first flight/ride in icing!!

[Immelman]

Sorry, I see your point... can make the same argument about mandatory spin training I suppose. Perhaps just making the student fly around with no more than 50-55% power & trying to climb clear of the icing would drive the point home in a safe way. Nothing like experiencing it first hand though to teach you to stay the heck out of it unless you're properly equipped.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

The reason I wouldnt turn around if I was picking up ice 5 miles from landing is because I wouldn't want to turn around only to find I was still in ice and now further from landing.

I have flown VFR into worsening weather only to think "I can turn around if I need to" only to find the weather behind has turned bad too.

If you had just popped out of clear and a million, sure turn around and go back to that. But if you went from junky IMC with no ice to junky IMC with ice I wouldn't pin all my hopes on the ice not being where it wasn't before. Weather changes not just over distance but also over time. Bad weather doesn't always come in from somewhere else. Sometimes it starts right where you are.

 

[vetteracer]

Could you have just stayed at 4K or 6K and stayed ice free? Then on the approach start down?


Mark

 

[avbug]

acooper,

You admire your instructor because he's managed to write a few hours in his logbook. Apparently he spent more time writing than gaining judgement. A Cessna 172 is not approved for flight into known icing, period. 10,000 hours isn't worth much more than the last hour flown, and that one apparently includes some very unwise judgement, from your post. Hardly something worth admiration.

Known ice occurs any time that conditions exist that might produce ice, or any time it is reported or forecast.

Putting a Cessna 172 of all things into conditions conducive to the formation of ice, especially freezing rain, is stupid. Very, very stupid.

Your instructor had no business continuing the approach with ice on the airplane; he should have landed. Period. You suggested that the ice was 'only accumulating slowly,' which suggests that it's okay to go flying in ice. Not so. You don't have much performance margin to begin with in the 172, and no available excess power to speak of. You have an airframe with the aerodynamic efficiency of a pickup truck. Adding ice can do nothing but hurt, and certainly not help.

What happens when you have that ice you can't shed, but need to land, and have to go around? You're fine leven and then on the descent, but what about the climb? Bad time to find out, isn't it?

If you accumulate ice faster, if the rate of accumulation increases or the amount of freezing rain increases, does being five miles from the airport make you less dead than say 10 miles from the airport?

Flying a Cessna 172 in ice is a risk taking operation. Flying in clouds in the winter is flying in ice, period. Ice can form, and apparently, it did. Your instructor has no business taking that airplane into the ice or the clouds in that area this time of year.

You're right; no forecaster could have predicted the intensity of the freezing rain, and neither could your instructor. But that aside, he had no business going in the cloud in the first place, or taking a student there. Not only were his actions rash and stupid, but he set a very poor example for both the students on board. Hours mean nothing; don't frame admiration for someone because they claim more ink than you in their logbook. A lot of pilots out there are still alive at this point in their careers due to luck, rather than good judgment and skill. The judgement this pilot has used speaks volumes. I certainly wouldn't fly with him or her, and you probably shouldn't, either.

 

[apcooper]

What exactly would you have done in this situation? He certainly got a weather briefing before the flight. Since this occured 3 hrs after we departed on the first leg the forecast probably changed somewhat. Since Worcester was reporting 4000 OVC w/no precip and a temp of +1C it would have been difficult to know that just 20mi NW near Gardner there would be -FZRA since GDM had no weather reporting. I guess it would have been best to climb back up to 6000 in warm air as soon as it was below freezing and raining and make a retreat to Worcester and stay at that alt until shooting the app into ORH. That way there wouldn't have been any ice. I also think my instructor should have checked the weather at ORH before departing back to HFD to re-assess the situation. As we headed back from Gardner to Hartford there was a VFR 172 recieving advisories that seemed to be caught in the frozen precip. BDL app helped him avoid it by their radar display. He described it in much the same way as what We'd been through. Unfortunately I don't think we could have had the luxury of knowing exactly where the precip was since we were talking to Bos Center and therefore had very limited radar coverage to begin with.

 

[flyifrvfr]

I was flying a Navajo from North Carolina to Maryland Sunday morning. I have just over 530 hours and 55 hours of multi. I am coming up on 95 hours of instrument with 25 of those in actual. As of right now, I have never had an airplane ice up, but my best chance would have been Sunday. We were at 17,000 feet and decended to the first layer at 10,000 near Virginia. As we went through the clouds precip began to hit the windshield.

Passing through to the next layer at 7,000 feet still no ice. Passing from 4,000 feet in Baltimore down to 2,000 feet we finally get ground contact. All the way through the clouds not once did we pick up ice. The plane is certified for known Ice it has boots, Prop Boots and Heated windshield. I would have liked to see some ice in this plane but I will have to wait for another chance. Boiler plate forcast for ice that day turned out to be wrong, but it would have been the right conditions to experience ice because of the different layers which would have offered us a way out if we iced up.

 

[vetteracer]

Ice is going to happen, the only issue I see (or extrapolate) is that you descended into some ice and stayed there. You should have returned to the altitude, area etc were there was not ice accumulation.

Just because ATC or the approach wants you down to 2500 40 miles out does not mean you have to do it. Stay on top or at the altitude were there is no ice. Tell ATC what's up and what you are going to do.

"I want to stay at 6000 until 3 miles outside the OM, picking up ice lower".

Glad it all worked out.

Mark

 

[7B2]

Since this occured 3 hrs after we departed on the first leg the forecast probably changed somewhat.

To answer your question: I was flying into BTV (14.00 local!!)and no juicy details other than we were both paying very close attention to the icing situation and discussed this scenario before we even left (06.30 local !!)

There's 7 and a half hours right there and together we don't even have 10.000 hrs, but still we knew what we were going to see.

I don't care what the excuses are; YOU KNOW that here in the Northeast you are going to see ice 6-7 months out of the year.

And here we've all teased the icing; but here we also know that you cannot tease freezing rain!! (forecasted for about 2-3 days in advance by "just" the weather channel in your particular case)

As I said before; just consider yourself lucky because next time freezing rain will bring you down in a C-172, even with a 10.000 hr CFII on board.

 

[91100 100 set]

A B-777 capt couldnt fly an iced up 172 any better than a newly minted insturment pilot.

Well, you are probably correct about the actual handling of the controls, but I don't think a B-777 captain would ever let himself get iced up in a 172. At least I hope not.

 

[apcooper]

7B2,


You posted,

"There's 7 and a half right there"

What are you saying? I'm not quite sure.

Also why is it that we only encountered trace/light ice according to the AIM? I thought FZRA was always sev ice. I'm shocked it didn't turn us into a popsicle since it was raining with an OAT of -4C!

Just out of curiousity how high would your pucker factor have been in this case where eventhough it was light ice it EASILY could have been severe at any second? Mine was noticable but not terribly high. Unfortunatly mt CFII's was lower and the IFR student seemed completely oblivious.

I thought about suggesting he land short at ORH several minutes before ice even formed but didn't want to disrupt he and his student since my feeling was only based on a huntch and I easily could have been wrong. I'm ready to be lashed for that so bring it on!!! Also its amazing that I anticipated this long before my CFII by reading weather signposts several hrs earlier like a temp inv and such. My CFII didn't even notice the OAT plunge from +6 to -4 until I pointed it out and by then I'd long expected it!

I totally agree that hours don't mean jack $hit in these cases. Why don't insurance companies know this?!! It is not the pilots capability that really matters here. Its the planes capability!! Like I said "a superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid situations that would require his superior skills!"

 

[avbug]

Since Worcester was reporting 4000 OVC w/no precip and a temp of +1C it would have been difficult to know that just 20mi NW near Gardner there would be -FZRA since GDM had no weather reporting.

No precip? What has precipitation got to do with anything. 4,000 overcast means that you have visible moisture at 4,000. If the temperature at the surface is +1 degree, the temperature will generally (inversions excepted) be below that; freezing in the cloud. Any precip that does develop may be frozen, or freezing. Certainly ice is a distinct possibility in the cloud. Training in a 172 in that cloud isn't a wise thing.

What would I have done?

I would have elected to forgo training in known icing conditions in an airplane that's not certificated or approved for flight into known ice. Additionally, I would forgo training period in icing conditions. Obviously not what your instructor did.

 

[apcooper]

Avbug,


All I was saying is that in the clouds at 6000 it was +6 and at Worcester it was +1. You'd think then under normal circumstances it would remain above freezing all the way from 6000 to the surface.

You also stated:

"no precip? What has precipitation got to do with anything. 4,000 overcast means that you have visible moisture at 4,000."


Yea, we assumed that in the clouds it was above freezing all the way down since at 6000 it was +6 and at the surface it was +1. Seems reasonable, right? Few pilots envisioned that in between the warm air aloft and at the warm air at the surface there would be subfreezing air. Cruising at 6000 with a +6 reading in clouds most pilots wouldn't give it much thought. My CFII was no exception. This was a stealthy minefield even for an experienced pilot! I don't know what else to say other than I feel lucky nothing happened since I was powerless from the back seat.

Responding to your other question/comment on ipilot.com. There was a quarter inch on the windscreen but only a fingernail thickness on the leading edges. When I said trace/light I was talking about the wings. Also let me repeat that there was no loss of airspeed in the PT as well as no increase in stall speed since we did a nose high landing with full flaps on a 3000ft rwy! (another mistake IMHO)

 

[minitour]

...There was a quarter inch on the windscreen but only a fingernail thickness on the leading edges. When I said trace/light I was talking about the wings. Also let me repeat that there was no loss of airspeed in the PT as well as no increase in stall speed since we did a nose high landing with full flaps on a 3000ft rwy! (another mistake IMHO)

I think my biggest concern (aside from ice itself on an airplane) would be that right there.

If you're picking up ice, you get out. If you were with center, could they have not vectored you to final instead of allowing the full procedure?

Maybe ATC guys can help out here, but if a guy has ice and you tell ATC...they're going to help...if not, drop the E, ask for vectors to final and tell them why...

Also the flaps...no thanks...I'd rather come in a bit hot (a 172 will stop well within 3000' with no flaps) and hit the brakes rather than stall it with full flaps...or perhaps wait to see if the ice starts melting closer to the surface...if so, then go ahead and put the flaps in once visual...

Anyway...

A good lesson? Probably. One that I wish there was a different way to learn? Yeah.

Oh the joys if there was mandatory ice training during your initial (maybe even recurrent/IPC) instrument training. A simulator...FTD...anything...a written test...just something. It's just too freaky to take a plane up that's not K-ice and not realize what is about to happen...

Okay...I'm done preaching now...

-mini

 

[apcooper]

Minitour,

I partially agree with you about icing training. I think that even in a c-172 you ought to fly in heavy ice. WAIT THOUGH before you call me crazy!!! While in heavy ice the freezing level ought to be at least 5000ft. That was you can see how a poor 172 performs as a popsicle but at the same time you have a guarenteed out by simply descenting into warm air and melting it off.

In terms of getting good training in landing an iced up plane that is too dangerous to practice. It would be like practicing bleeding much like in the 60's with Multiengine training when the FAA preferred the Vmc domos at 500ft since the asymetric thrust is geatest due to the dense air. How suicidal!! In terms of practicing landing an iced up plane I think IFR pilots need to take some lessons in a sophisticaled simutator that would take into account loss of lift, more drag, supercooled large droplets and icing runback, control anomolies, tail stalls, ice on unprotected surfaces, etc.

We always hear the big airline guys practice windsheer escape scenarios on approach. Why the GA community doesn't put that much emphasis on icing ESCAPE stratigies for different situations is beyond me. Notice i said "escape" and not how to fly in ice. If your descending to land for instance and out of nowhere you get drenched in FZRA is it best to immediatly do a 180 (regardless of aircraft capability) or just keep your hdg and climb (always warm air above you here) or do both simotaniously? After you escape how can you be certain which airports are not reporting this? Which airport is your best bet?

Instead of the FAA putting a lot of emphasis on holding the needles on the ILS, flying alt and hdg within 100 and 10, they ought to be teaching pilots stratagic weather descision making and escape skills! This is doubly true for IFR pilots. Your examiner before you take your IFR checkride ought to pick several random routes and you decide with DUATS nearby whether or not it would be safe to go and he will pass/fail you based on your judgement. Sounds like a brillant idea. Why have I not heard anyone mention this? I certainly can't be the first to think of it. Right? Bottom line, descision making training over manuver training all day long!!!

 

[avbug]

Stealthy minefield? A cessna 172 in the clouds in the winter, in January. You get ice. This is a surprise in some fashion? Minefield for a new student pilot, perhaps.


Never assume there will be no ice. Known ice exists when conditions known to be conducive to ice exist. Such as visible moisture in the winter. Regardless of what you see aloft, I'm betting that ice was in the forecast, making it known ice...to say nothing of the fact that ice should reasonably be expected at altitude if the surface is close to freezing, regardless of the ambient lapse rate.

Ice disrupts airflow. ice adds weight. Ice can be unpredictable. It's winter. Plan on ice.