first flight/ride in icing!!

[rajflyboy]

If you haven't been in icing before... you probably shouldn't be getting paid to flying passengers around. You simply don't have enough experience yet.

 

[minitour]

I'll buy that...but I stand by the idea that someone knowingly flying an un-certified plane into known icing conditions on a consistent basis should not be flying.

But yeah, you're probably right...you probably shouldn't be PIC of an airplane with people in back if you haven't experienced icing...

-mini

 

[Standby 1]

But yeah, you're probably right...you probably shouldn't be PIC of an airplane with people in back if you haven't experienced icing...

-mini

That should read "if you haven't experienced icing in an aircraft that is certified to fly in known icing conditions." You can be a great PIC with people in the back of your C172 without having experienced icing conditions before and no one can tell me otherwise. 90% of being a good PIC is having good judgement and that, for most GA aircraft, means the good judgement of not getting yourself and pax anywhere near icing conditions in a single engine Cessna.

I've experienced plenty of bad icing conditions when I flew freight. Big deal. I don't think it made me that much better of a pilot. Probably the best thing I learned from it was how best to avoid it.

But that's just my opinion and I have never been one to be proud of the stupid situations I got myself into over the years.


...

 

[minitour]

That should read "if you haven't experienced icing in an aircraft that is certified to fly in known icing conditions."..

Exactly!

I was trying to cover all the bases, thanks for picking that one up for me.

-mini

 

[vetteracer]

Quote
Probably the best thing I learned from it was how best to avoid it.


That is everything!!!! If the guys in the ATR had only learned this!

Mark

 

[Standby 1]

Exactly!

I was trying to cover all the bases, thanks for picking that one up for me.

-mini

No need to cover any bases --- clearly you have a good deal of common sense and good judgement when it comes to ice and limitations of aircraft. I'm sure you'll get more than your fair share of icing conditions someday when you're hauling freight in some beat-up old Navajo or schlepping corporate customers around!






..

 

[minitour]

No need to cover any bases --- clearly you have a good deal of common sense and good judgement when it comes to ice and limitations of aircraft. I'm sure you'll get more than your fair share of icing conditions someday when you're hauling freight in some beat-up old Navajo or schlepping corporate customers around!






..

Sounds like fun...where do I sign up?

-mini

 

[rajflyboy]

Icing ain't sh*t compared to thunderstorms. Give me a little ice anyday over flying through a TRW.

 

[Flyin Tony]

I flew in some ice for my first time on the 26th. 8,000 in the clear got a block down the 7,000. I was in the clouds for maybe 3 mins and it starts to build up. AINT NO WAY IM MESSIN WITH THAT SHAT. I got out of there asap. When I got to 8,000 its was +3 in the clouds it was -3. When I got out of the clouds the whole wing was frost. Then the ATC guy gives me 6,000 and I went down like a Bonanza full of doctors.

 

[rajflyboy]

heard a story about a Beachjet going into a Thunderstorm at 16000 feet, and forgetting to put the igniters on... was blown out the top at 33,000 feet and then came to find out... both engines had quit.

Message clear: Don't mess with Thunderstorms.

 

[NJA Capt]

I am merely suggesting that pilots be better trained in how to escape ice not fly in it! We train for an engine failure instrument failures, etc so shouldn't we know what to do in ice if ACCIDENTALLY encountered.

Did it not occur to you guys that there was a temp inversion???? +1 on the ground and +6 at 6000 msl???? With +1 at the surface what is the temp "supposed" to be at 6000'???

Pilots DO receive training in icing procedures. It happens when you train in an APPROVED aircraft type. You do not receive training in a UNapproved airplane because some idiot would take it as permission to fly in icing. You will NEVER see this type of training because the insurance companies and FAA would have a fit.

Look back over this thread and what do you see? Pilots flying UNapproved aircraft think it is OK, and the professional (ie....icing trained) pilots are saying it's stupid/illegal. You be the judge.

If any of you guys have an icing related accident/death your insurance will pay your families/survivors $0.00.

For the record, I have seen a jet with "hot" wings build ice faster than the AI system could get rid of it, and it happened within seconds. Last Winter we picked up so much going into PHL that we lost +/-40 knots.....Think the 182RG's extra power would handle that?

 

[minitour]

...Pilots DO receive training in icing procedures. It happens when you train in an APPROVED aircraft type....

oh....okay, then it's all good

but how do you assure everyone gets icing procedure training in an aircraft that doesn't require an additional training/type rating?

Just curious...

-mini

 

[vetteracer]

Quote
but how do you assure everyone gets icing procedure training in an aircraft that doesn't require an additional training/type rating?
Just curious...

That comes from you. Most companies will have a training session on Ice and T-storms and how it relates to their companies policy and how you should handle it. Then from experience and hanger talk with the "old salts" you figure out what to do, and what not to do.

Mark

 

[minitour]

...That comes from you. Most companies will have a training session on Ice and T-storms and how it relates to their companies policy and how you should handle it. Then from experience and hanger talk with the "old salts" you figure out what to do, and what not to do.

Mark

I'm talking more along the lines of someone buying a particular plane...say a Seneca that's K-ice...there's no way to really make sure that person gets proper training is there?

-mini

 

[NJA Capt]

...how do you assure everyone gets icing procedure training in an aircraft that doesn't require an additional training/type rating?
Just curious... mini

Keep in mind the opinions on this thread have been about C172/182RGs that are not approved, as opposed to non-K aircraft that haven't had the training.

When an owner purchases a "new" airplane from the factory they usually provide that owner with training for their new aircraft. Follow on owners miss out on that one. If someone buys a used a/c with K-ice capability, I'm sure their insurance company would be glad to list additional training facilities. Maybe even give you lower rates for attending.

 

[minitour]

...When an owner purchases a "new" airplane from the factory they usually provide that owner with training for their new aircraft. Follow on owners miss out on that one. If someone buys a used a/c with K-ice capability, I'm sure their insurance company would be glad to list additional training facilities. Maybe even give you lower rates for attending.

See...I get to learn something new every day!

Thanks!!

-mini

 

[rajflyboy]

If you fly in piston airplanes in the winter for a living... you are gonna have to deal with ice. Its part of the job. You have to learn when you can and can't go and also how to deal with Ice when you get some you were not expecting. The FAA even teaches this stuff.

If your getting paid to fly airplanes you should know how to deal with ice. Otherwise you should quit your job because you are not qualified enough to have the responsibility of carrying passengers.

Saying that someone is a cowboy because they picked up some ice in a C172 is not fair. We learn new things in aviation each day. Each of us has to go through a learning process during our careers. We will have the first time this happened or that happened.... and we will remember those experiences for the next time we get into similar situations. Thats why people don't get hired to fly the Boeing 777 right after they get a private pilot rating. The public deserves pilots that have had enough experience to make good descisions on a daily basis.

Each of us gains experience with each flight. The best of pilots take each experience and remember it for the next time.

 

[minitour]

Saying that someone is a cowboy because they picked up some ice in a C172 is not fair....

I'll only write for myself here.

I agree with everything else you said except this sentence.

I think that someone knowinglyand continuously flying a 172 (182/something similar) into icing conditions without having a K-ice bird, should not be flying.

Hell, I've picked up ice in a 172. It was a warm day too...it just happened to get real cold real quick at 5000 that day. Not something that was forecast, PIREPed or anything, but it definitely was there. I wish I had written down the exact numbers (temps) at 4 and 5 because it was quite a difference. Once we started the descent to 4,000 (we were holding for an approach) the ice started melting off rather quickly. In fact, by the time we got to 4,000 you couldn't even tell there was any ice on the airplane.

Lesson learned! I won't be flying anything like that into known icing conditions...especially on a continuing basis.

I tried to talk some people into staying on the ground today, but they didn't. At 6000 - 250/24 +3 - they said it wasn't freezing, so it wasn't known ice...I watched them takeoff and return 10 minutes later on the LOC approach.

I don't understand what the problem is. If your bird isn't K-ice, why do you want/need to fly it into known icing conditions? If you have to get somewhere that badly: 1. Airline or 2. Buy a certified airplane and get the training!

One of the Air Force guys (Trainer on basically any 707 variation) was talking about ice yesterday. We were discussing icing a static port over in flight. His comment, "if you ice up a static port on a 172, not only do you have bigger problems with the airplane, but with your head too".

He's right!

Anyway, that's my story. I'm not saying that you're in need of a head check if you go up on a day when it's 50-60 at the surface and you hit ice at 6-7k. I'm saying you're in need of some help if you know or suspect that cloud above (below) you has potential to throw ice on your (unequipped) plane and you go into it anyway.

Rant over.

-mini

 

[Standby 1]

If you fly in piston airplanes in the winter for a living... you are gonna have to deal with ice.

(Empasis added my me.)

Yes, if you fly for a living. People buzzing around in light singles have no business flying around in icing.

If your getting paid to fly airplanes you should know how to deal with ice. Otherwise you should quit your job because you are not qualified enough to have the responsibility of carrying passengers.

No one is talking about a compensated commercial pilot flying for a living here. This thread is about private pilots flying around in light SE a/c in KNOWN icing conditions and believing that is an okay thing to do. Where I come from, repeating the same mistakes over and over again just because you lived to tell the tale last time does indeed make one a "cowboy."

Each of us gains experience with each flight. The best of pilots take each experience and remember it for the next time.

I couldn't agree more.





...

 

[eggman76]

Don't everyone trip and fall on their face running off the soap box.

Good Grief!

Nobody with more than 500 hrs can say they haven't got iced in a small plane. So how did you get there? That's right, you flew into known icing, just like 99% of the current IFR pilots do everyday in the midwest. Sure it's a risk, but a small risk when measured properly against viable outs.

So, what is wrong with getting iced in a safe environment like explained above? Short of being an epileptic having a grand mall sezuire, I doubt you'll even raise your heart rate one beat per minute.

Avbug, I routinely climb to 10k and COMPLETELY shut off my engine and glide to a full stop just for fun once a month. Am I crazy? So be it, no different than gliders. People fear the unknown and what they know about themselves, I eliminate the unknown and deal with the "self knowledge" the best I can.

BTW, aerobatics next month, more unsafe, low altitude antics, I must be lucky!

What are the five hazardous attitudes?

Antiauthority
Impulsivity
Invulnerability
Macho
Resignation