FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[gret]

Agreed. but KR does not have the gold and he does not make the rules, that is where the investors come in, if they don't like what he is doing he will be heading down the road and word is that some of the big investors are not to happy with him.

KR can not afford the Flex or the FO crews unhappy as that will kill the business.The business is to make money for the investors and if he fails he is gone. I don't fear KR he has a boss just like we do.

100% correct...we all have bosses and others to consider.

 

[The Architect]

Separate Entities?

The companies are in separate entities owned by the investors with Directional as the manager.

Regarding Jet Solutions, the FAA has bought it for years...don't agree with it and don't understand how the Dallas FSDO let it continue, but that's the way it has been.

Holes in the regulations, and even the labor contract, big enough to drive a Peterbilt thru.

How would a person conclude they "are IN separate entities"?

Are they not both under the umbrella of Epic Aero Holdings? Is Epic not the umbrella over One Sky? Is One Sky not the umbrella over Flexjet, LLC and Flight Options, LLC?

Well?

The information available did not indicate your "manager" was even at the table during merger discussions. But, One Sky was.


That "Peterbilt" must be the size of an ameba.

 

[The Architect]

Place your Bets!

I agree that there is no "gray" area.

The point is if KR is as bad as noted here than he could choose to discard the CBA and do what he wants to. His actions will be challenged in court by the IBT and the IBT WILL win but at what price? KR will decide if he wants to pay the price? It could be a ploy to tie up contract negotiations? Who knows what he will do.

Our last contract took 6 years to negotiate and we started 1 year before it was due. The company would violate the contract and then it would be grieved and as all of you know very grievance must be resolved before a new contract. I guess my point is watch for him to drag and drag his feet and to slow negotiations down for as long as he can.

2018 is my bet on a new contact for you guys $100 any takers? According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics the time line for negotiations vary from 16.5 to 72.1 months (Airlines).

Note sure who "our" is?

Place your bets!

Flight Options Pilots CBA:

"If Pilots of the acquired carrier are hired by the Company, the Agreement shall be modified in those respects necessary to permit the integration through negotiations between the surviving air carrier and the representative of the consolidated, post-merger Pilot craft or class. If a modified agreement is not executed within nine months from the date a final and binding integrated Pilot Seniority List is issued, the parties shall submit outstanding issues to binding interest arbitration."

 

[gret]

How would a person conclude they "are IN separate entities"?

Are they not both under the umbrella of Epic Aero Holdings? Is Epic not the umbrella over One Sky? Is One Sky not the umbrella over Flexjet, LLC and Flight Options, LLC?

Well?

The information available did not indicate your "manager" was even at the table during merger discussions. But, One Sky was.


That "Peterbilt" must be the size of an ameba.

Think what you will..perhaps you know more about the matter.

 

[Praetorian]

Think what you will..perhaps you know more about the matter.

Perhaps? I think it's cristal clear he does. He's obviously a well informed union member, which makes him part of one of the most powerful forces in the world

But you knew that. Didn't you?

 

[johnsonrod]

CL300 in Flight Options colors

Friend of mine just sent me this link to the FLOPS website. What do you think about the CL300 in Flight Options colors:

http://www.flightoptions.com/fleet/challenger-300.html

It says that the CL300 will be available in the fall of 2014....

 

[dashtrasher]

What do you think about the CL300 in Flight Options [/QUOTE]

Doesn't really look like Flight Options colors to me, looks more like XOJet colors. Just the angle I guess..

 

[Photoflight]

We've been told that the flying will be done by current flexjet pilots..........


It says on the FO site that the flying will be done by Jet Solutions LLC.

I'd guess that current Options owners will be given an easy release from their contract at FOs if they sign up for a different program through Jet Solutions.


I'm also guessing that's what some of this "fence agreement" discussion is about.

 

[t-bone]

What do you think about the CL300 in Flight Options

Doesn't really look like Flight Options colors to me, looks more like XOJet colors. Just the angle I guess..[/QUOTE]

Lol...until you see the stripes on both engine nacelles.

 

[The Architect]

Obvious? Here's Obvious.

Perhaps? I think it's cristal clear he does. He's obviously a well informed union member, which makes him part of one of the most powerful forces in the world

But you knew that. Didn't you?

Isn't it amazing how quickly individuals want to classify others, not really knowing where one stands on an issue.

Every pilot in each of these group is entitled to choose. As it should be.

Be reminded though.
The parties that started Corporate Wings started Flight Options.
The parties that started Flight Options started DAC.
The parties that started DAC were party to the Raytheon Travel Air acquisition which, in turn, was merged with Flight Options.
Those same parties sold Flight Options only later to partner with HIG to, well, acquire Flight Options.
Those same parties later bought out HIG. Just to go full circle.

During that debacle, the pilots grew to nearly 1000 strong. Yes, 1000 pilots and over 200 aircraft. The great majority of those pilot voted for representation AFTER living under the reign of those parties through prosperous and rough economic times. Nearly 500 of those SAME pilots remain.

Their must be reason those pilots made the choice for representation.

So, now those same parties have acquired Flexjet, LLC. They will run it. They will determine the work rules and conditions of employment for that pilot group. And each one of those pilots will decide whether they want representation.

Perhaps the hardest realization, the most difficult thing to come to terms with for each of those pilots, is that the parties that owned them are gone. No more. New executives are driving that ship. Like it or not.

Now, don't be fooled. The ship is run from the top down.

Could a such a large group of individuals, in the same profession, under the rules and policies of that leadership for so many years, simply be wrong about voting for representation?

So each pilot should ask themselves, if so many pilots voted for representation at Flight Options under the leadership of these parties, the same parties that now have control of my employment, should I not seriously consider whether there are really any downsides of having representation?

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Architect. You forgot to mention Options had a pilot representative prior to the contract. It was the in-house committee and the company didn't make one improvement that they recommended.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Perhaps the hardest realization, the most difficult thing to come to terms with for each of those pilots, is that the parties that owned them are gone. No more. New executives are driving that ship. Like it or not.

Now, don't be fooled. The ship is run from the top down.

Could a such a large group of individuals, in the same profession, under the rules and policies of that leadership for so many years, simply be wrong about voting for representation?

So each pilot should ask themselves, if so many pilots voted for representation at Flight Options under the leadership of these parties, the same parties that now have control of my employment, should I not seriously consider whether there are really any downsides of having representation?

I get and respect that things were bad enough at options years ago for you to unionize. But, so far things are fine at flex. No changes to pay/schedules/benefits. Sure they can change it, but I think the consensus is we will wait until they do make drastic changes before we beat the drum to unionize. So far we have not seen any reason here to unionize. Voting in the union will almost surely mean loss of pay/schedule/benefits for the flex people right? how can we be sure we'd get at least what we have now?

 

[The Architect]

Different Measures.

I get and respect that things were bad enough at options years ago for you to unionize. But, so far things are fine at flex. No changes to pay/schedules/benefits. Sure they can change it, but I think the consensus is we will wait until they do make drastic changes before we beat the drum to unionize. So far we have not seen any reason here to unionize. Voting in the union will almost surely mean loss of pay/schedule/benefits for the flex people right? how can we be sure we'd get at least what we have now?

Just because a group unionizes doesn't mean things got better with regard to who management is and how they would like to manage. It simply means that protections are in place because of the unionization and now unilateral control and at will employment no longer exist. In turn, this prevents unfear treatment and discipline without just cause. If the union was removed at Flight Options tomorrow, things would be bad enough to push for another union movement in very short time.

Different individuals measure certain amounts of gains and loses on different scales. One pilot may be willing to accept slightly lower compensation for a slightly better schedule. Or one pilot may be willing to give up a long term benefit for more money now. No set standard exists across the board.

However, why would the assumption be a loss of pay/schedule/benefits "surely" comes with a union. That's exactly the combination of things that unions exist to improve. Aren't those the gains that occur after an employee group achieves union representation?

Perhaps, naysayers are providers of that information. If so, one has to ask why they would spread such misinformation? Is it for personal gain? Is it because they are management, so union representation is not to their advantage?

"How can we be sure we'd get at least what we have now?" With regard to what? What is the measure? Some things a pilot group does get: Scope Protection, Seniority based compensation, schedules, filling of vacancies, vacation, etc. These are some of the CONTRACTUAL items. And the Just Cause Provision. The provision that says, "you can't discipline me without just cause." Contractual due to a collective bargaining agreement under the RLA.

 

[Club ORD FO]

However, why would the assumption be a loss of pay/schedule/benefits "surely" comes with a union. That's exactly the combination of things that unions exist to improve. Aren't those the gains that occur after an employee group achieves union representation?

Well to be blunt I don't think you guys have a very good contract now. I have my doubts about your negotiating committee being able to move your paycales up to at least what we have now.

And yeah I get that a contract gets you representation and scope and all that, but so far at flex we upgrade by seniority, we lay off by seniority, and I can't think of anyone who was fired who didn't deserve it. In fact I can think of multiple people who I thought were given more chances than they deserve. And they certainly were not in the good ol' boys club. So there is not a huge need for those types of protections. Not enough to warrant the risk of losing pay and benefits.

 

[gret]

Well to be blunt I don't think you guys have a very good contract now. I have my doubts about your negotiating committee being able to move your paycales up to at least what we have now.

And yeah I get that a contract gets you representation and scope and all that, but so far at flex we upgrade by seniority, we lay off by seniority, and I can't think of anyone who was fired who didn't deserve it. In fact I can think of multiple people who I thought were given more chances than they deserve. And they certainly were not in the good ol' boys club. So there is not a huge need for those types of protections. Not enough to warrant the risk of losing pay and benefits.

Couldn't have said it better...

...while reading the post I was thinking this is pretty utopian stuff and where the heck was the union the last time around...oh...that's right... they were the ones that did the negotiating on behalf of the group. The FLOPS pilots have a lot to be cranky about...but it shouldn't be with the company, it's their own union. The members should ask for a refund or sue 'em for malpractice.

Trying to sell the benefits of a union in this case is pure folly as you have one and you're miserable....the other group doesn't and they sound happy as hell.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Actually the negotiating committee is pilots so... the teamsters themselves would not have been involved much, just provided lawyers and support. But the pilots were at the negating table. Probably part of the reason the contract turned out the way it did. Company lawyers vs pilots. hmmm... Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but that's my understanding of how it works

 

[The Architect]

Committee Members.

Well to be blunt I don't think you guys have a very good contract now. I have my doubts about your negotiating committee being able to move your paycales up to at least what we have now.

And yeah I get that a contract gets you representation and scope and all that, but so far at flex we upgrade by seniority, we lay off by seniority, and I can't think of anyone who was fired who didn't deserve it. In fact I can think of multiple people who I thought were given more chances than they deserve. And they certainly were not in the good ol' boys club. So there is not a huge need for those types of protections. Not enough to warrant the risk of losing pay and benefits.

That would be the Flexjet and Flight Options Pilot groups MERGED negotiating committee. A new CBA would be negotiated with members from the Flexjet and Flight Options pre-merger pilot groups. A new CBA covering the merged represented pilots would be negotiated. Not a modification to the Flight Options existing CBA.

As a matter of fact, Flexjet pilots may not have to wait until then to be a member of a committee. Additional individuals may have interest in joining the FJOC.

 

[The Architect]

Correction

Actually the negotiating committee is pilots so... the teamsters themselves would not have been involved much, just provided lawyers and support. But the pilots were at the negating table. Probably part of the reason the contract turned out the way it did. Company lawyers vs pilots. hmmm... Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but that's my understanding of how it works

The Flight Options CBA negotiations consisted of company representatives and union representative. Company representatives were senior management, attorneys and senior executives. Union representative were pilots, advisors and attorneys. Those pilots...they were the representatives of the "union." Pilots are the Union. And once a tentative agreement was reached, EVERY pilot (active and furloughed) voted on it. Once ratified, it became the CBA.

 

[slowtation capt]

BTW, you VP of the union (not sure he correct title) just accosted one if our 300 FOs. Told him the list was done and it is DOH. All the junior FJ folks are getting furloughed so the FO pilots can take their jobs.

I guess they need another month to work on this list, because that's what the company delayed the meetings in CGF for.

Wonder what kind of rush they are in that another month will help them with

 

[dime line]

Well to be blunt I don't think you guys have a very good contract now. I have my doubts about your negotiating committee being able to move your paycales up to at least what we have now.

And yeah I get that a contract gets you representation and scope and all that, but so far at flex we upgrade by seniority, we lay off by seniority, and I can't think of anyone who was fired who didn't deserve it. In fact I can think of multiple people who I thought were given more chances than they deserve. And they certainly were not in the good ol' boys club. So there is not a huge need for those types of protections. Not enough to warrant the risk of losing pay and benefits.

I guess you don't remember a few years back when FLEX fired a bunch out of seniority. It happened. And your comment about "deserving to be fired", somebody might deserve to be fired as long as its not you. FLOPS fired 70 and FLEX fired a few a while back