First year pay at Spirit

[Dan Roman]

I'm a little blown away at the vehement attack on the N/C for the first year pay in the TA. First off, do you want them fighting for more first year and get a little less elsewhere in the contract? That's how it works, you fight for how much you think you can get and than you have to decide how it is divided up throughout the contract, pay, work rules etc.
First year pay sucks, always has and always will, because nobody wants to pay more first year and pay less for the rest of your career. Right wrong or indifferent, that's the way our industry is.
I also saw people complaining about ALPA. ALPA is the vehicle, it's up to the drivers what they do with it, I'm certain these guys did the best they could under the circumstances, I wasn't there, so all I can say is good job and I'm sure you got a lot more than management wanted to give under very tough circumstances. The angry haters in the pilot group are going to monday morning quarterback you to death. Only they had the big picture of how long the pilot resolve could be counted on and how much they could push management. Way more complex than most realize.
I say good job balancing peoples lives with the reality of your situation.
Finally, the comments made included "Hawaiian got a good contract, how come you couldn't do that?!" Well yes we did, it took many contract negotiations, we didn't do it in one contract. BTW, HAL's first year is $36, Spirit's is 40-44.

 

[MDP727]

well said

 

[Raoul Duke]

exactly, quit bitching about first year pay - that is not the hill to die on.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

Are you guys kidding me? At CAL newhire pay and lack of benefits are the biggest disgrace in a disgraceful contract. 1/3 of our pilot group has suffered under this in the last 5 years and it will be rectified in a major way. SWA, FDX, JBLU, ATN, World, and even bankrupt DAL can pay their pilots a living wage first year. Why shouldn't profitable Spirit? If previous SPA newhire pay was less and the $38.50 was a raise, it would be somewhat tolerable. But the fact that it is a cut, with no raise over at least 8 years with Obamaflation on the way, is ridiculous!

The sad part is, with the amount senior of FOs at Eagle, Comair, etc. with no chance of upgrade they will have no problem filling classes. Maybe that was the plan all along, hire FOs with no turbine PIC so they will be slaves to the company and not be willing to strike in the future since they will have nowhere else to go. Mgt wins again! :angryfire

 

[PCL_128]

I'm a little blown away at the vehement attack on the N/C for the first year pay in the TA. First off, do you want them fighting for more first year and get a little less elsewhere in the contract? That's how it works, you fight for how much you think you can get and than you have to decide how it is divided up throughout the contract, pay, work rules etc.
First year pay sucks, always has and always will, because nobody wants to pay more first year and pay less for the rest of your career. Right wrong or indifferent, that's the way our industry is.
I also saw people complaining about ALPA. ALPA is the vehicle, it's up to the drivers what they do with it, I'm certain these guys did the best they could under the circumstances, I wasn't there, so all I can say is good job and I'm sure you got a lot more than management wanted to give under very tough circumstances. The angry haters in the pilot group are going to monday morning quarterback you to death. Only they had the big picture of how long the pilot resolve could be counted on and how much they could push management. Way more complex than most realize.
I say good job balancing peoples lives with the reality of your situation.
Finally, the comments made included "Hawaiian got a good contract, how come you couldn't do that?!" Well yes we did, it took many contract negotiations, we didn't do it in one contract. BTW, HAL's first year is $36, Spirit's is 40-44.

Exactly right. Rare to see such common sense and coherence from a flightinfo poster.

 

[waveflyer]

Proves those at the top of our "union" are dumb-

something must be done to correct the seniority 'problem'-
we will not always have a favorable NMB- when we don't and R's don't let us go through the process- mgmt uses our seniority and 1st year pay against us-
PCL- you should know better.
It absolutely steals leverage from the entire industry- but ALPA leadership can't lead and MECs can't see past their own situation.

It's one main reason mgmt has had it all over us- they understand systemic issues- we don't.

 

[PCL_128]

waveflyer, what is the solution in your mind? The pot of money is now established. If the SPA MEC and NC felt that they could extract more money from the company, then I'm sure they would still be at the bargaining table. The fact that they got a TA indicates that they think they've reached the amount of money that they're going to be able to achieve in this bargaining cycle. So, that means that if you want the first year rate to come up, you're going to have to move the money from somewhere else. Do you want to move the money from the higher longevity steps? Do you want to get rid of the 1% increase to the 401k match? Do you want to increase the health care premiums some more? From where are you going to move the money?

You and I have always debated this, but you know my position: first year pay should be a number that a pilot can live on for a year, but it shouldn't be a major bargaining goal to increase it, and second year pay should be a big jump to bring you up to the real pay rates. I don't believe in wasting a big chunk of bargaining leverage on first year rates. But I'm curious what you think would be a wise move in this case.

 

[Ex737Driver]

Proves those at the top of our "union" are dumb-

something must be done to correct the seniority 'problem'-
we will not always have a favorable NMB- when we don't and R's don't let us go through the process- mgmt uses our seniority and 1st year pay against us-
PCL- you should know better.
It absolutely steals leverage from the entire industry- but ALPA leadership can't lead and MECs can't see past their own situation.

It's one main reason mgmt has had it all over us- they understand systemic issues- we don't.

What seniority problem? Not following you here.

 

[AnimalTale]

and even bankrupt DAL can pay their pilots a living wage first year.

Are you sure DAL is in Bankruptcy?????


CYA

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

first year pay should be a number that a pilot can live on for a year, but it shouldn't be a major bargaining goal to increase it, and second year pay should be a big jump to bring you up to the real pay rates. I don't believe in wasting a big chunk of bargaining leverage on first year rates. But I'm curious what you think would be a wise move in this case.

Yeah, real pay rates for real pilots (not those pesky new-hire interns!).

New hires: It's what's for dinner.

 

[kf4amu]

The stock market earns an average return of 10 percent over any 20 year period in history.

Taking this into account, on AVERAGE, in 7 years an investment will double at 10 percent.

Any increase in first year pay intelligently invested will double in 7 years (on average).

So in theory, a 10 dollar/hr increase in first year payrates equals a 20 dollar/hr increase in year 7 payrates, if the pilot puts the extra in an index fund.

I'll take early money over later money any day.

 

[waveflyer]

What seniority problem? Not following you here.

Mgmt knows that we would rather cut off our left ball than start over at the bottom somewhere else. The choice to leave a carrier (or strike and risk weakening your company) is already tough enough- the nail that seals that coffin is 1st year pay being in the gutter at virtually every next job-

And what is it's purpose?
Does anyone ever go through 1st year pay only once anymore- I'm not unusual and I've gone through it 5 times between regionals and commuters. You are very lucky if you only go through it once at the major/national level.

What I am concerned about is how it restricts movement between carriers- if you feel like you're on a sinking ship and are willing to take the hit in seniority to change companies- the outdated/pilot induced 1st year pay makes it almost impossible. And financially irresponsible in almost every case- now mgmt uses that against knowing that we won't leave and if they have a mgmt favorable nmb- game over.

Two more points- I know that only a very small % of legacy pilots will leave and make a lateral move- but don't minimize what even 5-10% can have on mgmt's willingness to negotiate- the free market is supposed to work for us- not just against us.

2nd think about the nature of Spirit airlines- the lifers may not care but there will always be pilots who use Spirit (and similar sized niche airlines) as a stepping stone and stay a relatively short while- this means a certain amount of turnover- and a certain percentage of pilots always on 1st year pay decreasing the overall compensation to the pilot group-

 

[waveflyer]

The stock market earns an average return of 10 percent over any 20 year period in history.

Taking this into account, on AVERAGE, in 7 years an investment will double at 10 percent.

Any increase in first year pay intelligently invested will double in 7 years (on average).

So in theory, a 10 dollar/hr increase in first year payrates equals a 20 dollar/hr increase in year 7 payrates, if the pilot puts the extra in an index fund.

I'll take early money over later money any day.

Thank you!
Well said !

 

[Sandhawk]

I'm a little blown away at the vehement attack on the N/C for the first year pay in the TA. First off, do you want them fighting for more first year and get a little less elsewhere in the contract? That's how it works, you fight for how much you think you can get and than you have to decide how it is divided up throughout the contract, pay, work rules etc.
First year pay sucks, always has and always will, because nobody wants to pay more first year and pay less for the rest of your career. Right wrong or indifferent, that's the way our industry is.

It is time to quit talking about how you "split the pie". It is time to define how big the pie is. Seems to me that the Spirit pilots had all of the leverage that they needed......

As ALPA says "we'll get 'em next time"......

 

[waveflyer]

PCL-
why not average out the 1st 3-5 years of FO pay - as the previous poster said- think time value of money-
I'd gladly forego any raises for 3-5 years to avoid the crunch of 1st year pay-
this can be done in a no cost way- we just don't even consider it- the old "well I had to do it(!)" w/ no thought to how it affects our industry nationwide...

we've simply taken this 1st year pay standard as a fact of airline life w/o ever questioning it. It's dumb. No personal attacks- there's just no other word for it.

 

[PCL_128]

It is time to quit talking about how you "split the pie". It is time to define how big the pie is. Seems to me that the Spirit pilots had all of the leverage that they needed......

It seems to me that the SPA MEC and NC determined that they had reached the limit of the pie, otherwise they wouldn't have come to a TA.

PCL-
why not average out the 1st 3-5 years of FO pay - as the previous poster said- think time value of money-

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that, but you'd find significant resistance from the pilots on 2nd and 3rd year pay who would take the hit to subsidize the higher 1st year pay. Also, during the following bargaining cycle, management will try to take back that higher 1st year pay, using the same arguments that they make now (probation, training costs, etc.), and they won't want to give you the higher 2nd and 3rd year pay back. It all would really depend upon an industry pattern being set. If the other carriers don't follow you during that bargaining cycle, then you'll be left holding the bag when your contract is amendable again. But if everyone follows suit, then a pattern will be set, and it will be far more difficult for management to undo the change during the next bargaining cycle.

 

[waveflyer]

1st grandfather- rates would apply to current new hires-
2nd- this would have to be a platform pushed and supported by National- set it as a priority- don't force it on any MEC but win their minds on the argument-
Spirit doing it alone wouldn't have a great effect on the industry-

At the national level- probation and training costs are a bullsh!t argument-
pilots aren't being hired at spirit from chieftains anymore- the vast majority at that level have significant 121 jet experience that doesn't deserve that argument even being entertained

 

[flygirlqt]

ALPA is in a full scale managing expectations mode.

 

[jonjuan]

It seems to me that the SPA MEC and NC determined that they had reached the limit of the pie, otherwise they wouldn't have come to a TA.



I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that, but you'd find significant resistance from the pilots on 2nd and 3rd year pay who would take the hit to subsidize the higher 1st year pay. Also, during the following bargaining cycle, management will try to take back that higher 1st year pay, using the same arguments that they make now (probation, training costs, etc.), and they won't want to give you the higher 2nd and 3rd year pay back. It all would really depend upon an industry pattern being set. If the other carriers don't follow you during that bargaining cycle, then you'll be left holding the bag when your contract is amendable again. But if everyone follows suit, then a pattern will be set, and it will be far more difficult for management to undo the change during the next bargaining cycle.

We're now Paying For Training? I thought you have said all along that there's no way management will let the ship sink while pilots are out on strike-especially a company making $100MM/year. There's simply too much money they will lose (not to mention all the lawsuits brought to bear by the shareholders who will lose everything in a bankruptcy.) Are you telling us that $20/hour pay raise for new hires (meaning $58/hour) will significantly increase "the pie?" That's approximately $15K a year/new hire. If Spirit hires 50/year, that's $700K-a drop in the bucket. When management did say OK to the additional $700K after 2 more days of striking, ALPA would simply say "Well, first year pay IS a right of passage in this industry, so we'll take that money and give it to the the people who can benefit the most, those at the top of the seniority list."

 

[PCL_128]

We're now Paying For Training?

Not so much the training, but management argues that a first year pilot is not producing revenue for the company for the first quarter of the year, because he's in the school house rather than flying trips. So, the way they look at it, they aren't getting a full year's work out of you, but they have to pay you for a full year's work. Of course, I would argue that that's just the cost of doing business, but the reality is that the first pilot group to try to change it is going to have to give up some bargaining capital to do so, and most pilots aren't willing to do that.

 

[waveflyer]

Ahh- spelling out the leadership failures of ALPA national very clearly- why have ALPA national if they can't provide some sense of the bigger picture?

They'd get it back in the increased leverage in the long run

 

[atldc9]

First year pay is an embarrassment to the profession. We expect professionalism, but offer poverty wages with excuses. These aren't entry level positions. We demand education, licenses and years of experience, and the pay should reflect those requirements.

Do you want to work with the FO who is the best pilot, or the one who can afford to live on first year wages?

 

[dicko]

Not so much the training, but management argues that a first year pilot is not producing revenue for the company for the first quarter of the year, because he's in the school house rather than flying trips. So, the way they look at it, they aren't getting a full year's work out of you, but they have to pay you for a full year's work. Of course, I would argue that that's just the cost of doing business, but the reality is that the first pilot group to try to change it is going to have to give up some bargaining capital to do so, and most pilots aren't willing to do that.

PCL,

The concept of "have to give up some bargaining capital to do so" is Pavlovian. We are negotiating for an industry standard that is based upon concessionary contracts. If we were improving on a good thing then I would understand. We are not.

Your peers know who you are. It's disturbing for many of us to read this kind of attitude. The blind support of any ALPA contract is a little worrying given the circumstances. If you know what i mean ...

The Spirit pilots showed 'testes gigantus'. I hope their MEC showed the same.

 

[PCL_128]

The concept of "have to give up some bargaining capital to do so" is Pavlovian. We are negotiating for an industry standard that is based upon concessionary contracts. If we were improving on a good thing then I would understand. We are not.

I agree with what you're saying, but sadly, the NMB usually doesn't. They just compare current industry standards, and give little credence to the idea that we've given up so much since 9/11. It's a bit ridiculous, but as long as we have to cater to the NMB, we don't have a lot of choice.

The blind support of any ALPA contract is a little worrying given the circumstances.

I opposed both the Mesa and PCL TAs. I don't "blindly support" anything. And like I said on a different thread, I would vote against the Spirit TA if it were at AirTran. The Spirit pilots need to decide what's best for them, however.

The Spirit pilots showed 'testes gigantus'. I hope their MEC showed the same.

Since the MEC were the ones that called the strike in the first place, I think they've already shown their "testes gigantus."

 

[dicko]

I agree with what you're saying, but sadly, the NMB usually doesn't. They just compare current industry standards, and give little credence to the idea that we've given up so much since 9/11. It's a bit ridiculous, but as long as we have to cater to the NMB, we don't have a lot of choice.

The Pilots have been released. No airplanes move. Shareholders and CEO's stock/investment crashes. The NMB has no say after the parties are released and the White House is unlikely to intervene.

The company will still be profitable if all of the Unions contract requests are met.

Give and take in this situation is like giving the guys at Nuremberg a sentence of '5 to 10 with good behavior'.

 

[PCL_128]

The Pilots have been released. No airplanes move. Shareholders and CEO's stock/investment crashes. The NMB has no say after the parties are released and the White House is unlikely to intervene.

I was talking about waveflyer's overall concept, which he wants to apply industry-wide, not just at Spirit.

 

[AC560]

Do you want to work with the FO who is the best pilot, or the one who can afford to live on first year wages?

Skills play no role in a seniority based system. The worst F/O or the best F/O in the world get the same pay, job security, and promotion opportunities.

 

[atldc9]

Skills play no role in a seniority based system. The worst F/O or the best F/O in the world get the same pay, job security, and promotion opportunities.

True, but I was referencing the application and hiring process.

 

[bubbers44]

Our hiring process hired 8 very qualified jet captains in our class at 750 per month and we were very happy to have the job. Now we are all retired and enjoying a lifestyle that we earned by starting out with that salary. You have to think past that first year. Probation is the indicator of how much you want the job. If you can't handle the first year you probably won't be that dedicated to your job either. Put the pay where you are going to be, not the first year.

 

[waveflyer]

Our hiring process hired 8 very qualified jet captains in our class at 750 per month and we were very happy to have the job. Now we are all retired and enjoying a lifestyle that we earned by starting out with that salary. You have to think past that first year. Probation is the indicator of how much you want the job. If you can't handle the first year you probably won't be that dedicated to your job either. Put the pay where you are going to be, not the first year.

It's a different career now that deregulation effects have come full circle- if you retire w/ one airline you are very lucky-
and I can't imagine why someone would argue FOR 1st year pay- but please look at how it steals leverage from all of us- we must be able to change companies easier- NSL isn't an option at this time- (though I would recommend it could be done if there were an ounce of leadership at ALPA)

this is the only career where we start completely over at the bottom at poverty wages just for changing companies- it's capitalistic labor in reverse- our seniority will start over with the current system- but the poverty part is inexcusable- the stress we've created in this career is inexcusable-
We will get paid at the point we're willing to take a stand- that stand is made infinitely harder by the concept of 1st year pay-

If we knew that the next job at least paid a livable wage- we'd all be more willing to strike -