first flight/ride in icing!!

[TDTURBO]

Avbug,

I am merely suggesting that pilots be better trained in how to escape ice not fly in it! We train for an engine failure insturment failures, etc so shouldn't we know what to do in ice if ACCIDENTLY encountered.


"I partially agree with you about icing training. I think that even in a c-172 you ought to fly in heavy ice. WAIT THOUGH before you call me crazy!!! While in heavy ice the freezing level ought to be at least 5000ft. That was you can see how a poor 172 performs as a popsicle but at the same time you have a guarenteed out by simply descenting into warm air and melting it off. "


In my previous post I was not all that serious about doing just that. The thought just crossed my mind. I guess it was stupid the more I think about it so I'll bi^#h slap myself. It's like when you were little and you touched the stove thinking it won't hurt. If you hadn't learned the hard way and burned yourself you'd think its not really hot. Right?? Kinda the same thing here but under controlled conditions. I'm not going to go up and try that or encourage any other pilot to. My only point was to find any way for new IFR pilots to know how ice degrades performance and is dangerous. I am NOT trying to outsmart mother nature or ignore the regs AT ALL. Let me make that very clear for not just yourself but everyone else on flightinfo. Bottom line is as I previously mentioned to use an effective simulator for ice escape stratigies.

apcooper, there are several icing sites I suggest you read before playing around ice, it will bite you if you come unprepared, you need several outs. This is a good place to start.

http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov/

http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html

 

[TDTURBO]

I agree 100%...the only problem is (as Avbug pointed out) ice is so unpredictable.

Today you might get a dusting, tomorrow you could be dead...the simulator would have to be so complex and you'd have to spend so much time in it...

It's a tough call...ideally, we'd be trained for everything...but realistically, I don't think it would ever happen...

-mini

Unpredictable huh? If it's upredictable than I can predict that it will be unpredictable, right? So I can plan on that, right?

How you say?

I don't care how unpredictable the ice is, if I have a thousand feet of it with warm air below, as in 2000 ft or more, than their is NO WAY I am getting in trouble unless I'm a spazz. I know from flying my plane in ice a hundred times exactly how much it takes before I need to take action quickly. I cut that margin in half and have an escape route within my grasp not longer than 30 seconds away if things get ugly.

"A mans got to know his limitations"

 

[HMR]

I know from flying my plane in ice a hundred times exactly how much it takes before I need to take action quickly.

CAUTION: the LAWN DART POTENTIAL METER is starting to peg.

 

[TDTURBO]

I know from flying my plane in ice a hundred times exactly how much it takes before I need to take action quickly.

CAUTION: the LAWN DART POTENTIAL METER is starting to peg.

Every man has to know his limitations, I am glad you know yours!

Fly Safe

 

[minitour]

I don't care how unpredictable the ice is...

Okay all you CFIs out there that had to memorize all of these...I'm gonna give this one a shot.

Invulnerable? I don't care, it can't happen to me.

How did I do? Is that even one of them? I'm so bad at these...

Seriously though, like Avbug said...please don't fly your 182 over me, my family, my friends, or anyone else I might have the chance to come into contact with in known ice.

Have we read 91.13 lately? By intentionally flying into K-ice in a plane that isn't certified for it, you're potentially causing a danger to people and property on the ground. The property I couldn't care less about...I'm sure you have insurance. It's the people that matter to me.

-mini

 

[TDTURBO]

Okay all you CFIs out there that had to memorize all of these...I'm gonna give this one a shot.

Invulnerable? I don't care, it can't happen to me.

How did I do? Is that even one of them? I'm so bad at these...

Seriously though, like Avbug said...please don't fly your 182 over me, my family, my friends, or anyone else I might have the chance to come into contact with in known ice.

Have we read 91.13 lately? By intentionally flying into K-ice in a plane that isn't certified for it, you're potentially causing a danger to people and property on the ground. The property I couldn't care less about...I'm sure you have insurance. It's the people that matter to me.

-mini

Then I guess you better move to a cave, there are lots and lots of flying gas cans traversing your house everyday and any one of them could crash right into your bath tub while you're listening to your favorite Johnny Cash song.

Life is too short to worry about that sh*t.

 

[minitour]

Then I guess you better move to a cave, there are lots and lots of flying gas cans traversing your house everyday and any one of them could crash right into your bath tub while you're listening to your favorite Johnny Cash song.

Life is too short to worry about that sh*t.

JUST FOR THE RECORD!!!...


It's Backstreet Boys

 

[Standby 1]

Okay all you CFIs out there that had to memorize all of these...I'm gonna give this one a shot.

Invulnerable? I don't care, it can't happen to me.

How did I do? Is that even one of them? I'm so bad at these...

Seriously though, like Avbug said...please don't fly your 182 over me, my family, my friends, or anyone else I might have the chance to come into contact with in known ice.

Have we read 91.13 lately? By intentionally flying into K-ice in a plane that isn't certified for it, you're potentially causing a danger to people and property on the ground. The property I couldn't care less about...I'm sure you have insurance. It's the people that matter to me.

-mini

I couldn't agree more. Most pilots inadvertantly get themselves in bad situations at some point during their training (or multiple bad situations, in my case). Most of us get lucky and live to tell the tale. One type of pilot learns how to NEVER get themselves in that situation again and realize that the outcome might not be so life-affirming next time.

The other type of pilot is emboldened by the experience and does not try to avoid the situation next, being convinced that he/she is skilled enough to ensure the same outcome.

When I was CFI'ing, the difference between a good student and a scary one was all about attitude. I could teach the mechanical skills of flying to anyone...but it's much more difficult to teach common sense and a healthy respect for Mother Nature.





...

 

[Sctt@NJA]

I have often thought that the best pilot is one who gets scared about the right things. Someone who is afraid of too much, or of the wrong things might be ok as a private pilot but wont cut it profesionally. Someone who isn't afraid when they should be is just a plain hazard.

We just got a memo about icing from the company... It stresses how little ice can create big problems. Including amounts that can't even be seen from the cockpit. I can assure you that all of us at Netjets flying airplanes with a good deal more capability than a c-172 have more respect for ice than some of the posters on this thread.

We put on the anti-ice anytime we are in visible moisture (which includes clouds and sometimes just haze) with an outside temperature of less than +10.
Which puts +6 right in the zone where you need to start worrying (if you haven't already) in a non-ice approved airplane.

 

[minitour]

I have often thought that the best pilot is one who gets scared about the right things. Someone who is afraid of too much, or of the wrong things might be ok as a private pilot but wont cut it profesionally. Someone who isn't afraid when they should be is just a plain hazard...

Well...whether it's bad or not, ice scares me...maybe not scares me...someone earlier said "respect" for ice...that's what I have... In a non K-ice plane of course. Give me a King Air (no really...give me a King Air?) or a Citation (anyone got an extra one?) and I'm still being careful, but I know the plane is more capable than the 172 type airplanes.

Anytime the surface temp is 45*F or less, I'm being very cautious. I don't really care what the forecast freezing level is (I do take a look at it, but I don't say, "oh hey, I can fly up to ___ feet"). If it's less than 40*F, I'm cancelling. Too much risk there for my likes...especially if it's LIFR. I don't mind the clouds down to 200' DHs, but I do mind not being out of visible moisture in cold temps down to 200' DHs.

If you're flying stuff capable and at +10 you're putting on the anti-ice, that should say something to the rest of us, no?

Anyway...thats just MHO. I'm sure people fly 182s and 172s and the like every day into K-ice and live to tell about how good they were. I just hope when they become a statistic, it isn't over someone or with someone on board.

-mini

 

[spngbobsqrpilot]

Unable

I don't care how unpredictable the ice is, if I have a thousand feet of it with warm air below, as in 2000 ft or more, than their is NO WAY I am getting in trouble unless I'm a spazz.

N999XY: Checking in level 7000, request descent.

ATC: Unable, numerous departures below restricted to 6000 along your route of flight.

Now what? Sure you can ask for a vector, but will that vector take you out over water for your decent? Into worse conditions?

You don't always have the option of "descending to warmer air" even though you *have* warmer air below. You could find yourself being delayed in your descent, or worse, being cleared to 6000 and finding WORSE icing conditions before finally being cleared to 5000.

It's not called the Federal Aviation Recommendations ya know...


******** Note: Do not attempt the following ********


If you want some simulation of how ice affects performance then try reducing your RPM 100 rpm per minute and maintain your altitude / speed.

Then on landing try flying your approach at 1.6Vso. (Don't reduce power below 1800 RPM and don't add any flaps for the full effect.)

Now stop on the runway.

 

[rajflyboy]

AP Cooper

Sounds like you have had your first Ice experience. Welcome to flying small airplanes IFR in the northeast in the middle of winter.

Your encounter is something that most professional pilots have been through at one point or another in their careers.


Main points to consider when flight planning in the winter:

1. Don't fly in freezing rain.
2. Always have a plan B if it looks like you MAY encounter ice. Check the temps at altitudes above and below your planned altitude. If you can descend to the MEA and be in VFR conditions in above freezing temps.... that will give you your best Plan B. As was already stated... you can stay high above the clouds and descend quickly at the last minute. Having a PLAN B is necessary when flying near icing conditions. Don't leave home without it.
3. If you pick up ice; get out of it as quickly as possible. Fly at as fast of an airspeed as you can maintain. Use higher than normal approach speeds and DON'T USE FLAPS.
4. If you have to land with ice on the aircraft >> Find a long runway and come in faster than normal. Don't use a normal landing speed.

 

[HMR]

Well...whether it's bad or not, ice scares me...

Excellent! I couldn't agree more.

TDTURBO,
I've been trapped in ice (couldn't climb or desend out of it) in that plane in your avatar. I've still got the twitch to prove it. How do you stay so comfortable flying around iced up in that little Cessna?

BTW-Where are you going that's so important you've had to fly in ice "hundreds of times"? Are you flying sick, orphan babies to the hospital? If so, let's take up an offering and buy you a decent airplane.

 

[vetteracer]

AP Cooper

Sounds like you have had your first Ice experience. Welcome to flying small airplanes IFR in the northeast in the middle of winter.

Your encounter is something that most professional pilots have been through at one point or another in their careers.


Main points to consider when flight planning in the winter:

1. Don't fly in freezing rain.
2. Always have a plan B if it looks like you MAY encounter ice. Check the temps at altitudes above and below your planned altitude. If you can descend to the MEA and be in VFR conditions in above freezing temps.... that will give you your best Plan B. As was already stated... you can stay high above the clouds and descend quickly at the last minute. Having a PLAN B is necessary when flying near icing conditions. Don't leave home without it.
3. If you pick up ice; get out of it as quickly as possible. Fly at as fast of an airspeed as you can maintain. Use higher than normal approach speeds and DON'T USE FLAPS.
4. If you have to land with ice on the aircraft >> Find a long runway and come in faster than normal. Don't use a normal landing speed.

Great Advice.

Icing is a fact of life for the career pilot. Get use to it. Now flying in ice with a 172 for a short time is doable. I am not going to hold a trip or wait days for the weather to clear when all I have to do is punch through a 2K-foot layer. IF, the pireps have reported light ice and KNOWN tops along the route. Sitting in ICE other then for a short climb or the approach is not a good idea.

The above is no more dangerous then flying a known ICE 402 around IN the ice. Crap a motor and it’s all over. Learning how to deal with ice, avoid it, and always have an "out" is the only way to survive. I have flown with guys that are so scared of ice, that there flying skills, position awareness, and scan become more of a problem then the ice.

On another note, pilots are far less willing to push an icing condition with a 172 or "insert whatever single" then they are with a 300-400 series Cessna. Getting a 1/8" on a 172 while turning around or punching through a layer is far less worrisome then 1.5" of ice on a 402.

In pushing bad situations I have iced up 172's, 182's and they flew OK, Not that I like to. I routinely flew A V-35B with a hot plate on the window through 6K-8K foot thick layer to get on top, and linger around on approaches picking up ice. The V-35B hauled a ton of ice and seemed to be un-affected. Not advocating this but in the V-35 I never felt concerned or experienced adverse handling.



Mark

 

[apcooper]

Vetteracer,

How much airspeed do you think would be lost in cruise with 1.5in on a 402 as you mentioned? How much would the stall speed increase?

Also for planes that are K-ice equipped how rigerous are the testing standards in terms of:

1) Max amount of time in continious "moderate icing"

2) Max time in FZRA or FZDZ so you can escape this!

3) Lowering of max ceiling even when all equipment is fully functional?

BTW is it best to escape FZRA with an immediate 180 and a climb if you can and then retreat to an airport opposite of where the nasty stuff is? Seems right but wanted to know your opinion? Before we know it winter will be over and we will have to start worrying about the other weather killer again.... thunderstorms!!!


Actually by posting that It jogged my mind. I'd meant to ask someone what the point is of having the FAA go out of their way to approve planes for flight in ice. After all they don't certify (or dissapprove) planes for flight into t-storms!! It is legal to fly a 172 into a squall line but obviously suicidal so it seems that the FAA wouldn't waste their time with icing cert as well?

 

[vetteracer]

Vetteracer,
How much airspeed do you think would be lost in cruise with 1.5in on a 402 as you mentioned? How much would the stall speed increase?

Well, my comment was rather tongue-in-cheek, of course the boots will clean MOST, not all, off the leading edge. And the more you use the boots, the efficiency gets less and less, due to pieces that do not break off. If you blow the boots in a climb, with 1/4"-1/3" of ice, you risk bridging the boots.
{bridging = raising the ice, and expanding it, but not shedding it}.
This is a real problem, so I wait until I have at least 1/2" to blow the boots, and the faster the better. Ask for a block altitude, then push the nose over, gain 40 Kts, blow the boots, climb back to alt.

By the way, the FAA published a memo some years back discounting the bridging phenomenon. It is alive and real, trust me! They have since re-counted the memo.
The rest of the impact surfaces have 1.5" of ice, the tip tanks, the spinners, the nose, the windows, the inboard wing roots, most of the rudder, tips of the elevator, engine cowlings, etc. I find the best place to look for ice accumulation is on the temp probe, the ones that are drilled through the window. With this scenario a 402 at cruise power would loose about 30 knots, but handling is fairly stable. All 300-400 series Cessna’s are tail stall prone due to the location of the elevator. So any ice to speak of means limited use of the flaps.


BTW is it best to escape FZRA with an immediate 180 and a climb if you can and then retreat to an airport opposite of where the nasty stuff is? Seems right but wanted to know your opinion? Before we know it winter will be over and we will have to start worrying about the other weather killer again.... thunderstorms!!!

The best way to exit Freezing Rain would be a climb. It is warmer above to produce liquid rain. Or a climbing 180 I guess. I always climb when I run into any ice. You can ALWAYS go down, the other way can be difficult. Climb to the top, or find out what the tops are. When I was flying piston twins every day in the Midwest I always found out the tops, call the tower, call a NWA flight on ground freq and ask them to call the tops back on 123.45. The point is you cannot sit in the ice. Sitting in the ice is just running the clock down. You have to get out of it. Now, boots, hot props, etc buy you some time. How much time, depends on the rate of accumulation? Sit there long enough and now your climbing potential may be gone. I always try to get on top, find a layer, or an altitude were it is warm enough to stay clean. And an ice conscience pilot notes the temp at all altitudes on the climb out. Always thinking where can I go to stay clean, or get out. If you have no refuge, you need to find one or land.

I flew light piston twins single pilot day night IFR-VFR year round in the Midwest, T-storms every day in summer, and ICE from Sept, to April. It is a fact of life. You either learn to find a way to live with it, or find another job. It can be done safely if you have a respect for it.

The king Air hauls ice great and climbing to alt above the ice is the norm. Piston twins on the other hand is a whole diff game. During college I flew 6 days week, 3-5 hours a day. And it seemed that 2-3 times a year I really got hammered with ice, the rest of the times I was either able to get on top, below, find a layer, etc. So in the Midwest, 2-3 days a year of ice that was really bad, was not that big of a deal.



The best advice I could tell someone, about ice is Get on top and STAY ON TOP AS LONG AS YOU CAN. Going into MSP they always push light traffic down to 3K 50 miles out. YEAH right, Sit for 30 min plus vector time in moderate ice. But there were always some guys that would start down. I was one off them, ONCE. Had so much ice there was no way to level off, intercepted the glide slope inside the OM and was below the GS most of the way down. Sat in the ice for 45 mins, and after 30 mins the CB on the prop anti ice popped. Took me 15 mins to notice that the ice was not banging off the plane. Stay on top, in the clear until you have to start down. Ask for a vector, TELL them you are not going to descend into the ice. I wish I had a forum, or someone told me I could tell a controller what I wanted to do or needed to do. Controllers think you wont take a vector or a climb. I will do what it takes to stay on top out of the ice in piston twin until I have to come down.

If the ice was mod or heavy, I would stay on top and plan a 2K foot per minute descent outside the OM, to cross the OM at my desired intercept ALT, popping the boots all the way down. Then, at the Om, raise the nose, swing the gear and start down the slide at 140KTS (402-310), no flaps. Once the field was in sight, APP flaps at the most if any flaps at all.





Lesson 2

Clean screws will pull a dirty plane, dirty screws pull nothing. Loose the prop heat and that is bad news in heavy ice. You can try to cycle the props by moving them from high to low RPM quickly to try and twist the blades, Who knows if it works?

I think every good pilot should be well versed in ICE. It is one off the most dangerous weather phenomenon’s related to flying. And yet when I flew cargo full time, every Sept, there was some guy/girls that would pack their bags and quit. Did not even care to try, ride along with someone else, or get some experience. They were not shy about it, SEE YA, no ice for me. I often wondered if the two guys flying the ATR that crashed a few years ago were guys like this. If you want the title of Captain you owe it to your passengers to be well-versed on weather and ice before you gamble with their lives.

Mark

 

[rajflyboy]

thanks vetteracer


Professional pilots can't be afraid of some icing conditions. Its part of the job that we do.

We just have to have a basic understanding of icing conditions and always have a plan b.

 

[vetteracer]

Thanks, having an "OUT" is the key.

The sad thing I think is there are Capt. out there that have never been IMC alone, or in the ICE alone. They got comfort when they were an FO by not being in charge. Now, it is there turn at the helm, and god only hopes they have picked up some knowledge siting in the right seat.

Mark

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Professional pilots can't be afraid of some icing conditions. Its part of the job that we do.

We just have to have a basic understanding of icing conditions and always have a plan b.

If you are in a C-172, in ice, you better be scared. Look this stuff is all driven by circumstance and equipment. If you are talking about a 1000 foot layer with some rime in it then ok fine, punch through.

If the weather is IMC from 200 feet on up the the flight levels then you are talking about something different.

In the hilly parts of the northeast its not uncommon to have MEAs of 6000 or higher. If you are flying an unpressurized airplane you can be down to a 4000 foot margin to operate in. If thats where the ice is you are screwed.

I was at an upstate NY airport last winter talking with a cargo pilot. He was flying a Navajo. He told me about how a couple weeks earlier he had picked up a good deal of ice and had started to divert. He was soon at max power descending at 2000 feet per minute. He thought he was a gonner. He broke out of the bases and shed the ice and was able to arrest the descent at about 500 feet agl.

Talk to some caravan guys doing cargo. More nightmare stories.

Sure sometimes its possible to manage the risks of ice under certain conditions- Ie thin layers with known bases and tops and flat land beneath. But how often is weather that reliable? The real world is messy and not at all like text book examples.

IFR piston twin flying in the northeast in winter is hazardous... there I said it and its true. IFR piston single flying in the northeast in winter is dumb... flame on.

 

[minitour]

...IFR piston twin flying in the northeast in winter is hazardous... there I said it and its true. IFR piston single flying in the northeast in winter is dumb... flame on.

...depending on the conditions.

You get your random 60*F days here and there...s*it happens...

I agree for the most part though...

Oh yeah and you're a BILLION percent right on flying a 172 in ice and being scared...if you hit ice in something like that...heh...I'm sorry 180hp is barely enough to put you and a friend in the air, let alone ice with its weight and airflow disruption, etc.

Anyone who thinks it's okay to fly an airplane in ice that isn't certified for K-ice is...well, I don't think there's a reason for them to be flying...

JMHO

-mini