FEDEX or Alaska?

[Babylon]

1. The stats the guy earlier put up about Fedex on the 727 for 3 years are unrealistic. I'm a 2nd year guy on the MD11 out of LAX - I was out of ANC with every trip making $134/hr. My case will probably be an average case for the next few years.

2. Fedex is obviously much more stable than Alaska - I don't see a concensionary contract in our future and anything's possible at AS.

3. As far as equipment goes I'd much rather fly the MD11, 757, or 777 than any 737 (I fly the 737NG for the Reserves). 737 is not really any sort of "nice equipment" unless it's the only glass you've ever flown. Much better equipment and flying avail at Fedex.

4. Back side of the clock flying sucks. You will do it at Fedex. There is a lot of variety but you can count on some serious circadian rhythm shifts here. I still think it's worth it for a variety of reasons but it is tough.

5. Since you're at AS now I'll guess that you might live on the West coast - if so than Fedex can be great for you. The ANC base is junior and a great base with great flying - a large amount of EASY trips to Asia with a great crew force. If you live down south, LAX is a real possiblity - not as much good flying but sitting reserve and working 4 days a month is very nice.

I think the flying at Alaska may be more fun but no where near as secure. Good luck.

 

[Falconjet]

I wouldn't assume that movement at FedEx will necessarily continue at its current rate. The company has ALREADY slowed down hiring just in case the Age 60 rule changes. When/If it actually does change, hiring and advancement will slow down even more.

I was hired in 02 and spent 2 years on RESERVE in the back of the Boeing. Couldn't even sniff the right seat till year 3. A lot of guys hired a year ahead of me (almost 400 guys) were able to get to the right seat of the Boeing very quickly, but a lot of us were stuck at the bottom for a while.

I would absolutely use the lowest numbers when making a purely financial comparison of the two companies. If it is worth leaving at the low end of the scale and you happen to move up quicker then it will be gravy.

I compared SW pay with FedEx at the year and a half mark when I finally made it out of the pool at SW. I used an ultra conservative upgrade scenario for FedEx and never even considered the widebody aircraft. With 16 left at FedEx and 14 at SW (at that time) I would have about broken even in that scenario, except for the A plan difference. I estimated the A plan to be worth $1M to me over my life if I retired as a Boeing Capt at 60 and then lived to be 75. FedEx B fund just about offset SW's 401K match and the wages over the time frame were remarkably close. Again, this was using pretty conservative numbers for career progression at FedEx.

Imagine my surprise and delight when I started making widebody pay and we finally got the new contract. I haven't gone back to re-compute the numbers because it is moot and the money wasn't the main reason I stayed. The QOL and relative stability and security at FedEx were the main reasons even though I was only about 35 numbers from the bottom for almost 2 years when I had to make the choice.

I would be conservative with the numbers and then consider the fact that FedEx (and SW for that matter) is a company built by a visionary who takes an extremely personal stake in the success of the company. That is the main reason I think FedEx and SW stand out from other airlines. Both are run by the individuals with a personal stake in their success and aren't simply in it to make the most dough in a short time, punch their airline exec ticket and then burn the place down either through mismanagement or incompetence.

That is why I would certainly recommend the jump over to Purple if the numbers work for you.

Good luck.

FJ

 

[SpoolDaddy]

I left Alaska shortly after Kasher and have been at FedEx almost two years. I can say that of the two former AS guys I know at FX, neither of us regret our decision for a minute. That said, when it was good at AS, it was great, surfing with my mobile in a ziploc, and I made great friends there... great crew force. Crew force at FX is also great, and I sleep better at night these days.

Warnings about "slow down" are true and if or more likely when 65 happens things will slow down everywhere, including FX. Tough, tough decision no doubt, with some very strong positives to each company depending on your personal position. I won't lie, giving up several years of seniority did sting.

Good luck either way, SD

 

[johnsonrod]

The Flight Attendants are hotter at Fedex.

Personally, I'd go with Fedex and see the world on bigger equipment. If you are ex-military and you have seen the world in a C-17 then this might not be as important to you.

 

[AlbieF15]

If you live in SEA or LAX, I think you need to run the numbers on a BAD upgrade flow (2-3 years in a SO spot, 1-2 junior FO, widebody at year 4 or 5), and see how happy you would be.

Who wouldn't be happy upgrading to a WB at year 2? It has happened--but like FJ pointed out timing is everything. It might happen--or it might slow down for a while. How happy would you be commuting to a crappy schedule or reserve in MEM for 2-3 years?

FJ teaches, and as a result holds some pretty good schedules on the panel at WB pay. I'm a few numbers higher than he is, but I couldn't hold any really "sweet" lines on an A300 that would be day/domestic flying similar to whay you probably do now at Alaska. I can hold some hodge-podge MD-11 trips but holding I CAN hold some decent day flying on the 727, but at a 20% discount to FJ's pay. However--we've been here for 5 years plus... We didn't get here overnight.

If you live in Alaska (or want to..), and flying 5-8 days international excites you--then the equation changes. You "probably" can get to AK in a year or two and you will be an MD11 F/O making good money. But--you won't have 3 on/4 off very much, you'll have the circadian issues crossing time zones, and you WILL NOT be fishing with your cell phone in your pocket as reserve goes senior up there. I bid ANC at 100% for almost 3 years however, and I couldn't hold it until I could hold the 727 right seat in MEM.

10-20 years--FedEx is PROBABLY a better deal. 5 Years--your Q of Life might not be as good.

On the other hand--catch a wave--like some of the 2003/2004 hires--and your on a WB year 2 making 6 figures....and boy...when its good its VERY good. You could drop 20% of your trips and still have as much money as you make now, and a lot more time off.

As mentioned--you are blessed if you get to have this choice. Good luck in any case...

 

[FedExFlyer]

Like Albie said......catch a wave and you're in GREAT shape. My gut feeling has another huge wave coming to FDX this summer. We are taking delivery of a ton of jets and I honestly dont think the age 60 thing will happen any time soon.

I was one of the lucky ones in the early 2004 hiring wave.......it's good to be lucky every now and then.

IMHO I think FedEx would be a great move. If you have 15-20 years or more left, I would make the move without hesitation.

Good luck................

 

[USMCFDX]

It is not always about the money. Your sked, QOL, retirement, etc, I think are more inportant.

If it was about the cash, Albie should have been serving me food as an RFO a long time ago.

 

[av8instyle]

IMHO I think FedEx would be a great move. If you have 15-20 years or more left, I would make the move without hesitation.

Good luck................

This is an interesting discussion and I'd like to throw a question out there to the peanut gallery...
I have been at Alaska 6 years. I live in ANC, which is a domicile for both companies. I was hired young enough that assuming I make it to 60 I will retire number 7, yes 7. If you were in these shoes would you still make a move to Fedex knowing you would be leaving an airline where most of your career you would be extremely senior?

 

[Falconjet]

Ok, I couldn't resist so I pulled out my old numbers to see how they stacked up with what I actually made at FedEx so far.

Even being as conservative as I was I still made less than I computed each year until hitting the widebody pay (to be expected since I used only narrow body pay rates).

So even being as conservative as I was I still over estimated the money I would make by 7K in year 3 and 8K in year 4. That is including everything I made at FedEx - per diem, excess life insurance, everything. The numbers are still pretty good, but I don't think they would compare too well to years 8-9 at AK.

Despite the numbers on this website our minimum annual guarantee is only 884 hours (eight 4 week bid months (68) and four 5 week bid months (85)). I usually use about 940 hours per year times the pay rate to estimate the annual income and that seems about right, once you can hold regular lines, as the average line guarantee is more like 72 per month (4 week) and 90 per month (5 week), at least in the Boeing.

Just another reason to use VERY conservative numbers and career expectations when looking at the financial impact of switching airlines.

FJ

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

This is an interesting discussion and I'd like to throw a question out there to the peanut gallery...
I have been at Alaska 6 years. I live in ANC, which is a domicile for both companies. I was hired young enough that assuming I make it to 60 I will retire number 7, yes 7. If you were in these shoes would you still make a move to Fedex knowing you would be leaving an airline where most of your career you would be extremely senior?

I agree, seniority is life in the airline world. How much of it are you willing to bet that Alaska Airlines will be around when you retire? Again, no one has the crystal ball. We are just dealing with odds here. It's a tough choice and big gamble. If I were a bettin' man, I'd bet on FDX. Billyboy Ayerlines is becoming more unstable day by day. Just my opinion.

 

[AlbieF15]

AV8,

Here's a goofball way to look at this....

Suppose you stay at AK, and in 5 years your company is bought out. 5 years later the merged comany goes T.U. How much would have made/saved/invested in those 10 years.

Suppose you join FDX. 10 years from now we lose our pension. (I know--I know--I HOPE it NEVER happens...) Our international flying is largely subcontracted by foreign carriers. How bitter would you be about that?

Now...in the meantime--where will you enjoy the next 10 years more? What other stuff can you do in your time off in ANC that will offset a loss in either case? Do you want to run a B&B, a charter service, or open a Jiffy Lube? Are there things you could do to secure you INCOME and SECURITY without giving up a great job and great seniority?

Running numbers on spreadsheet is one thing. Those numbers might show at year X the lines cross BUT what happens along the way is important too! For instance--if I'd have gone to JB in 2001 I would STILL be ahead financially as far a pure paycheck/earnings go, as I'd have been an A320 captain for about 4 + years, plus had stock options and profit sharing. However--the flexibility of FedEx has been awesome, I've made "almost" as much in salary, and I haven't ever lost a night of sleep wondering about the future/conditions of my company. I also live close enough to drive to work in pinch. So--the 5 year spreadsheet favored the upstart, the long term chart favored the Cargo carrier, but I've been HAPPY along the way and have enjoyed doing other things besides my airline gig (my business and the ANG...) Its not always just dollars, and sometimes the promise of more dollars later may never materialize. The guys who chose Alaska over United in 1999 "gave up" lifetime earnings...on paper. The reality is AK pilots have stayed working the whole time while their United brethren scrounged for work. The 777 pay rates don't mean much if you never get to fly them...

I cannot but imagine a sharp guy like you living in a place like AK cannot figure out something to do that will keep you happy and fed---even if (God forbid) Alaska Airlines should stumble. They've managed to last for a lot of years, and have a great record, so while ANY pax carrier has risks I think you are in a much better position than a lot of folks. I have several old friends there who I flew F-15s with years ago, and they laughed at the irony of their long term job stabilty while their buddies who went to secure places like United and American were out of work shortly after 9/11. It wasn't their plan, but that's how it worked out.

Rather than find another airline job to try to make me rest easy, I'd keep a great airline job and find another gig in another industry that I enjoyed..

 

[ferlo]

The answer to the "aviation problem" isn't another aviation job. I doesn't matter which carrier either. They all still have the same core problems. ie, what if you lose your medical...

Find life outside of aviation, if you still want to fly great. However, The ability to walk away is an awesome thing.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

I keep hearing "find a second career outside of aviation" but what I can't figure out is how do you guys do it? Between flying a full line, doing time in the reserves, and helping my wife raise young children, I for one don't have much time left. I suppose if I want to sacrifice family time, I can possibly start a business on the side but then, I got no $ for that either. Family is why I got out of active duty in the first place. I know... no excuses but reality is what it is. So, if you guys have any ideas, let's hear them.

 

[cgflyer]

I love this job flying boxes that Albie helped me get, and I was making six figures starting year 2, but I think that wave has mostly hit the beach. You're flying at a dream pax carrier getting more sleep in the same time zone.

Personally, I wouldn't leave AK for FX or FX for AK, a "bird in the hand" and all that. To me, money is no reason to bounce between majors. How do you feel sleeping at night vs day? We do get good time off at FX, but I spend at least a day after each trip sleeping or hanging out with my family like a zombie trying to recover.

Both companys are here for the long haul, at least that's the truth today, it may change tomorrow.

If your dead set on FX and have been through the process (it's taking over a year from meet and greet to interview right now) I am certain you can get a MD-11 in Anc on the first bid your here for.

 

[AlbieF15]

I keep hearing "find a second career outside of aviation" but what I can't figure out is how do you guys do it? Between flying a full line, doing time in the reserves, and helping my wife raise young children, I for one don't have much time left. I suppose if I want to sacrifice family time, I can possibly start a business on the side but then, I got no $ for that either. Family is why I got out of active duty in the first place. I know... no excuses but reality is what it is. So, if you guys have any ideas, let's hear them.

Everyone has a story, and everyone is different...but if you are really asking a question I'll give you a few of my thoughts...

First--you cannot take on another "job". What you CAN do is engage in one of your passions, and if one of those passions allows you to make a little extra money then good on ya. Do you skydive? Maybe you could buy a share in a twin otter or C182 and fly some divers out of strip on the weekends. Do you LIKE making or installing cabinets? Working on cars? Doing construction type work? Perhaps you could do some of the thinks you LIKE in your part time. Are you a solid weight lifter? Lots of folks want personal trainers. In other words--don't go looking for money--look for opportunities to perhaps make a little money doing something you already enjoy.

Choose something that you can include your family in during the process. For me--my wife is integral to our consulting business. Her work in and out of pageantry was a catalyst to the whole idea of a coaching business, and (as a lot of successful Jetblue, FedEx, and SWA clients can attest) she's a darn good coach in her own right. When we do a workshop out of town, very often Melissa is right there with me working with some of the clients. Usually the day before or after we are doing something fun with family. For instance--my mom lives in the Orlando area so any central Florida seminars involve spending time with my mom and letting her enjoy her grandkids.

I didn't start Emerald Coast to get rich or make money. I started it to help a few folks and make enough to offset the time I was giving up by working with folks. Well...things took off and we've been very blessed...and we've grown considerably. But my point is I didn't start off thinking this was be huge, but rather it was something I ENJOYED. Success will usually follow your passions...

Now--the next chapter. I have no idea how this one will turn out, but we just bought a huge horse farm/boarding facilty. Why? Well...for my first 18 years of life I was a huge horse fan, and that gene got passed to my girls. Even though I really haven't ridden a horse since college, my oldest daughter has been mesmorized by the creatures since before she could talk. I finally started them on some riding lessons last year, and discovered that this didn't appear to be a passing fad but rather true passion. Well...this horse facility has been for sale for over a year--I made an offer--and the rest is history. My goals for the facility are modest....I dont' expect to make any money on it for quite a while. But--while I am out there working--my girls will be out there working along side me or riding. The joy will come from being involved with my kids in a mutual passion... I think there is potential on this farm to make some money with boarding, lessons, and shows....as well as property appreciation. However--like the other business...I ain't in it to get rich. However, I think if we work on our passions success usually follows...

Now...if you are really are asking for advice...I'll give you 3 more tidbits...probably worth just what you pay for them.

I loved the military. I couldn't be what I am without it. However--you can easily pour every bit of your life and 14 hours a day into a sink that you just cannot plug. Take pride in what you do...but as a part-timer realize you are there to fly the equipment--and there are problems in the force you cannot solve. When I stopped trying to be an "active duty Major" after 2 years in the ANG and concentrated on doing my "niche" job of flying and teaching, life got a lot simpler. I tried to do all I did active duty when I was a part timer--for a while. When I went back to being "F15 IP" and not "Mr fix it" life was much easier and left me some time and emotional energy to tackle other challenges...outside of the force.

Second...dont' be afraid to fail. My wife has a passion for beauty pageants. We bought a franchise and back in 2002-2003 tried to put on some pageants in Alabama. In short--we lost our butts quickly. That was okay--we dusted ourselves off--laughed--and took our lessons learned. A lot of our Emerald Coast success came from the lessons we learned in that failure. Nobody bats 1000. You will swing and miss sometimes. Just try to set things up so one mistake can't take you out financially...don't bet the ranch on 1 great idea.

Finally--and this is personal...tithe. After years of not doing that, I realized before I left the AF that if I was ever going to start the time to do it was "right now". So...when I left active I started. I don't want to preach to anyone on an internet forum, but I can tell you our family has never struggled since we made that committment. We've worked hard--but there always seems to be more than enough to honor our committment and still live very comfortably. (I ain't pefect...I cuss, get frustrated, and do a lot of imperfect stuff. But...you ASKED how folks managed to make it work. I'm just sharing how it worked for us in our house...)

Sorry if we are wasting time better spent saying "Jetblue sucks", "military pilots are jerks", or other standard subject matter. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread....