Director of Operations Weaver, James Director of Operations​

U.S. Department​

of Transportation​

Federal Aviation​

Administration​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

Operations Specifications​

Flight Options LLC A006-1​

Amdt. No: 31​

Certificate No.: DJFA206D​

Digitally signed by Thomas G McCormick, Principal Maintenance Inspector (EA23)

 

[John MClain]

The biggest problem for those that want to keep being represented after integration is convincing the fence sitters. The very vocal Yammer posters have already made up their minds, and there is no way you will ever convince them otherwise. They are a lost cause and a waste of time and effort. As I stated in my previous post, they do not represent FlexJet as a whole but they do have their fair share of the group, and certainly have the upper hand when it comes to pleading their case to the masses. What those numbers actually are is anyones guess and probably the biggest reason for the delay in approaching the NMB for single carrier status by either camp. I would certainly think it's a lot less than what most feel it is but it's a hard number to quantify given that it's always the same people posting on Yammer. Out on the road, it's even harder. Casual conversations do come up but nobody will give a very cut and dry answer one way or the other, due to the obvious reasons.

Don't know how the 1108 powers to be can change any of this. The website invitation olive branch has already been tainted on Yammer as some evil and corrupt way for the union to gain access to personal information or gauge support. I know some, including myself are apprehensive about joining for fear of it getting back to RH, JW, DW, or any of the Fleet Chiefs.

Christ, it's even kinda hard posting here given the accusations and rumors of certain management types spending hours trying to figure out who's who. I guess the reality is that eventually we will be merged and no matter which way it goes, no one will be completely happy, someones going to get screwed and both FlexJet and Flight Options will never be the same.

Life is never very good for very long.

Good luck to us all.

 

[slowtation capt]

The website invitation olive branch has already been tainted on Yammer as some evil and corrupt way for the union to gain access to personal information or gauge support.

Of course it has. When one pilot group that happens to be the Unionized pilot group is not allowed access, what do you expect. They are trying to spread FUD, trying to make a name for themselves in the eyes of the company, there are a million reasons why they are on yammer talking about the invitation.
I think everybody knows that Flops pilots are the only employee group with held access to yammer. So if you are going to go on yammer and say something about the Union, which the Union has no idea you are saying, which the Union is unable to defend, then you have only one motivation. How can I make myself look good to management.
If you were a person who did not believe in the Union, and did not want to be part of the website, then you wouldn't be on yammer denouncing it, you wouldn't say a word on yammer. You would just go about your business and not worry about the evil entity getting you name, email address, phone number, mailing address, etc.........

I know some, including myself are apprehensive about joining for fear of it getting back to RH, JW, DW, or any of the Fleet Chiefs.

I understand exactly where you are coming from. It's hard to get past that thought and feeling. However I would say that if anything that was said on the Union website, if that somehow made it to said people (I can't say it wouldn't happen, there are mole's everywhere) and someone from Flex was called on it, worse was disciplined, or terminated. The Union would have it's day with the company over that. Something like that would never be tolerated. Even if we are not merged yet, and even if you haven't made up your mind of Union or Not, if something happened to corrupt the freedom of the Union website, I know the MEC would not stand for that.

 

[chief9404]

You are likely wrong. Once fences are properly negotiated, Flops will probably only see Flexjet's "cast-off's" as they are replaced with newer equipment. After all, Flexjet will be the "Premier Provider" storefront with new equipment, while Flops is the "Value Brand" store front with the used and/or "re-manufactured" stuff. I am not so naive to think anything is beyond an attempt by the DAC management team, but you certainly don't have to be a smug A$$ about it. Grow up.

Cross bidding was announced by Kenn. Since he is the boss I think his rules would apply.

 

[jetwash]

An excellent quote about unions in yesterdays WSJ.

"If you're not at the table, you're probably on the menu."


I would hope that the Flex jet pilots join us at the table.

 

[FR8DOG777]

Welcome back john. Thanks for the support, we could use some more help like yours over here. We know it was a bitter pill to swallow facing the reality of merging with options and emotions sometime run high. By the sounds of your last few posts it looks like you have made the choice to do the best you can considering the options. Its time to take this fight to riccis camp and I am proud to fight side by side with you brother.