First year pay at Spirit

[waveflyer]

Ahh- spelling out the leadership failures of ALPA national very clearly- why have ALPA national if they can't provide some sense of the bigger picture?

They'd get it back in the increased leverage in the long run

 

[atldc9]

First year pay is an embarrassment to the profession. We expect professionalism, but offer poverty wages with excuses. These aren't entry level positions. We demand education, licenses and years of experience, and the pay should reflect those requirements.

Do you want to work with the FO who is the best pilot, or the one who can afford to live on first year wages?

 

[dicko]

Not so much the training, but management argues that a first year pilot is not producing revenue for the company for the first quarter of the year, because he's in the school house rather than flying trips. So, the way they look at it, they aren't getting a full year's work out of you, but they have to pay you for a full year's work. Of course, I would argue that that's just the cost of doing business, but the reality is that the first pilot group to try to change it is going to have to give up some bargaining capital to do so, and most pilots aren't willing to do that.

PCL,

The concept of "have to give up some bargaining capital to do so" is Pavlovian. We are negotiating for an industry standard that is based upon concessionary contracts. If we were improving on a good thing then I would understand. We are not.

Your peers know who you are. It's disturbing for many of us to read this kind of attitude. The blind support of any ALPA contract is a little worrying given the circumstances. If you know what i mean ...

The Spirit pilots showed 'testes gigantus'. I hope their MEC showed the same.

 

[PCL_128]

The concept of "have to give up some bargaining capital to do so" is Pavlovian. We are negotiating for an industry standard that is based upon concessionary contracts. If we were improving on a good thing then I would understand. We are not.

I agree with what you're saying, but sadly, the NMB usually doesn't. They just compare current industry standards, and give little credence to the idea that we've given up so much since 9/11. It's a bit ridiculous, but as long as we have to cater to the NMB, we don't have a lot of choice.

The blind support of any ALPA contract is a little worrying given the circumstances.

I opposed both the Mesa and PCL TAs. I don't "blindly support" anything. And like I said on a different thread, I would vote against the Spirit TA if it were at AirTran. The Spirit pilots need to decide what's best for them, however.

The Spirit pilots showed 'testes gigantus'. I hope their MEC showed the same.

Since the MEC were the ones that called the strike in the first place, I think they've already shown their "testes gigantus."

 

[dicko]

I agree with what you're saying, but sadly, the NMB usually doesn't. They just compare current industry standards, and give little credence to the idea that we've given up so much since 9/11. It's a bit ridiculous, but as long as we have to cater to the NMB, we don't have a lot of choice.

The Pilots have been released. No airplanes move. Shareholders and CEO's stock/investment crashes. The NMB has no say after the parties are released and the White House is unlikely to intervene.

The company will still be profitable if all of the Unions contract requests are met.

Give and take in this situation is like giving the guys at Nuremberg a sentence of '5 to 10 with good behavior'.

 

[PCL_128]

The Pilots have been released. No airplanes move. Shareholders and CEO's stock/investment crashes. The NMB has no say after the parties are released and the White House is unlikely to intervene.

I was talking about waveflyer's overall concept, which he wants to apply industry-wide, not just at Spirit.

 

[AC560]

Do you want to work with the FO who is the best pilot, or the one who can afford to live on first year wages?

Skills play no role in a seniority based system. The worst F/O or the best F/O in the world get the same pay, job security, and promotion opportunities.

 

[atldc9]

Skills play no role in a seniority based system. The worst F/O or the best F/O in the world get the same pay, job security, and promotion opportunities.

True, but I was referencing the application and hiring process.

 

[bubbers44]

Our hiring process hired 8 very qualified jet captains in our class at 750 per month and we were very happy to have the job. Now we are all retired and enjoying a lifestyle that we earned by starting out with that salary. You have to think past that first year. Probation is the indicator of how much you want the job. If you can't handle the first year you probably won't be that dedicated to your job either. Put the pay where you are going to be, not the first year.

 

[waveflyer]

Our hiring process hired 8 very qualified jet captains in our class at 750 per month and we were very happy to have the job. Now we are all retired and enjoying a lifestyle that we earned by starting out with that salary. You have to think past that first year. Probation is the indicator of how much you want the job. If you can't handle the first year you probably won't be that dedicated to your job either. Put the pay where you are going to be, not the first year.

It's a different career now that deregulation effects have come full circle- if you retire w/ one airline you are very lucky-
and I can't imagine why someone would argue FOR 1st year pay- but please look at how it steals leverage from all of us- we must be able to change companies easier- NSL isn't an option at this time- (though I would recommend it could be done if there were an ounce of leadership at ALPA)

this is the only career where we start completely over at the bottom at poverty wages just for changing companies- it's capitalistic labor in reverse- our seniority will start over with the current system- but the poverty part is inexcusable- the stress we've created in this career is inexcusable-
We will get paid at the point we're willing to take a stand- that stand is made infinitely harder by the concept of 1st year pay-

If we knew that the next job at least paid a livable wage- we'd all be more willing to strike -

 

[bubbers44]

NSL isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future. I don't think companies would want to have to hire people because they are on a national list. What we have is what will be. It is all a crap shoot. Hopefully your first airline stays in business. We have all flown with pilots that shouldn't have been hired. We can't put them on a list so everybody gets to see why.

 

[waveflyer]

Good lord guys- (waiting for someone to prove the saying "pilots are the stupidest smart people in the world" wrong)
we're talking about 1st year pay and it's effect on the industry- it's much bigger than just getting through the one year one time.

Try to stay focused. Forget the NSL- getting rid of poverty 1st year wages will help enough-

 

[Lear70]

While I don't believe that 1st year pay being so much lower at EVERY airline is a GOOD thing, it IS the industry standard, like it or not, and would require a large amount of negotiating capital to correct, not to mention EVERY MEC would have to agree to try to bring up the bottom as well, or the "movement" to correct the seniority problem never gets off the ground. Tough battle to fight... and choosing your battles IS half the war.

However...

I STRONGLY disagree with LOWERING pay rates that were ALREADY low in order to fund pay raises on the higher end. That was one of the things that got me steamed on the last AirTran T.A... I will never, EVER agree to selling out my fellow pilots, even the new-hires not on the list yet, by lowering their already-crappy pay just to get more money for other pilots on the list. That's a big "SCREW YOU" to the new-hires. Good job (not).

Moderator hat on: Please don't start new threads in the Majors forum for specific sections of the T.A. you like or don't like. This discussion should be in the LCC forum and really should be held on your private message board. I'll let this one run because there aren't any other Spirit threads on the 1st page right now and it's the first strike in nearly a decade at a passenger carrier, but please don't start multiple threads on the issue. Thanks.

 

[Dan Roman]

opps, that would be me, fair enough.

As far as bashing ALPA and first year pay. It is ALPA that fought for the rights of all F/O's. If you go back in history they have made better percentage gains for F/O's than Captains. By that I mean the pay disparity between Captain and F/O use to be far greater than it is now, ALPA fought to change it.
You could argue the independent unions doing there own thing has done the greatest damage to new hires. The biggest blow to the profession was when the APA signed off on a B scale that paid 50% less for new hires. It was unbelievable at the time and the rest of the industries jaw dropped. It took a strike at United by ALPA to rid our profession of that. Also, were is SWAPA when their airline requires a 737 type to be hired? I would say that is a larger burden on someone than first year pay.
If you are going to bash ALPA, keep in mind that although the independent unions can often capitalize on the gains ALPA makes, they tend to do what is best for themselves, regardless of the consequences for the industry as a whole, it is ALPA that tries to do what is best for the profession.

 

[Dan Roman]

PCL-
why not average out the 1st 3-5 years of FO pay - as the previous poster said- think time value of money-
I'd gladly forego any raises for 3-5 years to avoid the crunch of 1st year pay-
this can be done in a no cost way- we just don't even consider it- the old "well I had to do it(!)" w/ no thought to how it affects our industry nationwide...

we've simply taken this 1st year pay standard as a fact of airline life w/o ever questioning it. It's dumb. No personal attacks- there's just no other word for it.

That's a good idea. But somehow I think if you raised first year pay and than kept 2-5 year pay lower you would get a lot of screaming and yelling wondering why a 3 year F/O at airline x gets less than a 3 year guy at airline y. I think he would soon forget that he got paid more first year.

 

[Dan Roman]

Two more points- I know that only a very small % of legacy pilots will leave and make a lateral move- but don't minimize what even 5-10% can have on mgmt's willingness to negotiate- the free market is supposed to work for us- not just against us.

2nd think about the nature of Spirit airlines- the lifers may not care but there will always be pilots who use Spirit (and similar sized niche airlines) as a stepping stone and stay a relatively short while- this means a certain amount of turnover- and a certain percentage of pilots always on 1st year pay decreasing the overall compensation to the pilot group-

I would suggest this is exactly why not to increase first year pay. With all due respect, I want my union negotiating for my career, I don't want them spending negotiating capital for someone who is passing through and plans to leave. What also hasn't been mentioned, first year is probation. The pilot hired may not be suitable for the airline.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

So one of the biggest arguments that 1st year FOs shouldn't be paid because they spend some of the year in training. Okay.

Should Captain upgrades take the same hit? I'm not talking about that mythical 1st year CA rate, I'm talking about a 50% hit on whatever rate they would be at for that year.

The pilot hired may not be suitable for the airline.

I've flown with some FOs that I watched like a hawk, but I've also flown with some CAs that never should've gotten in that seat. Should upgrade CAs go back on to probation?

Somehow I doubt logic has any place in this argument.

 

[PCL_128]

I STRONGLY disagree with LOWERING pay rates that were ALREADY low in order to fund pay raises on the higher end.

I definitely agree with you there.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I STRONGLY disagree with LOWERING pay rates that were ALREADY low in order to fund pay raises on the higher end.

I agree. They never should have lowered first year rates for FOs to supplement the rates at the other end.

D'oh!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Waveflyer and PCL_128 are nicely illustrating the heart of the problem that ALPA has. Whether one wants to admit it or not, we all look out for number one first....Number one ain't you. It's me.

If ALPA had been smart, they wouldn't have designed a system that is so seniority based. There "SHOULD" be a more level system. Instead, this business is very much favored towards the senior members.

Higher first year pay, or some kind of national seniority list would help get people to "fight". Instead, senior folks like me are never going to fall on our swords only to have to start over again at the bottom for 20 bucks an hour....Ain't going to happen...

Both of these guys are huge ALPA flag waving chest thumpers, yet they are illustrating very nicely the quandry we find ourselves in...There should have never been this huge difference in "senior" vs. "junior"...however there is....That is our downfall, and it isn't going to be solved anytime soon....