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Farken Ag Pilot!

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Radios dont' see traffic. You do. You should always assume that the other traffic doesn't see you, and act accordingly. Always.

What does that have to do with landing on the opposite end of the runway?

Did the ag pilot spot the traffic in the pattern? If yes, did he land on the opposite end of the runway on purpose for whatever reason? If no, would the use of the radio have helped him spot 5 planes in the pattern and help him make a better choice on which runway to land?


Do you still maintain that the ag pilot did nothing wrong in the debated situation? Were the other five aircraft in the pattern at fault for following established procedures?
 
avbug said:
Does that mean you do assume traffic sees you if they're talking, or that they are even looking at the right target?

Radios dont' see traffic. You do. You should always assume that the other traffic doesn't see you, and act accordingly. Always.

Perhaps I should re-write verbatim what I already wrote. I don't know how to put it any more clearly:

"I'm getting paid to NOT assume potentially-lethal things".

So, I answered your question before you asked it. Assuming another aicraft sees me just because they're talking and/or say they do would fall squarely into the category "potentially-lethal". Assuming I see everyone just because I see (or think I see) the ones talking falls in there too. Radios enhance safety when used properly as an aid to help people see some of the potential threats...that's indisputable....but nowhere did I imply radio usage assures seeing them all, let alone replaces see-and-avoid responsiblities.

The example in question really has less to do with radios than it has to do with arriving at a busy, uncontrolled field. In the thousand times I've done it whether in non-radio aircraft myself or in jets with all the fancy doodads mixing it up with slower traffic, the whole point is to not create a conflict. I believe all the pertinent regs and AIM were developed with this in mind. Landing the opposite direction of another aircraft already on the runway with no communication is creating a confict where there wasn't one before.

Besides, if the ag-pilot in the scenario indeed admitted he didn't know what was going on when he arrived, and didn't bother to look and find out everyone else was on a different page in order to time and adjust his non-standard arrival to avoid conflict, it sounds like he was either blind, lazy, or perhaps just a d1ck.

Do Part 137 regs give special dispensation for that too?
 
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AVBUG, give it up man.........If your mind really works the way you are trying to justify all this you should really give up flying and try something that requires less common sense !!..please, leave the flying to people that can handle thinking and talking at the same time..
 
I like talking about flying and I especially like talking about ag-aviation, but I don't like us fighting about something like this when all the facts are not known.
I think Mattpilot should call the owner of the a/c in question tomorrow and talk to them about this.
The owners of this aircraft are good people, and well know in the aviation industry.
I'm sure Mattpilot has done a search to find the owner. Now search for R????flying service and contact them. I'm sure Paul will give you the closure you seek.
 
Avbug,

I see you as a very respected poster/pilot on this board. However, you really don't have a leg to stand on here. Your defense of Ag pilots is honorable, and it should be, but your anger seems to be blurring your vision of the situation. CatYaaak is in the right here. I read the same regs he quotes, and I can see that the regs are not provisional for Ag pilots vs. GA pilots. No one has more right than the other, and both must obey the rules and AIM guidelines.
 
Has it ever dawned on any of you rocket scientist that this pilot in question just plain and simply screwed up?
Is there any of you here ever done anything stupid or am I the only one?
It seams that this is all about hanging crop dusters as a group. If so I take great offence to this. Ag-aviation holds some of the best pilots in the business and I personally think most pilots envy the skill they exhibit.
 
RightPedal said:
I think Mattpilot should call the owner of the a/c in question tomorrow and talk to them about this.
The owners of this aircraft are good people, and well know in the aviation industry.
I'm sure Mattpilot has done a search to find the owner. Now search for R????flying service and contact them. I'm sure Paul will give you the closure you seek.

I seek no closure. I also have no desire to give someone a hard time with their boss (hey, as far as i know it was a one time occurence). All i did was rant about this incident, as admitted in the original post. Anger did play a role, obviously. This thread more or less serves as a reminder that there are dangerous situations out there, and everyone should be as careful as possible. I sure learned something from that incident. Perhaps others have too, or at least have been made aware that there are non standard operations going on - legal or otherwise. I didn't intend for this thread to get out of hand as it has. However, some of the responces defending the ag pilot & telling me that I and the fellow pilots in the pattern were at fault do bother me.

As for contacting said owner ... thats okay. If you know the owner, feel free to send him a link to this thread, if you think that would help anything.
 
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There must be more important things to argue about than this.

We all have different ideas on what segment of aviation is the best, however we all must abide by the same regulations and some of us screw up ocassionally.

As to Ag flying, well for me it was the best job I ever had all things considered, but like all pilots I just was not satisfied and kept looking for something better....and still looking. :D

Your newest professionalism cop......;)
 
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I wrote a short story about crop dusting back in the fifties and sixties, anyone want me to link it here?


Just for something to read?
 
mattpilot said:
I seek no closure. I also have no desire to give someone a hard time with their boss (hey, as far as i know it was a one time occurence). All i did was rant about this incident, as admitted in the original post. Anger did play a role, obviously. This thread more or less serves as a reminder that there are dangerous situations out there, and everyone should be as careful as possible. I sure learned something from that incident. Perhaps others have too, or at least have been made aware that there are non standard operations going on - legal or otherwise. I didn't intend for this thread to get out of hand as it has. However, some of the responces defending the ag pilot & telling me that I and the fellow pilots in the pattern were at fault do bother me.

As for contacting said owner ... thats okay. If you know the owner, feel free to send him a link to this thread, if you think that would help anything.

You handled that very well....Thank you:D
 
The story needs to be in two parts for this forum, so here is part one.

----------------------------------------------------

The Tobacco Fields - By Chuck Ellsworth

For generations the farmers of southern Ontario have planted cared for harvested and cured tobacco in a small area on the northern shores of lake Erie. Our part in this very lucrative cash crop was aerial application of fertilizers and pesticides better known as crop dusting.

At the end of the twentieth century this form of farming is slowly dying due to the ever-increasing movement of the anti-smoking segment of society. Although few would argue the health risks of smoking it is interesting that our government actively supports both sides of this social problem. Several times in the past ten or so years I have rented a car and driven back to the tobacco farming area of Southern Ontario, where over forty years ago I was part of that unique group of pilots who earned their living flying the crop dusting planes.

The narrow old highways are still there, but like the tobacco farms they are slowly fading into history as newer and more modern freeways are built. The easiest way of finding tobacco country is to drive highway 3, during the nineteen forties and early fifties this winding narrow road was the main route from Windsor through the heart of tobacco country and on to the Niagara district. Soon after leaving the modern multi lane 401 to highway 3 you will begin to realize that although it was only a short drive you have drifted back a long way in time. Driving through the small villages and towns very little has changed and life seems to be as it was in the boom days of tobacco farming, when transients came from all over the continent for the harvest. They came by the hundreds to towns like Aylmer, Tillsonberg, Deli and Simcoe, these towns that were synonymous with tobacco have changed so little it is like going back in time.

Several of the airfields we flew our Cubs, Super Cubs and Stearmans out of in the fifties and early sixties are still there. Just outside of Simcoe highway 3 runs right past the airport and even before turning into the driveway to the field I can see that after all these years nothing seems to have changed. I could be in a time warp and can imagine a Stearman or Cub landing and one of my old flying friends getting out of his airplane after another morning killing tobacco horn worms, and saying come on Chuck lets walk down to the restaurant and have breakfast. The tobacco hornworm was a perennial pest and our most important and profitable source of income. Most of my old companion's names have faded from memory as the years have passed and we went our different ways but some of them are easy to recall.

Like Lorne Beacroft a really great cropduster and Stearman pilot. Lorne and I shared many exciting adventures in our airplanes working together from the row crop farms in Southern Ontario to conifer release spraying all over Northern Ontario for the big pulp and paper companies. Little did we know then that many years later I would pick up a newspaper thousands of miles away and read about Lorne being Canadas first successful heart transplant. I wonder where he is today and what he is doing?

There are others, Tom Martindale whom I talked to just last year after over forty years, now retired having flown a long career with Trans Canada Airlines, now named Air Canada. Then there was Howard Zimmerman who went on to run his own helicopter company and still in the aerial applicating business last I heard of him. And who could forget Bud Boughner another character that just disappeared probably still out there somewhere flying for someone.

I have been back to St. Thomas, another tobacco farming town on highway 3 twice in the last several years to pick up airplanes to move for people in my ferry business. The airport has changed very little over the years. The hanger where I first learned to fly cropdusters is still there with the same smell of chemicals that no Ag. Pilot can ever forget. It is now the home of Hicks and Lawrence who were in the business in the fifties and still at it, only the airplanes have changed.

My first flying job started in that hangar, right from a brand new commercial license to the greatest flying job that any pilot could ever want. There were twenty-three of us who started the crop dusting course early that spring, in the end only three were hired and I was fortunate to have been one of them.

With the grand total of 252 hours in my log book I started my training with an old duster pilot named George Walker. Right from the start he let me know that I was either going to fly this **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed thing right on its limits and be absolutely perfect in flying crop spraying patterns or the training wouldn't last long. It was fantastic not only to learn how to really fly unusual attitudes but do it right at ground level.
 
Part Two

------------------------------------

To become a good crop duster pilot required that you accurately fly the airplane to evenly apply the chemicals over the field being treated. We really had to be careful with our flying when applying fertilizers in early spring as any error was there for all to see as the crop started growing. This was achieved by starting on one side of the field maintaining a constant height, airspeed and track over the crop. Just prior to reaching the end of your run full power was applied, and at the last moment the spray booms were shut off and at the same time a forty-five degree climb was initiated. As soon as you were clear of obstructions a turn right or left was made using forty five to sixty degrees of bank. After approximately three seconds a very quick turn in the opposite direction was entered until a complete one hundred and eighty degree change of direction had been completed. If done properly you were now lined up exactly forty-five feet right or left of the track you had just flown down the field.

From that point a forty-five degree dive was entered and with the use of power recovery to level flight was made at the exact height above the crop and the exact airspeed required for the next run down the field in the opposite direction to your last pass. Speed was maintained from that point by reducing power.

To finish the course and be one of the three finally hired was really hard to believe. To be paid to do this was beyond belief. When the season began we were each assigned an airplane, a crash helmet, a tent and sleeping bag and sent off to set up what was to be our summer home on some farmers field. Mine was near Langdon just a few miles from lake Erie.

Last year I tried without success to find the field where my Cub and I spent a lot of that first summer. Time and change linked with my memory of its location being from flying into it rather than driving to it worked against me and I was unable to find it. Remembering it however is easy, how could one forget crawling out of my tent just before sunrise to mix the chemicals? Then pump it into the spray tank and hand start the cub. Then to be in the air just as it was getting light enough to see safely and get in as many acres as possible before the wind came up and shut down our flying until evening. Then with luck the wind would go down enough to allow us to resume work before darkness would shut us down for the day. The company had a very good method for assuring we would spray the correct field.

Each new job was given to us by the salesman who after selling the farmer drew a map for the pilots with the location of the farm and each building and its color plus all the different crops were written on the map drawn to scale. As well as the buildings all trees, fences and power lines were drawn to scale. It was very easy for us to find and positively identify our field to be sprayed and I can not remember us making any errors in that regard.

Sadly there were to many flying errors made and during the first three years that I crop-dusted eight pilots died in this very demanding type of flying in our area. Most of the accidents were due to stalling in turns or hitting power lines, fences or trees.

One new pilot who had only been with us for two weeks died while doing a low level stall turn and spinning in, he was just to low to recover from the loss of control. He had been on his way back from a spraying mission when he decided to put on an airshow at the farm of his girlfriend of the moment. This particular accident was to be the last for a long time as those of us who were flying for the different companies in that area had by that time figured out what the limits were that we could not go beyond.

Even though there were a lot of accidents in the early years they at least gave the industry the motivation to keep improving on flying safety, which made a great difference in the frequency of pilot error accidents. Agricultural flying has improved in other areas as well especially in the use of toxic chemicals.

In 1961 Rachel Carson wrote a book called "The silent spring. " This book was the beginning of public awareness to the danger of the wide area spraying of chemicals especially the use of D.D.T. to control Mosquitoes and black flies.

For years all over the world we had been using this chemical not really aware that it had a very long-term residual life. When Rachels book pointed out that D.D.T. had began to build up in the food chain in nature, she also showed that as a result many of the birds and other species were in danger of being wiped out due to D.D.T. Her book became a best seller and we in the aerial application business were worried that it would drastically affect our business, and it did.

The government agency in Ontario that regulated pesticides and their use called a series of meetings with the industry. From these meetings new laws were passed requiring us to attend Guelph agricultural college and receive a diploma in toxicology and entomology. I attended these classes and in the spring of 1962 passed the exams and received Pest Control License Class 3 - Aerial Applicator.

My license number was 001. Now if nothing else I can say that I may not have been the best but I was the first. Without doubt the knowledge and understanding of the relationship of these chemicals to the environment more than made up for all the work that went into getting the license. From that point on the industry went to great length to find and use chemicals less toxic to our animal life and also to humans.

It would be easy to just keep right on writing about aerial application and all the exciting and sometimes boring experiences we had, however I will sum it all up with the observation that crop dusting was not only my first flying job it was without doubt the best. I flew seven seasons' crop dusting and I often think of someday giving it another go, at least for a short time.




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Wow, haven't checked in for a few days and look what I missed. From what I can tell the Ag pilot in question simply made a mistake. Or maybe the original poster just over reacted. No reason for some folks to make uneducated blanket statements about the safety of ag operations in general. There is also no reason for some others to defend the actions of this pilot just because he is one of "us". Many times somes of us get crossed up with other pilots because of a lack of understanding of what we are doing. Often times it is safe to cut under the patter and in front of airplanes on final because we know that there will be no conflict. The problem comes when other pilots don't understand what is going on. I have always thought that a radio is a good investment when flying around other traffic and have used one for the last few years. My policy always is that I will fly a standard pattern unless I can establish communication with those in the pattern and everyone knows what I am up to. Not suprising anyone with something nonstandard is the best way to get along. And yes, we are capable of talking on the radio while flying. I could talk on the phone and the comm radio while working a field. If everything is wired up to switches on the stick, it is no problem at all. Most Ag pilots are very safe pilots who are just trying to get a job done.
 

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