Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Farken Ag Pilot!

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Yeah Rat him out.. Thats good.


Now I'm not exactly old school, and am probably in the age group with the majority of you (26) or older, but when I started flying my instructor told me about reg's and rules etc.., but, the only one he emphasized on was not in the regs or available at the FSDO.

NEVER RAT OUT ANOTHER PILOT. PERIOD.

Immelman, that kind of talk is grounds for dismissal...
 
DC4boy said:
Yeah Rat him out.. Thats good.


Now I'm not exactly old school, and am probably in the age group with the majority of you (26) or older, but when I started flying my instructor told me about reg's and rules etc.., but, the only one he emphasized on was not in the regs or available at the FSDO.

NEVER RAT OUT ANOTHER PILOT. PERIOD.

Immelman, that kind of talk is grounds for dismissal...


Kinda like not ratting out the guy who pulls out of a bar at 1am in front of ya, nearly hit em, and the you're behind him for the next 60 miles, 50 of which are on an interstate and he's all over the road....................

right?



Just leave the guy alone, hopefully he won't kill someone..........someone you love........


Hey we can go a step further, and really go overboard.............how about not doing anything about stinky Jihad Joe who just wanted to learn how to take off. Just a crazy guy with a lot of money, right?
 
Without delving into the issue of whether returning to load is a dispensing or nondispensing activity, it should be pointed out that 137.29 is not carte blanche to deviate from any and all of the provisions of Part 91. It is authorization to "................ deviate from the provisions of part 91 of this chapter without a certificate of waiver, as authorized in this subpart...." In other words, Part 137 cites specific regulations which 137 operators are authorized to deviate from and describes the requirements for those deviations. The authorized deviations from traffic patterns are in 137.45 which reads in part:


"..............At an airport without a functioning control tower, the pilot in command may deviate from the traffic pattern if --
(d) The aircraft at all times remains clear of, and gives way to, aircraft conforming to the traffic pattern for the airport.

All we have is Matt's description of the event. If we reject the rationale that Matt *must* be wrong, because he has only 250 hours, and the ag pilot *must* be in the right, becuase he is an ag pilot, (and I would hope that all would see the idiocy of this reasoning, although several posts seem to be based exclusively on this mindset and little else) we pretty much are left with his version of what happened. None of us were there, so we have no basis for discounting his description. In that case, it seems pretty clear that the ag pilot was not complying with his obligations under 137.45.

According to the only information we have, the ag pilot did *not* remain clear and give way to aircraft conforming the the traffic pattern.

Unless someone has actual knowledge (as opposed to groundless speculation) of the event which shows matt's version to be in error, we are left with the inescapable conclusion that the ag pilot was in the wrong here.

As for the radio issue, the idea that somhow an ag pilot is physically incapable of using a radio is nothing short of laughable. I have to think really hard to recall when I've had to remove my hand from a stick or yoke to make a radio transmission. A yoke or stick mounted transmit button is a very simple, common thing. Yes I have flown a few planes which didn't have one, and I was required to use a handheld mike. It was possible, I don't have 3 hands. Would it be a good thing to do while on a swath? obviously not. Is it a physical impossibility (or even slightly difficult) while approaching an airport to land. Just as obviously, No. It is well within the capabilities of anyone who poseses a third class medical to remove your hand from the throttle, pick up the microphone, and use it. The thottle will not suddenly go to idle. The airplane will not suddenly stop flying and plummet from the sky.

The idea that a radio *shouldn't* be used merely because it isn't required is equally fallacious. Yes I know about NORDO aircraft, I've flown them myself. I expect them at uncontrolled airports. I look for them, as I look for any traffic.

The reality though is that the human eye is not 100% effective at detecting other airplanes, no matter how skillfully and dilligently it is used. Couple that with the fact that most of airspace surrounding an airplane is not physically viewable from the cockpit, and you are left with the reality that no matter how well you scan for traffic, it is not humanly possible to detect all collision hazards.

Yes, communicating without looking is poor practice.

I would agree that looking without communicating would be better.

It should be obvious that looking *and* communicating is better than either of the previous two scenarios.

Personally, I don't like radios, I think they're a pain, always have. But I would have to question the thought process of somone who would conciously chose to place themselves in the "looking but not commuicating" category when the means were at hand to easily be in the preferable "looking *and* communicating" category. It doens't make sense.
 
avbug,

Recently the respect I once had for you has been going down the drain, and you've just hit rock bottom. Usually you're the first one to advocate safety, what happened to this here?

What the AG pilot did, even if legal was not safe. Radio are not necessary, but they sure help. As much as I look arround for traffic, I still miss a lot (eyes can only see so far and can only scan one part of the sky at the time). When I hear someone on the radio, most of the time there are so far away that it would be imposible to see them, but I can already alter my flying to accomodate them when they'll be close by. As much as you want to appear as the "malboro man" (free as a bird, cool as ...), you just looking like a puerile punk.
 
Last edited:
I think this thread blew up faster than any PFT thread in the history of FlightInfo.

Guys frickin' relax before someone has a stroke.
 
DC4boy said:
Yeah Rat him out.. Thats good.


Now I'm not exactly old school, and am probably in the age group with the majority of you (26) or older, but when I started flying my instructor told me about reg's and rules etc.., but, the only one he emphasized on was not in the regs or available at the FSDO.

NEVER RAT OUT ANOTHER PILOT. PERIOD.

Immelman, that kind of talk is grounds for dismissal...


I am from the "old school" and I am not sure what to do, I doubt I would do anything unless he was seen doing it again, that is, a head on.

I know a guy that flys without a medical, plus he can't fly for sh*t and he is nuts on the ramp and my CFI budy wants to turn him in, I told him to think real hard about that one too.
 
DC4boy said:
Like said, never rat out another PILOT!

I agree somewhat. "Ratting out" is being a tattletale every time you see something remotely unsafe or against the regs. There is a BIG difference between that and taking action against a dude who's committed a HUGE SAFETY ERROR (i.e.: the guy who's driving drunk all over the road at 2am).

In this case, I wouldn't report the guy right away. I'd have a man to man talk about how his flying endangered everyone that day. If he would be a man and fess up to what he did wrong, I'd let it go. Hopefully, you've convinced him to be a better aviator on his next (and concurrent) flight/flights.

If you see him pulling sh!t like this again, though, it's time to take action.


The bottom line is this: EVERYONE (and I mean this) has been unsafe in their aviation careers a time or two in the past. That's not excusible, but it shouldn't ruin anyone's career if no one got hurt. CHRONIC disregard for regulations and the safety of your fellow man, however, NEEDS to be addressed by the authorities.

My 2 cents.
 
The_Russian said:
I think this thread blew up faster than any PFT thread in the history of FlightInfo.

Guys frickin' relax before someone has a stroke.

SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE, RUSSIAN!!! :)


Haha, I'm just kidding. You're right, this has escalated into a class A debate... oh well...
 
Go to him before you go to the authority's. That how it should be in life as well as aviation.


See and avoid, F' the radio. YOU're in control, go around, go wide, whatever. It really was not that unsafe. Least I didnt think so. Then again, I look in the pattern
 
Metro752 said:
Kinda like not ratting out the guy who pulls out of a bar at 1am in front of ya, nearly hit em, and the you're behind him for the next 60 miles, 50 of which are on an interstate and he's all over the road....................

right?



Just leave the guy alone, hopefully he won't kill someone..........someone you love........


Hey we can go a step further, and really go overboard.............how about not doing anything about stinky Jihad Joe who just wanted to learn how to take off. Just a crazy guy with a lot of money, right?


DC4boy said:
Like said, never rat out another PILOT!

To be honest, that made me laugh, :D He does have a point.
 
DC4boy said:
Go to him before you go to the authority's. That how it should be in life as well as aviation.


See and avoid, F' the radio. YOU're in control, go around, go wide, whatever. It really was not that unsafe. Least I didnt think so. Then again, I look in the pattern

The part that was unsafe, is according to Matt's description was, during the takeoff and the ag on short final, the ag may have come into 'view' after the plane taking off already rotated. The angle of attack may have been enough to block the view of the ag plane, depending on the altitude and distance. None-the-less, the departing plane had to perform an evasive manuever when it was low and slow.
 
For any doubts about my version, feel free to call the 0F8 FBO. Kream also confirmed my story, as he stated, he heard it from another person who was involved in this little situation we had.


As for reporting him? Na... not my thing. I only rant about such things. But I did post his tail number - in case anyone knows him, feel free to share the link to this thread to him.
 
Long time lurker, first time post. I have a "little" bit of experience in aviation safety and regulatory compliance. The ag pilot was unsafe and broke the regs. Anyone else in the pattern has a right to be upset. Their lives were put at risk. Even if his actions had been permitted by the regs, if a midair resulted, you can bet he would have been liable in tort. A similar incident happened a few years ago at a small uncontrolled field served by a regional with 30 pax on board (near midair collision). For those defending the ag pilot, do you still feel the same in that scenario? I hope not.

As for the radio in an ag plane, I guess Tomcat pilots are in too loud an environment, too busy, whatever, to have/use one as well. Yes, see and avoid is the rule, but radios are cheap, lives are not. What possible excuse does anyone have for not using all feasible means to maintain merely a reasonable level of safety, much less a high one?
 
Xav8tor said:
What possible excuse does anyone have for not using all feasible means to maintain merely a reasonable level of safety, much less a high one?

...is being a meathead not excuse enough :confused: ;) :D
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom