Favorite words of a new Lear 24 F/O

[Jedi_Cheese]

As someone who operated corporate jets out of uncontrolled fields for five years, I can tell you that there are a number of reasons to announce your initial taxi, crossing runways, and, of course, your takeoff.

What good does an initial taxi call do? Everyone is crawling around at under 5kts in the ramp area and once you are out on a taxiway, you should be able to see far ahead of you. Anyone that hits something while taxing should be ashamed of their subpar skills.

Many pilots only fire up their radio just prior to taking the runway, completely unaware that there is a jet who has been reporting his approach to the runway (or a longer, intersecting runway) for the last 20 miles (a mile goes pretty fast at 4-5 miles per minute). Also, how do you even know your radio works? Or that your mike is plugged in, or not shorted?

I know my mike and headset work because I check them when my headset comes on. A simple "testing 1 2" for everyone wearing a headset that is plugged in will confirm that my mike and earphones work. If I am finished with my runup and am not hearing the people in the pattern, asking someone for a radiocheck will confirm I can transmit and hear others. Most modern radios have an icon that lights up when you transmit and thus you can verify that you are at least trying.

I would hope you aren't going 5 miles a minute because then I would have to report you for breaking the speed limit below 10,000ft. This is not to mention that I can takeoff and get on downwind within the 5-6 minutes you need to get closer to the runway and land. Sorry, it's my runway too and it would be foolish of me to hold short while you complete your 20 mile final.

About your intersecting runway comment, while a 15kt crosswind is an acceptable tradeoff for an extra 4k ft, the other guys in the pattern might think differently.

Always remember that you could be sharing the airspace and runway with the 25hr student pilot solo that doesn't know where the instrament checkpoints are and has no clue how fast your jet moves. Who you are, where you are, and what you want (assuming you want something if it isn't very obvious) should be included in every radiocall.

 

[501261]

What good does an initial taxi call do? Everyone is crawling around at under 5kts in the ramp area and once you are out on a taxiway, you should be able to see far ahead of you. Anyone that hits something while taxing should be ashamed of their subpar skills.

Look Ty is spot on with his taxi call; I like to hear it because it gives me an idea of what’s going on at the airport. Basically it gives me 2 notices that an airplane is going to takingoff at that airport in the near future. It’s very easy to miss a radio call or have one blocked especially on 122.8.

I would hope you aren't going 5 miles a minute because then I would have to report you for breaking the speed limit below 10,000ft.

Really, any idea what 250 IAS, is at 10,000? Well usually the FMS shows somewhere around 300 at 10 and 250. Let me see how many miles per minute is 300, that’s right 5! Throw in a little winter tail wind and you might be doing 6 miles a minute below 10,000 and still be perfectly legal under 91.117a.

This is not to mention that I can takeoff and get on downwind within the 5-6 minutes you need to get closer to the runway and land. Sorry, it's my runway too and it would be foolish of me to hold short while you complete your 20 mile final.

Really, so you would knowingly violate 91.113? “(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface”? See the kind of problems you can run into when you start to threaten reporting people?

About your intersecting runway comment, while a 15kt crosswind is an acceptable tradeoff for an extra 4k ft, the other guys in the pattern might think differently.

There can be a number of reasons why an airplane has to use a different runway, it happens. If everyone is curtious in the pattern its no big deal. It might seem weird that a jet has to make a crosswind/or even downwind landing opposite of traffic, but you can be pretty sure that there are some very good operational reasons calculated via ultranav or the FMS that require those kind of operations

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks for an articulate response. I think it will probably be wasted on a FlightSim2000 Top Gun like Cheese-Boy.

There is considerable bleed over on many CTAF frequencies, and it is easy to miss the fact that Cheese Boy just departed RWY 18 when you're on the ILS to 36.

The taxi call is one more opportunity to be heard and seen. If I have heard someone call taxing out, and haven't heard anything else, then I know I may have missed the call as they departed, and if I know which runway they taxied out to, I have a better idea where to look for them

Note to Cheesy:

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Note to Tony C.- dangerous attitudes is the common thread in this string, and Cheese-Boy's inability to see the big picture is dangerous in my opinion, as is his insistance that the less safe method is the better one, but hey, we're all different.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

501261
Really, so you would knowingly violate 91.113? “(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface”? See the kind of problems you can run into when you start to threaten reporting people?

Why are you calling a 20 mile final when the AIM clearly states that that recomended procedure is tuning the radio 10 miles out? Plus, if you are IFR (I assume part 135), you are on final when you are FAF inbound.

The point I am trying to make is that if you want to get down to it, if the FAA nitpicks enough they could ground you on every flight you make for the stupidest **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Cheese,

Please wake up and start making those "stupid" initial taxi calls..

"Whats the use" you say?....

So that guys like myself with "subpar skills" (as you say) can keep track of you dumba$$es when we have to operate out of uncontrolled airports..

Appreciate it.

 

[NoName]

where can ya get entertainment like this!

youve got legalsuperdude calling people everything under the sun. his first time he gets in a jet, he's gonna call his buddies in the cab when someone goes 251 below 10.

then youve got topgunmav 400 super airline payer pilot in a b1900 talking about v1 cuts and "airline" talk.

this is just all to funny and i love it!

if he is like most his a/c recog skills are horrible and it was probably an F15! I sure am glad those tower guys had their camcorders out.


Continue PLEASE!

 

[350DRIVER]

then youve got topgunmav 400 super airline payer pilot in a b1900 talking about v1 cuts and "airline" talk.

BUT... he is a well trained first officer at Tab where they are put through the ringer and they must prove themselves prior to being line qualified.


carry on....


3 5 0

 

[pilotman2105]

Cheese,

Please wake up and start making those "stupid" initial taxi calls..

"Whats the use" you say?....

So that guys like myself with "subpar skills" (as you say) can keep track of you dumba$$es when we have to operate out of uncontrolled airports..

Appreciate it.

Uncontrolled airports are just what they are. Pilots are suppose to see and avoid each other. That does not place the burden on "Cheese boy" to make taxi calls, nor does it place the burden on yourself. You each are responsible to avoid each other.

Now then, your request that "Cheese boy" make a taxi call is no different than his request that you not call a 20 mile final and expect to get in.

You're both pilots and "professionals." You both have responsibility. Stop trying to point the blame.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

nobody is looking for "priority" by calling in 20 miles out.

Its not just "see and Avoid" as you say...Its SPEAK UP and let others know where you are. Stop talking about the weather today and the new spark plugs you just dialed into the ole' Cherokee....just let others know what you are and what you intend to do.

The reason for all the calls is because we know we are going into an airport environment that is filled with the likes of Cheese Boy - and thats downright scary sometimes!

I can handle the weekend warrior who lets me know what he's doing.....its the inexperienced,unpredictable guy who goes by his own rules that scares me.

 

[CDVdriver]

Ace of the base...LOL..that is funny.
Anyway ,let's continue the saga..shame to let it stop here....
Ok the guy was flying a plane registered to a private individual, not wearing any of the SKYGOD regalia so it's fair to think he's the owner. The way he was kissin' & hugging his pax let me to believe they where his own family.
Meaning he does not operate according to any SOP's so therefore cannot "defer" a preflight.
No did not count the seats myself, but rest assured looked up the tail # and the specs and c'mon the plane did not have the seats for the pax. (Why do you keep arguing about that point?)
His lack of preflight did not install any great impression to begin with, let alone what happened later.
The airport here is regularly visited by the FAA who will ramp check pretty much everybody.
Rest assured they would have nailed him to the wall if they'd seen this.
And please not everybody knows about free wheeling jet engines and your spec company ops regarding nav. lights.
So if you please..a little less arrogance would suit you better.
If I'm not mistaken (somebody will prove me wrong now) everybody started out flying SE not knowing diddly about anything else.
Does not mean the're always wrong though.
Ace of the base..should I add that now below my avatar?
Hahaha......

 

[Gulfstream 200]

"ace of the base"...."asst chief 141"...

its all good.

 

[ShawnC]

Gulfstream 200,

As long as you have your eyes outside the cockpit looking for other aircraft you're doing the right thing in my book.

But some people may not agree with you on making taxi calls, particularly on a busy unicom, that doesn't make them unsafe, as long as they have the radio on (if so equipped).

 

[CDVdriver]

well that's what I do...I'm sure sometime later I'll be able to change it to FO or something..
And Oh Ace of Base is just there for sarcastic reasons..will be gone in a day or 2.

 

[pilotman2105]

nobody is looking for "priority" by calling in 20 miles out.

Its not just "see and Avoid" as you say...Its SPEAK UP and let others know where you are. Stop talking about the weather today and the new spark plugs you just dialed into the ole' Cherokee....just let others know what you are and what you intend to do.

The reason for all the calls is because we know we are going into an airport environment that is filled with the likes of Cheese Boy - and thats downright scary sometimes!

I can handle the weekend warrior who lets me know what he's doing.....its the inexperienced,unpredictable guy who goes by his own rules that scares me.

You bring a very valid point, but at the same time that you request him to make a call, you should be making a call as well. (Not saying that you aren't... just stating the obvious)

And I do believe that the underlying principle to all types of separation, regardless of airspace, ATC or no-ATC, etc. is see and avoid. AIM 5-5-8. This would be especially true at uncontrolled airports. If it isn't JUST see and avoid, then how do you expect someone without a radio to operate at the airport (I realize that is somewhat out of the context of the discussion, as we are talking about people that do have radio, but that example illustrates the point that see-and-avoid is a principle that applies at all times.

Originally posted by 501261
There can be a number of reasons why an airplane has to use a different runway, it happens. If everyone is curtious in the pattern its no big deal. It might seem weird that a jet has to make a crosswind/or even downwind landing opposite of traffic, but you can be pretty sure that there are some very good operational reasons calculated via ultranav or the FMS that require those kind of operations

I was in the pattern about a week ago when a Hawker taxiied onto the runway and departed downwind, against traffic, with a C152 on less than a half-mile final. C152 made all "required" calls, as did the Hawker. C152 had to go-around, and despite a thorough lashing by the 3 or so other pilots in the pattern, the Hawker just went on about its way. What his reasons for departing downwind, against traffic, and essentially busting 91.113 were, I have no idea.

The point of the story is that you can follow regs to the letter but then still be a complete a$$. Courtesy along with an understanding that not everyone has the same experience as yourself (total time or otherwise) can go a long way at uncontrolled airports.

 

[Rick1128]

There can be many reasons for the jet departing that way. Noise abatement procedures, airport policy, performance requirements and so on. It may come as a surprise to some, but depending on the runway requirements, it is sometimes to the pilot's advantage to depart crosswind or even downwind. It comes as a surprise to many pilots when they do performance problems.

 

[Ty Webb]

Uh, maybe because that gives YOU a "heads-up" during your taxi-out or pattern work that someone is going to be entering the pattern in a few short minutes and NOW is the time to think about coordinating? Of course, this only works when you have your radio on and are communicating?

Second thought- forget about it. You have too much to learn and it's not my job to teach you.

Have a nice life. . . . . and thank god for TCAS. You do turn yuour transponder on, with all that juice you're saving by not announcing your position, aren't you?

 

[DC4boy]

What do you call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?





A good start.


Thank you............

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Ty Webb
Uh, maybe because that gives YOU a "heads-up" during your taxi-out or pattern work that someone is going to be entering the pattern in a few short minutes and NOW is the time to think about coordinating? Of course, this only works when you have your radio on and are communicating?

Second thought- forget about it. You have too much to learn and it's not my job to teach you.

Have a nice life. . . . . and thank god for TCAS. You do turn yuour transponder on, with all that juice you're saving by not announcing your position, aren't you?

I am glad that most of the corprate guys that fly into my home airport aren't transients. They at least have some manners unlike you.

Our regional airline has a good working relationship with the flight school. When they are inside the beacon (6 mi out), our guys will extend downwind and not do takeoffs in front of them. In return, they will do circle to lands when the weather is nice and not f*ckup the whole traffic pattern when they shoot the ILS and traffic is going the other way.

Tit for tat, everyone wins and is safer for it.

 

[TonyC]

Note to Tony C.- dangerous attitudes is the common thread in this string, and Cheese-Boy's inability to see the big picture is dangerous in my opinion, as is his insistance that the less safe method is the better one, but hey, we're all different.

Ty-

I agree with your opinion about making radio calls. I'm sure you'll agree that it takes some understanding of aviation to appreciate the importance of that call - - it's not obvious to a casual observer.

The aileron roll, or whatever you want to call it, WAS obvious to the most casual of observers. All observers were justified in reporting it. My defense for the observer ends there. I'll not impune his judgment based upon his inability to assign the correct maneuver name, nor will I comment on his attitude, perceived or otherwise, on this thread.

I just think comparing the radio call and the aileron roll is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Jmmccutc]

Please wake up and start making those "stupid" initial taxi calls...

just my $.02, at my airport, we have about 20 A/C that depart every 1.5-2 hours,for training purposes...we don't make these calls simply becuse it would jam up the radio frequency...we also have procedures that compensate for this such as everyone taxis the same direction...however, when i fly to another airport, i always make the call, this way like stated before, no one will run into me...

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Holy crap! This thread's still going? I went and played 18 holes only to come back and find something like 40 new posts...unbelievable

 

[LJDRVR]

HOLY CRUD!!!

Wow,

I go to class at a new airline on Monday and look what happens while I'm gone! In an attempt to answer the first poster's question, here's what a pilot's first Learjet takeoff sounds like right as the gear comes in the well:

wwwwWWSSSSHHHHHHHHH...

(Sound of increasing wind noice as airspeed accelerates.)

*DING*

(Sound of altitude alerter, 1000' to go, with jet now climbing in excess of 4000 fpm.)

*THUNK/BUZZZZZ*

(Sound of thrust levers being slammed to idle, setting off gear horn.)

*DING*

(Altitude alerter as jet passes 300' above assigned altitude.)

"#*!@!!"

*SWEESWEESWEESWEE*

(Overspeed warning as jet passes throught 307 Knots indicated.)

What has no sound effect is the weightlessness onboard as the neophyte attempts to return quickly to the initially assigned altitude.

Three weeks away from the Learjet cockpit and I miss her a lot. But not the lifestyle.

 

[JohnDoe]

SDVdriver:

"No did not count the seats myself, but rest assured looked up the tail # and the specs and c'mon the plane did not have the seats for the pax. (Why do you keep arguing about that point?)"



Well, there you have it folks. SDVdriver, by his own admission, said he called the FAA on this guy because he was flying with too many people in the aircraft. But he NEVER actually saw how many seats were physically in the aircraft. You looked up the "specs" of the aircraft?? WTF? You are really showing you jet aircraft ignorance now. Citations of the same exact type, can have any different number and configuration of seats. And it could have changed any number of times since it left the factory. Face it, you have absoulutely no clue how many seats were in the aircraft. You are grasping at straws here.

As far as why I keep arguing that point....Well, you said you called the FAA on this guy because you think he didn't have enough seats. But you never actually saw inside the aircraft! All you have are your assumptions. What I and others are trying to point out is that there could have been enough seats. There is no "standard" configuration that ALL citations of the same type have.

Again with the preflight, do you actually know that he didn't do a more detailed one earlier in the day? Or is this another one of your uneducated assumptions?

quote:
"And please not everybody knows about free wheeling jet engines and your spec company ops regarding nav. lights.
So if you please..a little less arrogance would suit you better.
If I'm not mistaken (somebody will prove me wrong now) everybody started out flying SE not knowing diddly about anything else."

That is pretty much my ENTIRE POINT TO YOU!! YOU DON'T KNOW! You don't know! You have posted zero facts to back yourself up. You have shown that you know absolutely nothing about citations (you said he didn't do a proper preflight because you have "seen" a citation preflight done before for crying out loud). Have you ever even been in a citation?? You DON"T know about this stuff......yet you called the FAA to rat on a guy that you THINK was acting improperly!!

I think I've made my point. I am sure that any of the professional pilots (who might actually have time in citations, and have ACTUAL knowledge of them) reading your posts can see right through to the truth.

 

[Jetsetter]

CDVDriver

CDVDriver....

Let me get this straight. You tried to turn in a fellow pilot, based on what you thought was the correct number of seats in an aircraft you have never even been in or flown????

I would have to agree with JohnDoe. That is an extremely unfair thing to try and do to a fellow pilot.

How would you feel if someone called the FAA on you, because they thought you were, maybe a little over gross on a hot day???

I know I would be really pissed...flying is how I put food on the table for my family, and I suspect you also fly to feed your family. So to have some half-wit turn me in for absolutely nothing is just wrong!!!!

BTW. I have a few thousand hours of Citation time, and it is fairly common to to a complete pre-flight before the first flight of the day and then do less complete walk arounds at intermediate stops....please don't call the FAA on me for that....just kidding

 

[Boeingman]

Dirt, how old are you? You aren't commercial yet. Did you go to college?

Rather than give me a BS quote of some "guy" or "magazine" that told you that a Texas law may or may not have existed, can you find me the particular TX statute on point?

I can.

Go back to polishing your knob...Then, perhaps you will be able to see your reflection, and see what a loser you are.

Eagle. In my other life outside the airlines, my business requires that I deal with lawyers on a constant basis. Your language and tone do not sound like anything that the legal community would embrace or produce.

A piece of advice that will probably be ignored.

Flame away.

 

[flyifrvfr]

Minh,

No problem dude. I hate them because they have made insurance premiums and operating costs outrageous in the U.S. Most people hate them because they bill too high. But, as one who just spent $160,000 on law school in the Beantown, and am spending another $10k just to take the California Bar in July, which will allow me to do nothing more than give me the opportunity to find an aviation law job where I can defend pilots, operators, and airports, I hope that I can recoup some of that.

It sounds like you are trying to recoup some of it through the accused. Did you send the accused a business card and tell them you will defend them against the allegations you witnessed and reported. I can read, I know you are not yet a lawyer but it sounds like you are practicing for future business. You are bragging about what you have done and when questioned you revert to name calling. You have a good racket going on, witnesss something, report it, and defend the accused as thier attorney, I should have thought of it first.

 

[idleclamp]

Let me get this straight. This guy did a roll right after takeoff, then climbed at a 45 degree deck angle, at 4,000fpm? Was he doing it single-engine? That would be gutsy.

 

[jergar999]

Thank you, LJDRVR...

for acurately recreating the first takeoff in a Lear and so eloquently putting it into words.

 

[TurboS7]

I havn't read all the threads but I thought I would pass on this story. I was flying a LR-24 from FXE to PIE. I had a new FO,(ex-Convair pilot) we took off and zipped over there in about 30 minutes or so. When we arrived a mechanic came up to me rather upset. He was a friend of the FO and the FO hadn't even said hi to him and we have been on the ground for twenty minutes. I said Oh don't worry he looks like he is here but the reality is that he hasn't arrived yet, give him about another hour or so.