First year pay at Spirit

[PCL_128]

It is time to quit talking about how you "split the pie". It is time to define how big the pie is. Seems to me that the Spirit pilots had all of the leverage that they needed......

It seems to me that the SPA MEC and NC determined that they had reached the limit of the pie, otherwise they wouldn't have come to a TA.

PCL-
why not average out the 1st 3-5 years of FO pay - as the previous poster said- think time value of money-

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that, but you'd find significant resistance from the pilots on 2nd and 3rd year pay who would take the hit to subsidize the higher 1st year pay. Also, during the following bargaining cycle, management will try to take back that higher 1st year pay, using the same arguments that they make now (probation, training costs, etc.), and they won't want to give you the higher 2nd and 3rd year pay back. It all would really depend upon an industry pattern being set. If the other carriers don't follow you during that bargaining cycle, then you'll be left holding the bag when your contract is amendable again. But if everyone follows suit, then a pattern will be set, and it will be far more difficult for management to undo the change during the next bargaining cycle.

 

[waveflyer]

1st grandfather- rates would apply to current new hires-
2nd- this would have to be a platform pushed and supported by National- set it as a priority- don't force it on any MEC but win their minds on the argument-
Spirit doing it alone wouldn't have a great effect on the industry-

At the national level- probation and training costs are a bullsh!t argument-
pilots aren't being hired at spirit from chieftains anymore- the vast majority at that level have significant 121 jet experience that doesn't deserve that argument even being entertained

 

[flygirlqt]

ALPA is in a full scale managing expectations mode.

 

[jonjuan]

It seems to me that the SPA MEC and NC determined that they had reached the limit of the pie, otherwise they wouldn't have come to a TA.



I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that, but you'd find significant resistance from the pilots on 2nd and 3rd year pay who would take the hit to subsidize the higher 1st year pay. Also, during the following bargaining cycle, management will try to take back that higher 1st year pay, using the same arguments that they make now (probation, training costs, etc.), and they won't want to give you the higher 2nd and 3rd year pay back. It all would really depend upon an industry pattern being set. If the other carriers don't follow you during that bargaining cycle, then you'll be left holding the bag when your contract is amendable again. But if everyone follows suit, then a pattern will be set, and it will be far more difficult for management to undo the change during the next bargaining cycle.

We're now Paying For Training? I thought you have said all along that there's no way management will let the ship sink while pilots are out on strike-especially a company making $100MM/year. There's simply too much money they will lose (not to mention all the lawsuits brought to bear by the shareholders who will lose everything in a bankruptcy.) Are you telling us that $20/hour pay raise for new hires (meaning $58/hour) will significantly increase "the pie?" That's approximately $15K a year/new hire. If Spirit hires 50/year, that's $700K-a drop in the bucket. When management did say OK to the additional $700K after 2 more days of striking, ALPA would simply say "Well, first year pay IS a right of passage in this industry, so we'll take that money and give it to the the people who can benefit the most, those at the top of the seniority list."

 

[PCL_128]

We're now Paying For Training?

Not so much the training, but management argues that a first year pilot is not producing revenue for the company for the first quarter of the year, because he's in the school house rather than flying trips. So, the way they look at it, they aren't getting a full year's work out of you, but they have to pay you for a full year's work. Of course, I would argue that that's just the cost of doing business, but the reality is that the first pilot group to try to change it is going to have to give up some bargaining capital to do so, and most pilots aren't willing to do that.

 

[waveflyer]

Ahh- spelling out the leadership failures of ALPA national very clearly- why have ALPA national if they can't provide some sense of the bigger picture?

They'd get it back in the increased leverage in the long run

 

[atldc9]

First year pay is an embarrassment to the profession. We expect professionalism, but offer poverty wages with excuses. These aren't entry level positions. We demand education, licenses and years of experience, and the pay should reflect those requirements.

Do you want to work with the FO who is the best pilot, or the one who can afford to live on first year wages?

 

[dicko]

Not so much the training, but management argues that a first year pilot is not producing revenue for the company for the first quarter of the year, because he's in the school house rather than flying trips. So, the way they look at it, they aren't getting a full year's work out of you, but they have to pay you for a full year's work. Of course, I would argue that that's just the cost of doing business, but the reality is that the first pilot group to try to change it is going to have to give up some bargaining capital to do so, and most pilots aren't willing to do that.

PCL,

The concept of "have to give up some bargaining capital to do so" is Pavlovian. We are negotiating for an industry standard that is based upon concessionary contracts. If we were improving on a good thing then I would understand. We are not.

Your peers know who you are. It's disturbing for many of us to read this kind of attitude. The blind support of any ALPA contract is a little worrying given the circumstances. If you know what i mean ...

The Spirit pilots showed 'testes gigantus'. I hope their MEC showed the same.

 

[PCL_128]

The concept of "have to give up some bargaining capital to do so" is Pavlovian. We are negotiating for an industry standard that is based upon concessionary contracts. If we were improving on a good thing then I would understand. We are not.

I agree with what you're saying, but sadly, the NMB usually doesn't. They just compare current industry standards, and give little credence to the idea that we've given up so much since 9/11. It's a bit ridiculous, but as long as we have to cater to the NMB, we don't have a lot of choice.

The blind support of any ALPA contract is a little worrying given the circumstances.

I opposed both the Mesa and PCL TAs. I don't "blindly support" anything. And like I said on a different thread, I would vote against the Spirit TA if it were at AirTran. The Spirit pilots need to decide what's best for them, however.

The Spirit pilots showed 'testes gigantus'. I hope their MEC showed the same.

Since the MEC were the ones that called the strike in the first place, I think they've already shown their "testes gigantus."

 

[dicko]

I agree with what you're saying, but sadly, the NMB usually doesn't. They just compare current industry standards, and give little credence to the idea that we've given up so much since 9/11. It's a bit ridiculous, but as long as we have to cater to the NMB, we don't have a lot of choice.

The Pilots have been released. No airplanes move. Shareholders and CEO's stock/investment crashes. The NMB has no say after the parties are released and the White House is unlikely to intervene.

The company will still be profitable if all of the Unions contract requests are met.

Give and take in this situation is like giving the guys at Nuremberg a sentence of '5 to 10 with good behavior'.

 

[PCL_128]

The Pilots have been released. No airplanes move. Shareholders and CEO's stock/investment crashes. The NMB has no say after the parties are released and the White House is unlikely to intervene.

I was talking about waveflyer's overall concept, which he wants to apply industry-wide, not just at Spirit.

 

[AC560]

Do you want to work with the FO who is the best pilot, or the one who can afford to live on first year wages?

Skills play no role in a seniority based system. The worst F/O or the best F/O in the world get the same pay, job security, and promotion opportunities.

 

[atldc9]

Skills play no role in a seniority based system. The worst F/O or the best F/O in the world get the same pay, job security, and promotion opportunities.

True, but I was referencing the application and hiring process.

 

[bubbers44]

Our hiring process hired 8 very qualified jet captains in our class at 750 per month and we were very happy to have the job. Now we are all retired and enjoying a lifestyle that we earned by starting out with that salary. You have to think past that first year. Probation is the indicator of how much you want the job. If you can't handle the first year you probably won't be that dedicated to your job either. Put the pay where you are going to be, not the first year.

 

[waveflyer]

Our hiring process hired 8 very qualified jet captains in our class at 750 per month and we were very happy to have the job. Now we are all retired and enjoying a lifestyle that we earned by starting out with that salary. You have to think past that first year. Probation is the indicator of how much you want the job. If you can't handle the first year you probably won't be that dedicated to your job either. Put the pay where you are going to be, not the first year.

It's a different career now that deregulation effects have come full circle- if you retire w/ one airline you are very lucky-
and I can't imagine why someone would argue FOR 1st year pay- but please look at how it steals leverage from all of us- we must be able to change companies easier- NSL isn't an option at this time- (though I would recommend it could be done if there were an ounce of leadership at ALPA)

this is the only career where we start completely over at the bottom at poverty wages just for changing companies- it's capitalistic labor in reverse- our seniority will start over with the current system- but the poverty part is inexcusable- the stress we've created in this career is inexcusable-
We will get paid at the point we're willing to take a stand- that stand is made infinitely harder by the concept of 1st year pay-

If we knew that the next job at least paid a livable wage- we'd all be more willing to strike -