Farken Ag Pilot!

[Fury220]

Best surreptitious "look-how-cool-I-am" post this week. Next time put something in there about Mach number. It still won't have anything to do with what you're talking about, but the chicks love it.

YGBSM, YGBSM. Personally, I don't give a flip what you think about me as an aviator, but my post had EVERYTHING to do with DC4boy's statement about how "time is of the essence" for an ag pilot. Apparently, we need to give way in ANY situation to an ag driver on final, so my sarcastic post was trying to point out how ridiculous a statement like that can be.

Excuse me for stipulating the consequences of opposite-direction traffic on my nose while I'm rotating.


"look-how-cool-I-am"??? No one looks cool on a message board, bubba. Give it a rest, YGBSM. We're just arguing over a point.

 

[Ollie]

Its not the lack of proceedure, or situational awareness, or anything else. Time is of the essence when flying ag. Nobody gets paid when the gates closed.

Time is also of the essence in many other aviation ventures. That's not to say that they should also be given the freedom and right to land in the opposite direction on the same runway as another aircraft is taking off.

Simple professional common curtesey, to give way, let him do his thing. Then resume your routine.

You're right, the pilot of the aircraft on takeoff roll should have shown "simple professional common courtesy" by aborting his takeoff roll or executing whatever other emergency procedures upon seeing the ag plane blazing down final on a collision course. Makes perfect sense...

It seems like several people on here are failing to understand the point of the original post. This guy witnessed something that was terribly unsafe, that's it. Hope some of you don't hurt yourselves falling off your high horses someday...

 

[Wang Chung]

First off, let me say that I've done my share of NORDO flying at uncontrolled fields. I love it, and the head is on a swivel because it MUST be. I've also been in the pattern with ag planes who do some non-standard stuff...to a point, that's cool and it's no big deal.

BUT the "He's gotta make a living so he can do whatever the hell he want so" argument is a joke. If that was valid, it would be OK for a bizjet to land opposite to get the late boss to the meeting on time to close a million-dollar deal. It would be OK for freight guys to do the same, cuz on-time is paramount to keep the contract. It would be OK for the RJ or 1900 guys to do the same in order to make their schedules so that their airline can survive in the industry. Give that a rest.

And I also find this alarming:

Do me a favor, though. Don't make any radio traffic calls on my behalf.

I respect avbug's experience, but YGBSM!!! do you really think that it's prudent for a guy to keep his mouth shut when he sees a NORDO plane doing nonstandard moves around an airport when there are other planes in the pattern!? ABSURD! How would you feel if a loved one flying a 172 was killed in a mid-air with an ag plane, and you found out that there were 4 other people in the pattern who all saw the ag bird but were afraid to say anything because some ag guy on an internet message board said they should just shut up?

I've made "courtesy calls" before while in the pattern with other planes when I see a NORDO bird doing his thing - something like "be advised, looks like there's a yellow Cub turning tight left base-to-final" or whatever. No, radios can't spot traffic, and it's not a big deal to go NORDO. But those who ARE using radios can use them to tell others about what's going on in order to increase safety. You'll never spot 100% of the traffic 100% of the time, obviously.

 

[Fury220]

BUT the "He's gotta make a living so he can do whatever the hell he want so" argument is a joke. If that was valid, it would be OK for a bizjet to land opposite to get the late boss to the meeting on time to close a million-dollar deal. It would be OK for freight guys to do the same, cuz on-time is paramount to keep the contract. It would be OK for the RJ or 1900 guys to do the same in order to make their schedules so that their airline can survive in the industry. Give that a rest.

This is basically why we have the FAA...last time I checked. Good post.

 

[DC4boy]

You all maybe right, however, getting on this board and bitching about another aviator is exactly whats wrong with aviation today.


Furry, that was a good one. FAA, hah......

 

[Fury220]

You all maybe right, however, getting on this board and bitching about another aviator is exactly whats wrong with aviation today.


Furry, that was a good one. FAA, hah......

...that's with one R, spank ya very much

haha


True, we tend to bitch a lot about each other, but I don't see a huge problem with it. It's certainly not the biggest problem in aviation, although it's there.

I enjoy knowing that there are dudes out there that are learning from what's said here (myself included), so I'll keep it up. In good taste, of course!

 

[250 KIAS]

The fargen AG pilot was clearly in violation of 91.247:

§ 91.247 Playing Chicken.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft for the purpose of playing chicken unless both parties are equipped with a TCAS Monkey.

(b) Any aircraft engaged in playing chicken must -

(1) Call out the prospective opponent by rocking the wings while on final approach while the prospective opponent is on final approach to the opposing runway

(2) Observe the prospective opponent rock their wings.

(i) If the above is not observed, the game should be terminated and another opponent should be selected.

(c) In case of a tie game, the estates of both parties must notify the NTSB within 10 days.

 

[Snakum]

The TCAS monkey made a mess of the seats of my airplane and humped a passenger's leg

Just be thankful you didn't get stuck with a poo-flinger or a chronic masturbator. TCAS monkeys are awful handy, especially with crazy-assed Ag pilots and single-pilot, owner-flown King Airs and CJs running around all over the place like they own the sky er sump'n. But you get one of them poo-fling'n, dolphin-floggin TCAS monkeys and you got bigger problems than inconsiderate pilots, bro.

Be careful out there!

Minh

 

[jbDC9]

Just be thankful you didn't get stuck with a poo-flinger or a chronic masturbator. TCAS monkeys are awful handy, especially with crazy-assed Ag pilots and single-pilot, owner-flown King Airs and CJs running around all over the place like they own the sky er sump'n. But you get one of them poo-fling'n, dolphin-floggin TCAS monkeys and you got bigger problems than inconsiderate pilots, bro.

Dude, where do you come up with this stuff??? Too freakin' funny.

Now I'm having a flashback to the South Park episode where Cartman had a Hooked on Phonics Monkey... I think he was a dolphin flogger, and he killed Kenny. Bad, bad Hooked on Phonics Monkey.

 

[wingnutt]

the range of excuses given for this are astounding...

• he has a right to as per some reg, regardless of safety.
• it was ok in the essence of saving "time"?
• he was helping farmers feed america
• everyone needs to "yield to the working man"
• students shouldnt be where ag planes are
• he was tired and covered in roundup

...yall ever thought about getting into law, or maybe even politics???

Not exactly. I'm one of them. Several othes who posted here are, also, meathead. You haven't a clue what you're saying.

and several others have posted in opposition, so what? i guess count me in as one of the meatheads...

 

[wingnutt]

You all maybe right, however, getting on this board and bitching about another aviator is exactly whats wrong with aviation today.

lol...good one, welcome to flightinfo.com

 

[Ollie]

and several others have posted in opposition, so what? i guess count me in as one of the meatheads...

But you're covered in roundup, so it's okay!

 

[Immelman]

Get his N# and call the FSDO. That is what I would do. Seriously.

Nordo I can understand... flying low and turning tight I can understand, and respect, for an Ag guy, he may not have seen you as well when you say he cut you off.. all of that I'd play devil's advocate on.

Where this guy screwed the pooch is in his opposite direction landing, when there was absolutely no excuse for failing to see and avoid conflicting traffic in the pattern. Nail his a$$.

 

[PCL_128]

avbug, I normally have the utmost respect for guys like you that have been in this business for decades. You however, are the exception. Your decades of experience has taught you nothing but how to be an arrogant jerk. "Meatheads?" I think not. There's no way to justify what this guy did. Even if you can dig up some obscure regulation to make it legal, that doesn't make it safe. Safety is what matters, not legality. Get off your high horse and use some common sense.

 

[Metro752]

Should've sicked the trunk monkey on him...

http://www.trunkmonkey.com/content/view/29/51/

I love the trunk monkey!

 

[DC4boy]

Yeah Rat him out.. Thats good.


Now I'm not exactly old school, and am probably in the age group with the majority of you (26) or older, but when I started flying my instructor told me about reg's and rules etc.., but, the only one he emphasized on was not in the regs or available at the FSDO.

NEVER RAT OUT ANOTHER PILOT. PERIOD.

Immelman, that kind of talk is grounds for dismissal...

 

[Metro752]

Yeah Rat him out.. Thats good.


Now I'm not exactly old school, and am probably in the age group with the majority of you (26) or older, but when I started flying my instructor told me about reg's and rules etc.., but, the only one he emphasized on was not in the regs or available at the FSDO.

NEVER RAT OUT ANOTHER PILOT. PERIOD.

Immelman, that kind of talk is grounds for dismissal...

Kinda like not ratting out the guy who pulls out of a bar at 1am in front of ya, nearly hit em, and the you're behind him for the next 60 miles, 50 of which are on an interstate and he's all over the road....................

right?



Just leave the guy alone, hopefully he won't kill someone..........someone you love........


Hey we can go a step further, and really go overboard.............how about not doing anything about stinky Jihad Joe who just wanted to learn how to take off. Just a crazy guy with a lot of money, right?

 

[DC4boy]

Like said, never rat out another PILOT!

 

[A Squared]

Without delving into the issue of whether returning to load is a dispensing or nondispensing activity, it should be pointed out that 137.29 is not carte blanche to deviate from any and all of the provisions of Part 91. It is authorization to "................ deviate from the provisions of part 91 of this chapter without a certificate of waiver, as authorized in this subpart...." In other words, Part 137 cites specific regulations which 137 operators are authorized to deviate from and describes the requirements for those deviations. The authorized deviations from traffic patterns are in 137.45 which reads in part:


"..............At an airport without a functioning control tower, the pilot in command may deviate from the traffic pattern if --
(d) The aircraft at all times remains clear of, and gives way to, aircraft conforming to the traffic pattern for the airport.

All we have is Matt's description of the event. If we reject the rationale that Matt *must* be wrong, because he has only 250 hours, and the ag pilot *must* be in the right, becuase he is an ag pilot, (and I would hope that all would see the idiocy of this reasoning, although several posts seem to be based exclusively on this mindset and little else) we pretty much are left with his version of what happened. None of us were there, so we have no basis for discounting his description. In that case, it seems pretty clear that the ag pilot was not complying with his obligations under 137.45.

According to the only information we have, the ag pilot did *not* remain clear and give way to aircraft conforming the the traffic pattern.

Unless someone has actual knowledge (as opposed to groundless speculation) of the event which shows matt's version to be in error, we are left with the inescapable conclusion that the ag pilot was in the wrong here.

As for the radio issue, the idea that somhow an ag pilot is physically incapable of using a radio is nothing short of laughable. I have to think really hard to recall when I've had to remove my hand from a stick or yoke to make a radio transmission. A yoke or stick mounted transmit button is a very simple, common thing. Yes I have flown a few planes which didn't have one, and I was required to use a handheld mike. It was possible, I don't have 3 hands. Would it be a good thing to do while on a swath? obviously not. Is it a physical impossibility (or even slightly difficult) while approaching an airport to land. Just as obviously, No. It is well within the capabilities of anyone who poseses a third class medical to remove your hand from the throttle, pick up the microphone, and use it. The thottle will not suddenly go to idle. The airplane will not suddenly stop flying and plummet from the sky.

The idea that a radio *shouldn't* be used merely because it isn't required is equally fallacious. Yes I know about NORDO aircraft, I've flown them myself. I expect them at uncontrolled airports. I look for them, as I look for any traffic.

The reality though is that the human eye is not 100% effective at detecting other airplanes, no matter how skillfully and dilligently it is used. Couple that with the fact that most of airspace surrounding an airplane is not physically viewable from the cockpit, and you are left with the reality that no matter how well you scan for traffic, it is not humanly possible to detect all collision hazards.

Yes, communicating without looking is poor practice.

I would agree that looking without communicating would be better.

It should be obvious that looking *and* communicating is better than either of the previous two scenarios.

Personally, I don't like radios, I think they're a pain, always have. But I would have to question the thought process of somone who would conciously chose to place themselves in the "looking but not commuicating" category when the means were at hand to easily be in the preferable "looking *and* communicating" category. It doens't make sense.

 

[PaulThomas]

avbug,

Recently the respect I once had for you has been going down the drain, and you've just hit rock bottom. Usually you're the first one to advocate safety, what happened to this here?

What the AG pilot did, even if legal was not safe. Radio are not necessary, but they sure help. As much as I look arround for traffic, I still miss a lot (eyes can only see so far and can only scan one part of the sky at the time). When I hear someone on the radio, most of the time there are so far away that it would be imposible to see them, but I can already alter my flying to accomodate them when they'll be close by. As much as you want to appear as the "malboro man" (free as a bird, cool as ...), you just looking like a puerile punk.