FedEX HKG LOA is out, and boy is it funny...

[skykid]

I'm voting NO to this LOA pos.

Me too.

 

[jtmpilot]

STV no way.... we dont want any part of junior manning on this property trust me...... were not in the freaking military anymore period!!!!!!!!!!! this is a civilian job d*** it!!!!!

 

[AdlerDriver]

When do we vote?

 

[jtmpilot]

23rd of July voting starts..... make sure its a NO and spread the word... junior manning is a disease and spreads rapidly once it gets into the contract.... it wont be just junior guys affected.... the company will look at sending the junior guy to CDG/HKG and then the junior guy has vacation...oops cant use him...then the next guy has training due...ooops cant use him either....the next guy just went over there for 3 months 10 months ago...ooops cant use him.... very quickly it effects senior guys too.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A bit of relativity....

You guys a have a great new CBA.

Democracy rules.... life is good...

 

[1stCivDiv]

Yep and we wanna keep it that way, by not letting them slide this steamy turd into it!

 

[Diesel]

bump....

 

[pipe]

A bit of relativity....

You guys a have a great new CBA.

Democracy rules.... life is good...

You want some relativity?

UA/DL Narrowbody FO makes about $145/hr 3rd yr in 2000

FDX Widebody FO makes about $130/hr 3rd yr in 2007

There are no inflation adjustments and FDX prints money compared to what those places ever did.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm pretty happy with things, but you wanted relativity.

I think a lot of people have convinced themselves (read MEC), that they did a lot better than they did.

PIPE

 

[AdlerDriver]

23rd of July voting starts..... make sure its a NO and spread the word... junior manning is a disease and spreads rapidly once it gets into the contract.... it wont be just junior guys affected.... the company will look at sending the junior guy to CDG/HKG and then the junior guy has vacation...oops cant use him...then the next guy has training due...ooops cant use him either....the next guy just went over there for 3 months 10 months ago...ooops cant use him.... very quickly it effects senior guys too.....

Guys - just a heads up to all here. I listened to a conversation in the sim building today conducted by mostly senior, Memphrican, instructor types. Their opinion was "Well, I'm not bidding it but I don't want to screw over the guys that will bid it by voting it down." ?????Wahhhhhh????
I think I actually said that and looked confused. Their reasoning was that they think the company can get by using the current provisions in the CBA and non-vol guys over there - so anything we can get over and above what we already have is gravy and a good deal.
Then they started laughing about all the junior backseaters in the 727 who would be falling all over themselves to get a left seat in the 757 at CDG.

I'm just the messenger passing along what I heard so put down the weapons.

 

[1stCivDiv]

Under the current CBA they cannot non-vol you over there. They can inverse you to a SIBA bid. But that is a hell of a lot better than the LOA in which they can send you over for 90 days, non-vol'd. Please get educated and READ the LOA and pass the word this thing sucks and if everyone would stop being so damn greedy and looking at the numbers instead of looking at the little 5 line paragraph they slipped in About STV....

 

[AlbieF15]

Pirep from Monday's meeting at hub...

Okay...first disclaimer. I rolled in late--with a bucketful of p1ss and vinegar. TonyC, Sleepy, and later BC were up along with Derek and a player I didn't recognize.

Facts first:

Lots of anger about SVT. Lots of concern about pay. Not one ringing endorsement of the LOA except from the dude in the second row who I remember as being a committee member or MEC rep earlier.

BC claims that "scope" and RLA provisions are the big reason to sign. Making flights that start and end overseas under RLA provisions is a huge step. His claim (IMHO a reach..) is that the agreement you sign in the FDA saying you agree to abide by RLA provisions will help solidify future scope battles.

SVT--BC and the crowd say "likely won't happen.." Those were put in to force flex/LCA guys that are 757 initial cadre to go to Paris if required to help spin up operations.

Money--union wanted more but says company will just say no. BC's take is you will eat into some of your budget if you go abroad--it won't be a housing allowance windfall. He claims its still enough to live comfortably...and mentioned a few HK neighborhoods he thought qualified. I'll reserve judgement--haven't been since 1976 so I'll defer to our MD-11 and Subic brethren.

BC says if you don't like it--don't bid it. But don't take $2700 from a guy who wants to go anyway.

Impressions now:

BC needs charm school. (Sometimes I do too...) Granted--he was in from a long international trip. For a guy who says he "doesn't care how we vote" he seems to take any concern on the LOA as a personal scathing attack. My own impression is BC was quite smitten with getting the Hong Kong base instead of the much less desirable mainland base. Rather than complaining about the duty pay for the ground transportation, he was thrilled he "got" the company to agree to not base pilots on the mainland and then pay them for a some of the ground trip. BC has "personalized" this campaign a bit and I think he is shocked by the backlash--and feels insulted. (Again--I'm not commenting except to say this is MY impression based on what I heard tonight). I think he thought he could sell this on the "excitement" of living abroad and the modest allowances. Now that the backlash is exploding in front of him, he's trying to find any reason to say "its still a good deal". RLA and scope are the straws he's grasping.

Some guys are listening to the scope argument. Some aren't. The more junior you are--the more you hate the SVT.

BC kept mentioning his long tenure here. During that time--I'll bet he was never "junior manned" or "inversed" 90 days away from home. I think part of the reason so many guys are stunned by the backlash is they haven't been in a place where you could be junior manned in a long, long time and have forgetten what is feels like to lose that control.

Suggestions and Recommendations:

I suspect the vote might be closer than the 82% no 18 % yes we see here on APC, but that as it is it will fail. If the union wants this to pass, they need to work with the company and tweak the SVT block. If they simply replaced "up to 3 bid periods" with "1 bid period" or "30 days", I think this thing would sail--money shortfalls aside. Draw a line through the coach tickets for families--and use the savings to send me home at the end of 30 days.

Speakers indicated going back to company is "risky". I would argue that if they want this to pass--so is going forward as is.

My take: Find a way to send me abroad for no more than 30 days at a time--and I'll support this effort. For now, my vote is still "NO". The potential improvements in the strength of our scope clause do not warrant me being separated from my family for 90 days...at any price.

Finally--if you are a union leader, and you are finding it harder and harder to deal with those you serve--perhaps its time to go back to the line and do that job you orginally loved so much. Union work is both voluntary and a service job. I grow weary of the "if you guys would do something instead of just throwing spears" whenever someone passes on legitimate complaints. Its hard to step up if those seats and committees are already full, so if the job is stressing you that much--move over. I'm sure there are some talented, service minded folks who will be glad to help as we move forward.

 

[Diesel]

Money--union wanted more but says company will just say no. BC's take is you will eat into some of your budget if you go abroad--it won't be a housing allowance windfall. He claims its still enough to live comfortably...and mentioned a few HK neighborhoods he thought qualified. I'll reserve judgement--haven't been since 1976 so I'll defer to our MD-11 and Subic brethren.

Sounds like he never asked for more money and just assumed that the company would say No.

The more and more I hear about this the more it sounds like one of those old time movie advertisements- fun, adventure, natives, Vote Yes.....

Ugh

Ps wasn't it proven that its going to cost you more to live over there than you make. So where is this money you're taking out of other pilots pockets? If anything by voting no you're keeping the money in their pocket.

 

[Diesel]

bump..............

 

[jonjuan]

STV no way.... we dont want any part of junior manning on this property trust me...... were not in the freaking military anymore period!!!!!!!!!!! this is a civilian job d*** it!!!!!

Huh? Many here are currently in the military.......

 

[jonjuan]

You want some relativity?


There are no inflation adjustments and FDX prints money compared to what those places ever did.

And those places in 2000 really didn't exist. UAL thought they "printed money" in 2000. China, India, Russia, and Brazil will get into the game in short time, unfortunately.

 

[Fox-Tree]

Huh? Many here are currently in the military.......

Many "where"?? WTF are you talking about?

No one interviewed and got hired at Fedex with the provision that it would someday become similar to the military. Even if some of us choose to continue to serve in the Guard or Reserves, that doesn't mean it's okay to turn this job into the civilian equivalent.

 

[AV80R]

...No one interviewed and got hired at Fedex with the provision that it would someday become similar to the military...

Then again, since (supposedly) the vast majority of purple pilots are ex-military maybe the transition won't be this hard? Sorry, folks just a joke, really!

 

[F18-FDX]

Money--union wanted more but says company will just say no. BC's take is you will eat into some of your budget if you go abroad--it won't be a housing allowance windfall. He claims its still enough to live comfortably...and mentioned a few HK neighborhoods he thought qualified. I'll reserve judgement--haven't been since 1976 so I'll defer to our MD-11 and Subic brethren.

BC says if you don't like it--don't bid it. But don't take $2700 from a guy who wants to go anyway.

But a guy that wanted to go anyway won’t get the $2700 if he actually wanted to “move” there.

The problem is you only get the $2700 if you take the “enhanced option”, where the F*** is the enhancement? This needs to be IN ADDITION to the FDA option in the contract, but as the LOA is written you take one or the other. Bottom line is you cannot move a family, or even a single household with the enhanced option. You get no car, no move to speak of (500 lbs=clothes & books or kitchen stuff).

I lived in France for 3 years with the military and I know what I’m talking about. Your seed money will be gone immediately with deposits and commissions on your housing. Then you need to buy all new appliances, and then you need to re-furnish your house or apartment. You will absolutely need a car if you live outside the city far enough to be affordable (in European terms, that is), and if you live in Paris and plan to use public transportation (which is excellent) housing will cost BIG bucks. And by the way...public transpo. doesn't go to the FedEx Hub.

On a purely monetary level (excluding problems w/SVT) this thing would be almost acceptable if they just added these bennies onto the contract FDA package, in other words, you get a household move, car and some help with housing. I just read the minority opinion and he has it mostly right, but since he’s mostly talking about HKG, he fails to mention the need for Cost of Living Allowance tied to the exchange rate. The dollar is at an all-time low against the Euro, and you would take an immediate 20% pay cut just with the exchange rate. On top of that, I can tell you that EVERYTHING is more expensive in Europe, to the tune of 10-20%, even more in the city of Paris.

Basically you are taking a buying power cut of 40%. There is no question that it will cost anyone, big-time out-of-pocket with the current offer.

This thing's a turd...flush it.

 

[ilandopr]

It was 20% Last Year!

I just read the minority opinion and he has it mostly right, but since he’s mostly talking about HKG, he fails to mention the need for Cost of Living Allowance tied to the exchange rate. The dollar is at an all-time low against the Euro, and you would take an immediate 20% pay cut just with the exchange rate. On top of that, I can tell you that EVERYTHING is more expensive in Europe, to the tune of 10-20%, even more in the city of Paris.

Just did a trip to FRA last month. Give "the man" a hundred bucks and get 71 Euros in return. That's 29%!
You would come out ahead by staying in the right seat of the MD-11.

 

[ilandopr]

Vote No!!!

Vote No!

 

[F18-FDX]

You would come out ahead by staying in the right seat of the MD-11.

Yes, I speak French but No, I'm not a moron. My standing bid is in, and it doesn't include the 757. But if this LOA passes it sets a really bad precedent...vote NO.

 

[ilandopr]

Vote No!!!

Yes, I speak French but No, I'm not a moron. My standing bid is in, and it doesn't include the 757. But if this LOA passes it sets a really bad precedent...vote NO.

NOTHING THAT I WROTE IMPLIED THAT I CALLED YOU A MORON. WOW! YOU ARE WOUND UP WAY TOO TIGHT.
THOUGHT WE WERE ON THE SAME SIDE.

 

[Gummo]

Just did a trip to FRA last month. Give "the man" a hundred bucks and get 71 Euros in return. That's 29%!
You would come out ahead by staying in the right seat of the MD-11.

I don't get this. I keep hearing this in discussions of the FDA and it doesn't make any sense (or cents). France is not expensive because the Euro exchanges at 71 cents to the USD. It's expensive, but that is not why. The Hong Kong dollar exchanges at 7.8 to the USD and that sure doesn't make Hong Kong cheap!

Exchange rates have no direct bearing on the cost of living normalized to the USD. Yes, Europe is expensive and has gotten more so for us as the dollar has slide in relation to the Euro. The change in the exchange rate over the past 4-5 years is indicative of the changing relative costs of many commodities and services, and any short term change is going to be directly felt as a change in dollar costs to visit Europe. But many things were more expensive in Europe than the US even when the Euro was below the USD, and you sure can't say that it is 29% more expensive now just based on the exchange rate.

France is expensive because of high taxes, anti-competitive regulations and business practices, inefficient infrastructure, and an inclination to socialist government policies. The exchange rate has gone in the crapper, because of high oil prices, our uncontrollable hunger for foreign goods, and emerging concerns by foreign (and domestic) investors that our economy is going into a long-term slide due to unrestrained gov't spending and our entanglement in an intractable conflict in the Middle East.

Thanks for listening - now vote NO.

 

[DLax85]

I don't get this. I keep hearing this in discussions of the FDA and it doesn't make any sense (or cents). France is not expensive because the Euro exchanges at 71 cents to the USD. It's expensive, but that is not why. The Hong Kong dollar exchanges at 7.8 to the USD and that sure doesn't make Hong Kong cheap!

Exchange rates have no direct bearing on the cost of living normalized to the USD. Yes, Europe is expensive and has gotten more so for us as the dollar has slide in relation to the Euro. The change in the exchange rate over the past 4-5 years is indicative of the changing relative costs of many commodities and services, and any short term change is going to be directly felt as a change in dollar costs to visit Europe. But many things were more expensive in Europe than the US even when the Euro was below the USD, and you sure can't say that it is 29% more expensive now just based on the exchange rate.

France is expensive because of high taxes, anti-competitive regulations and business practices, inefficient infrastructure, and an inclination to socialist government policies. The exchange rate has gone in the crapper, because of high oil prices, our uncontrollable hunger for foreign goods, and emerging concerns by foreign (and domestic) investors that our economy is going into a long-term slide due to unrestrained gov't spending and our entanglement in an intractable conflict in the Middle East.

Thanks for listening - now vote NO.

OK...let's keep it simple:

Relative Non-Housing Cost Indexes for the cities in question with Memphis indexed at 100 (...NYC added for reference).

Memphis = 100
New York = 140
Paris = 143
Hong Kong = 153

Of the top 15 most expensive cities in the world, Hong Kong is #5, Paris is #13 and NYC is #15.

Much needs to be fixed in the LOA .... vote "No"

 

[Ninerfan]

CDG Schedule

Just flew with one of the SIG fellas. His intial hack on the 757 CDG flying is that it will be very commuter unfriendly. Thus, the co. wanted to keep the 100nm rule intact. Another reason not to bid it.

Separately, I am voting no on the LOA.

 

[Diesel]

bump.....

 

[propjob27]

You are bumping the wrong thread:

This one needs to be read more:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=100955

Contains a great Box Stuffer too.

GET THE WORD OUT

 

[Scarabus]

I want to know who is getting paid to get fedex to mess with the expat tax exemption? It's sad the cathay and emirates is out doing the home team when it comes to this money issue for taxes, housing, and schools for your kids.

 

[Diesel]

Bump em' all I say.

For those that say "I'm too senior for it to affect me." Or, "If the MEC votes yes so do I."

Should practice those lines infront of the mirror so when you get informed that you're spending 3 months in HKG and costing your family money you can say it with a straight face to your spouse.

 

[El Pobre]

Just Voted NO.. I hope alot of others do to. I can't believe that our union says that this isn't concessionary. Any pilot going to Paris is taking a 35% paycut right off the bat.

No Cola...even the military isn't this bad. I hope this gets voted down by a significant margin and gets fixed now. Otherwise we'll have to fix it during our next contract negotiations at the expense of 1) QOL, 2) Pay, 3) Retirement, 4) Work Rules.....you pick which one you want to sacrifice to fix this substandard LOA in the future.