FedEX HKG LOA is out, and boy is it funny...

[MalteseX]

Insulting

This LOA is not only INADEQUATE.

It's downright INSULTING. :laugh:

 

[Phaedrus]

Completely inadequate. Perhaps some day I'll go to a foreign domicile but not if something like this LOA gets past a pilot group.
Don't understand the different allowance for housing based on renting v. buying.
HHG shipment is ludicrous. A college grad couldn't move out of his dorm with those tares.
Way, way too many facets of overseas living not even addressed.
No way.
The conference call tomorrow should be worth a listen....

 

[LaidOffAgain]

Completely inadequate. Perhaps some day I'll go to a foreign domicile but not if something like this LOA gets past a pilot group.
Don't understand the different allowance for housing based on renting v. buying.
HHG shipment is ludicrous. A college grad couldn't move out of his dorm with those tares.
Way, way too many facets of overseas living not even addressed.
No way.
The conference call tomorrow should be worth a listen....

Wow great to hears these types of opinions! Hope it is shared by most in MEM! Wonder how the MEC and NC would feel when and if this gets voted down by a huge margin? "oh maybe we shouldn't have taken the company's first offer???" LOA

 

[TheBaron]

The problem is that when we vote it down (which I think is likely) the company will come up with a new "nugget" program to fill the bases. Some guy making sqaut at a regional would jump on the opportunity to be hired into the right seat of a wide body at FedEx. Of course, if it does somehow pass and not enough people bid it, they will still have to start another "nugget" program.

 

[DLax85]

The problem is that when we vote it down (which I think is likely) the company will come up with a new "nugget" program to fill the bases. Some guy making sqaut at a regional would jump on the opportunity to be hired into the right seat of a wide body at FedEx. Of course, if it does somehow pass and not enough people bid it, they will still have to start another "nugget" program.

I have heard this "argument" stated repeatedly, but does it actually make sense?

It's one thing to put a cherry-picked "golden nugget" into ANC in the RIGHT seat of a MD-11, but is the company really going to do that for both the LEFT and RIGHT seats in CDG & HKG??

If that was so advantageous to the company why would they even propose this LOA to begin with? --- just go direct to that game plan.

From mgmts perspective, is what we would be asking in a counter offer really that much more expensive to offeset the risks associated with running these FDAs with all "new hires"?

There are clear benefits to the company to have experience and continuity in these FDAs. I think they need and will sweeten the deal if they are confronted with that decision.

I think this was a very low ball offer that the MEC was premature in recommending to the masses --- we should decline and can do better.

A housing (and our COLA) based on exchange rates needs to added --- and upgraded, by at least double, to that equal to O-4 or O-5 housing allowances in the DOD, or some other relevant benchmark.

The HHG weights need to increase dramatically (...currently they are less then I received as a 2Lt going to Japan 21 yrs ago!) Once again, what benchmarks were used?

Medical and dental needs to be explicitly addressesed.

Quality English-based schooling needs to be addressed

This is actually a very classic low ball negotiating strategy on the company's part --- because if we turn it down and then the company comes back with even somewhat reasonable offers in
these areas, we will truly believe we are getting a much better deal, when in fact it won't be "gold plated" at all --- just equal to other benchmarked organizations.

Unfortunately, I think the process to date has already built distrust between mgt and the pilots regarding the QOL at these FDAs, and the folks who bid will still be very junior in the right seat --- looking for a quick upgrade....and empty nest Captains in the left seat --- looking for some adventure.

Of course, some wise old heads have told me --- never bid a new domicile or a new aircraft until you get a good look at a real bid pack --- and that will be very hard to do for quite some time.

If I had a vote --- I'd vote "NO"

(...looks like I'll miss the vote by about two weeks)

 

[HoursHore]

You only get a 3000lbs allowance when you move HHG back, which equates to like 3 rooms. Guess they already know how big a place you can get over there for what they are offering.

 

[stonewall]

I have no intention of going overseas, but I'm in the NO category.

And, while I DO acknowledge all the hard work the MEC and NC put into our last contract, I'm getting very weary of the MEC's "you don't appreciate me" emails. It's like they need a hug or something.

 

[AlbieF15]

I would appreciate seeing some of them back on the line.

 

[AC560]

I hear Shenzhen is nice this time of year...

Shekou is pretty decent if your single.

 

[LaidOffAgain]

I would appreciate seeing some of them back on the line.

Albie,

Not to mention being back on the line, If this LOA is such a great deal, then I think they should bid HKG and use that generous shipping allowance to move aaaa nothing I guess. And fill an apartment with that great 10k, oh and how do you get around? Well, non the less this is an awesome deal!? NOT!!

 

[Flytrap]

I think DLax is right on the mark. As someone who is about 3 months away from having a vote, I hope someone is voting NO for me. I was definitely very interested in 75's in CDG, but this LOA is awful. The military isn't the most generous when it comes to compensation, but their housing allowance and COLA makes this deal laughable (not to mention medical, schools, and tax advantage). The company can do better. As far as no bid until this thing is ironed out, I am looking forward to upgrading as much as anyone- but I am not willing to take a substandard deal to do it. Besides with 440+ S/O's, something has got to give. How long will the company let us sit on reserve not working and collecting a paycheck with the continued aquisition of widebodies and retirement of 72's? I look forward to reading the SFS rep's minority opinion.

 

[cgflyer]

Our union doesn't need your vote to make changes, they've proven that. I believe that if they feel this LOA will not pass with a yes vote, they will word it so that a yes or no vote is actually that which approves the LOA. Or at least try to confuse the actual issue.

Please vote yes or no..."Do you not agree that this LOA should not pass or that if it passes or not that your union representative should decide or not decide which way your vote was or not meant to go."

We are just worthless providers of funding for their fact finding trips abroad. (Yes, I might be a little bitter about the age 60 trick they played)

 

[Balut]

Our union doesn't need your vote to make changes, they've proven that. I believe that if they feel this LOA will not pass with a yes vote, they will word it so that a yes or no vote is actually that which approves the LOA. Or at least try to confuse the actual issue.

Please vote yes or no..."Do you not agree that this LOA should not pass or that if it passes or not that your union representative should decide or not decide which way your vote was or not meant to go."

We are just worthless providers of funding for their fact finding trips abroad. (Yes, I might be a little bitter about the age 60 trick they played)

Now that was funny

 

[instructordude]

The problem is that when we vote it down (which I think is likely) the company will come up with a new "nugget" program to fill the bases. Some guy making sqaut at a regional would jump on the opportunity to be hired into the right seat of a wide body at FedEx. Of course, if it does somehow pass and not enough people bid it, they will still have to start another "nugget" program.

Instructordude is ready to fly the heavies.

 

[LaidOffAgain]

I think DLax is right on the mark. As someone who is about 3 months away from having a vote, I hope someone is voting NO for me. I was definitely very interested in 75's in CDG, but this LOA is awful. The military isn't the most generous when it comes to compensation, but their housing allowance and COLA makes this deal laughable (not to mention medical, schools, and tax advantage). The company can do better. As far as no bid until this thing is ironed out, I am looking forward to upgrading as much as anyone- but I am not willing to take a substandard deal to do it. Besides with 440+ S/O's, something has got to give. How long will the company let us sit on reserve not working and collecting a paycheck with the continued aquisition of widebodies and retirement of 72's? I look forward to reading the SFS rep's minority opinion.

Minority report, no kidding and I bet the rose colored glass will be off when he writes that report!

Read section 6 of the contract and see how much we are giving up if we sign this LOA. Giving away the farm and the tractors!

 

[jtmpilot]

HMMM vote down the LOA...outcome ...they junior man you to hong kong and spend $300 a night for your hotel and 24hr a day per diem for 30 days.....
cost to the company $9000 a month for the hotel....
and $2200 a month in your pocket for per diem with no strings attached...... vs. $2700 a month for producing a lease in order to get paid.... sounds like a no brainer to me.....VOTE NO!!!!!!!! the company is sitting in the woods saying crap i hope these idiots take the $2700 a month option.........

 

[AlbieF15]

My biggest concern...

The more I look at D. Temporary Vacancies for HKG and CDG, the more concerned I get.

It looks to me like the company can send you involuntarily overseas for 3 bid periods every 18 bid periods, or 90-120 days ever year and a half.

All this talk of "well...we are screwing the JUNIOR folks" may be N/A. You may be screwing a lot of guys WHO AREN'T that junior into doing A300 FO flying in China who really don't want to be there--for the price of a hotel room, perdiem, and a coach ticket for family. Here's why:

First--I am not sure how USERRA affects this, but sending a guy with ANG/Reserve obligations creates a few problems. First--he/she has required drills, training, and events they must do. Second--there are likely some security issues. We've got an F-22 pilot and a 1 or 2 star general running around our campus....a former B-2 driver, etc. There may be some guys with security clearance issues. So--let's make assumption one--that some guys opt out of being "inversed" with military leave.

Next--you can only go once every 18 months. Suppose FDX needs 10 A300 FOs to fill out the China slots. They start at the bottom of the list. 3-4 opt out with military leave. We are now up to 14 from the bottom of this list. The company can inversley assign according the LOA "the most junior qualified pilots." Who is qualified? What if pilot 15 has a baby on the way, and pilot 16 has a special needs child? Who makes the call if they go? I suspect the ACP and CP would have to confer. Suppose they agree these guys don't need to go...who's next...now we are at 17 and 18 from the bottom. And guys...that is for THIS bid period of 3 bid periods. Guess what happens in 90-120 days? We start OVER...this time at Mr 18 from the bottom of the list. THIS HAS TO POTENTIAL TO AFFECT A LOT OF PEOPLE BESIDES THE BOTTOM 20%. You could end up working well up the list as guys came up with reasons--legitimate or otherwise--to opt out of going over. I can see no bigger morale destroyer than sending guys over out of seniority order, and having to involve union and company officals to decide who's "right" to go and who isn't. Think cubicile politics are nasty now? Imagine guys sucking up to CPs begging not to get sent. What would destroy unity quicker?

Since I've been at FDX, we have never really had junior manning. If you weren't on reserve, you didnt' have to fly if you didn't want to! This LOA changes all of that. How many of you former military guys sat around waiting for the shoe to drop on the next "bad deal" to the 90-120 day non flying gig? At least there you got a combat tax exclusion, which will save more money that the tax equalization proposed here. The big issue isn't money--its control! Do you really want to be called by your ACP and told "pack your bags, you are off to China for 3 months! Don't worry--mom and the kids can join you (if she doesn't work, gets all the kids their shots, finds someone to watch the house, take care of the pets, etc etc) and fly coach across the Pacific to join you in your hotel."

I think this ability to junior man the overseas bases is the most dangerous thing in a contract I've seen since I've been at FedEx. Think volunteers will suck up all these slots? What happens when the next bout of Bird Flu, SARS, terrorist strikes, or a move by China against Taiwan occur? Sure would stink to have to choose between leaving your family three months or losing your job.

For me--the more I read this--not "NO" but "HELL NO". And its not about the money. Keep the CBA as is and open your domiciles--but don't send us involuntarily.

And yes--I know they can inverse SIBA....it happened to me in 04 on the 727 (really!) But SIBA bidpacks allow you to come home every month, and are nothing like being stuck abroad. I'd compare the two to being stationed in theater like a KC-135 or an F-15, verses flying in and out of country in a C-17. Both are tough jobs, but the C-17 guy gets to kiss the wife and kids every couple weeks back home in Charleston or McChord. Those other guys are stuck away for a very, very long time.

 

[jtmpilot]

whenever the military gets more for any job than a civilian you know something is wrong!!! no saying the military doesnt deserve it, i was in the military and our COLA was always below par, so if the military is getting more COLA than we are...something is deffinetly wrong..... we would be better off not having FDA's, the company wants them so they can turn everything into a hub turn... i can see it now 12.9 hrs to hong kong on the MD11 sit for 36 hrs and 12.9 back, no more nice 72 hr sits in SYD.. that will be turns operated from hong kong.. all the good international flying will be run from the FDA's... another way to prevent the duty rig increase from being more money for the International guys... we will all be hub turning in the future... wether its long hub turns out of MEM or hub turns out of HKG and CDG... i say VOTE NO!!! and dont bid them either.... I cant satnd 20yrs of BORING FLYING!!!!!!!!!!

ALBIE i dont have a account for Airline P. cen. can you post this there for other to chew the fat with?... everytime i sign up it says i cant use an aol or yahoo email address and i dont want to use my work email to sign up....thanks man, im still sending guys your way when they ask me for interview assistance.....

 

[K-Mart]

I would bet more of this will be coming your guys way. FedEx is a growing international monster and it will need more crews overseas. Real good stuff and it pays well.

As far as guys with Security Clearances, it really shouldn't matter unless they are in a SCI/PRP program that forbids them. Hell there is an embassy in China and you have to have a TS/SCI. Food for thought.


I think all of this is really good news for you guys. Expansion plus international. I'm sure there will be some true freight dogs that would jump at a chance to live in HK or Paris for a few years. There has to be.

 

[HillbillyPilot]

Voting Yes to LOA? Two things you MUST know

ONE-- French: "Cet appartement est très gentil mais il est trop cher. Pourriez-vous me montrer un autre endroit à côté des voies de chemin de fer ou peut-être près de la centrale nucléaire ? Ces prix pourraient être plus agréables."


TWO-- Cantonese: "這棟公寓是非常好的，但它是太昂貴的。 您或許可能在鐵軌旁邊顯示我另一個地方或在核電站旁邊？ 那些價格也許是更加愉快的."


Translation: "This apartment is very nice but it is too expensive. Could you show me another place next to the railroad tracks or perhaps beside the nuclear power plant? Those prices might be more agreeable."

I suggest you print this page for future reference.