Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Farken Ag Pilot!

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Do you still maintain that the ag pilot did nothing wrong in the debated situation? Were the other five aircraft in the pattern at fault for following established procedures?

No, but again, those are words you and other make-believe artists here put in my mouth.

I said that not enough information is available, that of all the posters here, only one was there (you), and that one poster is inexperienced and low time, and hardly the yardstick by which to measure the matter.

Further, I never stated that the ag pilot did nothing wrong. I never stated that ag pilot did right...I stuck to the fact that an ag operator engaged in his business has the authority of regulation, per an act of congress, to operate outside Part 91...something that hasn't apparently sunk in.

Too many folks here seem to think that a radio solves everything. Now you'll notice that I never advocated going without a radio, or failing to make radio calls. In addition to ag work, I do other work, including donning my monkey suit shirt, tie, epaulets, and playing nice in the national airspace system as a regular pilot. One of those guys that's "above" guys like me...as one arrogant poster put it (or words to that effect). However...radios don't see traffic, and those that believe one who fails to use a radio is dangerous merely show their inexperience.

One may have twenty years in a Part 121 airline but moving to a different type of operation puts that person squarely in the student pilot seat. For those who have been tooling around in their Falcon 50 or B757 and think they've reached the pinnacle of knowledge, think again. If you think that one who doesn't have or use a radio is dangerous, you're only showing your own inexperience and foolishness. You're talking out of turn. If your sphere of experience were a little bigger, you'd know differently, and would realize how stupid such consel really is. Radios don't fly airplanes, pilots do.

I've met far too many stuffed shirts who really believed that the first action after donning one's mask in a cabin pressure loss situation is to set the microphone switch to mask...to establish communications. Talk. Too many who after even years of training and recurrency, forget that the first task is to fly the airplane.

Only a few days ago I watched corporate pilot after corporate pilot in citations, king airs, cheyennes, cessna 340's, conquests, and what-not, cut one another off in the pattern at an uncontrolled field. Their jabs at one another on the radio were far from professional. Their behavior was les than stellar. In an amazing turn of events, not a single ag pilot was spotted, much less responsible for the melodrama. Aircraft landing opposite directions, aircraft going around aircraft cutting one another off, aircraft calling and whining about who cut who off, who didn't call what, and aircraft broadcasting that they'd circled enough after being cut off and now they were coming in without apology.

Busy day, lots of starched stuffed shirts with their noses all awrinkle, and not a single agricultural aviator upon which to blame their troubles. Wow. Who'da thunk it?

Occasionally I get cut off by other aircraft. Shoot, while performing aerial dispensing operations, I've been cut off by private pilots and commercial pilots who thought they ought to be there, too. Two days ago I did a go-around because a corporate pilot thought he ought to use a different runway and despite my repeated radio calls giving position and progress in the standard traffic patter I was flying, he elected to utilize the opposite direction runway anyway.

Know what? I didn't write ten or fifteen pages of whining commentary opining that these folks were in the wrong, or go off on some freakish tangent about their profession, or dictate that they were beneath me. I simply went on with the day. I didn't seek them out to realign their faces. I didn't write their mothers and say bad words. I didn't even cry. I just moved on.

Seems mattpilot can't do that, nor can a dozen of others here. A few like hugh jergen can't help themselves...having nothing to contribute, they jump in to ply their usual claptrap.

When sitting on contract in the summer, I watch dozens of instructors and students and private pilots reinvent the traffic pattern every day. It's more entertainment than one could ever hope for in a theater. Often there, the only standard traffic pattern flown in a given day with an AIM-sanctioned cookie-cutter traffic pattern, and standard radio calls...is me...the only ag pilot in and out of the joint. Go figure.

Next some of you guys will suggest that skydivers carry radios...announce their altitude on the way down. How about a handheld...those factory installations are hard to do on a piggy back sport rig.

Like most of you here, I use TCAS every day...and like most of you, I know fully well that only Mode S Transponder-equipped aircraft appear on TCAS...a lot or targets are out there that don't appear. Now some of you might go so far as to suggest that an aircraft with no Mode S is a dangerous aircraft, merely because you have TCAS. But what about those other aircraft that don't have TCAS...far more aircraft are out there flying without it than have it. No, those aircraft aren't dangerous, and yes, they can be safely operated without TCAS or Mode S.

Likewise, I grew up as a kid flying tube and fabric aircraft that had no electrical system and no radio. Was that dangerous? Not hardly. As a kid, we used to fly a 200' traffic pattern, and very seldom did I ever climb above 500' AGL. Was that dangerous? No, not at all. Of it's own accord, no, it wasn't.

Pilots at uncontrolled fields often talk about the "active" runway, as if there were ever such a thing at an uncontrolled field. Pilots assume that they own a runway if they intend to land on it. Pilots feel that anyone who uses a different runway has committed a sin agains their race or their God, and merits a three hundred page thread on the subject based on their own ridiculous rantings. Like this thread.
 
AV Bug....Years ago I was at a small airport in Arkansas when an FAA inspector was citing ag pilots for careless and reckless operations for crossing active runway at the local airport without making any calls or reports and cutting off planes using that runway. It is not required to call on the radio but the inspector told me that because of the ag pilot was putting others at risk that he had to cite him for careless and reckless operations.


This is a true story... I was there
 
now avbug, that post is on a whole different plane than any of your others...admit it, you feel better now, dontcha ;)
 
avbug said:
...and like most of you, I know fully well that only Mode S Transponder-equipped aircraft appear on TCAS...
Wrong. Modes C and S will show with altitude information and can generate TAs and RAs. Transponder equipped aircraft not squawking altitude will show without altitude information and can only generate TAs.
 
Last edited:
Actually, it's consistant with what I said before. Folks were too busy trying to figure out how to tie a legal hangman's knot to finish the discussion.


AV Bug....Years ago I was at a small airport in Arkansas when an FAA inspector was citing ag pilots for careless and reckless operations for crossing active runway at the local airport without making any calls or reports and cutting off planes using that runway. It is not required to call on the radio but the inspector told me that because of the ag pilot was putting others at risk that he had to cite him for careless and reckless operations.


This is a true story... I was there

I don't doubt it's a true story. It's also true that the FAA is known for it's collective wisdom and fair play. Just ask Howard Frield, Mike Taylor, or Bob Hoover.

91.13...the single most used regulation in enforcement action. What a surprise.

Didn't wash your hands before leaving the restroom? Careless and reckless operation. Notice that almost every FAA enforcement action against pilots includes 91.13 at some point in the enforcement or appeal process? Why do you suppose that is?

It's a catch-all.

Then again, in the many days after 09/11, ag pilots all over the country were seen and reported dispensing white dust on hapless communities. Even when the aircraft were in the hangar with the prop chained or removed they were seen attacking a polite society with evil white dust.

For the most part, however, with respect to agricultural avaition, the FAA knows enough to leave well enough alone.

Wrong. Modes C and S will show with altitude information and can generate TAs and RAs. Transponder equipped aircraft not squawking altitude will show without altitude information and can only generate TAs.

Actually, no. Merely because an aircraft has a 4096 Mode C transponder, the target will not necessarily even show up on TCAS. But then that's the point. Folks also think that because they have TCAS, like a radio, they're seeing and hearing all the traffic, and that just ain't so. It's not just aircraft that aren't squawking that don't show up. I see aircraft every day, passing right in front of me, that ATC sees and that ATC is talking to and that are participating with ATC, that aren't on the fish finder.

Aircraft with active mode C may not show up on TCAS...just as aircraft with radios, talking on a different frequency or not talking, won't be heard. Neither can be relied upon as giving the full picture, but too many folks do. The single most irritating thing I hear a pilot ever say is "any inbound traffic please advise."

Just us guys with no radios, kid. Just us guys with no radios.
 
Last edited:
Bugchaser,

According to Avgod and many of your colleagues, you would need a "third hand" to use a radio. My contention is simple, if you are flying a NO RADIO equipt ag plane, then follow normal protocols. If you have a radio, then use it. What is so hard to understand about that?

Please tell me "RidetheWind". You seem to be an authority, why is it again you can't use a radio in an ag plane?

Avgod contends that radios don't "see" traffic. I guess everyone with a radio should put them up on e-bay then 'cuase they are useless huh?

Obviously people on the board aren't all "meatheads" and "brightsparks" and "foolish idiots". Nobody on this thread said that a radio "sees" traffic, it only aids in identifying a visual sooner that later.

Funny thing, before this thread, many more people "looked up" to avbug do to his experience.

I was the one, mentioned earlier in this thread, that suggested he write a book. It was only after several mis-steps and inaccurate info he was posting on another web site that I "called him out".

I did this respectfully only to get flamed as a suicidal idiot, fool, brightspark, (whatever that is) and a few other choice adjectives. He seems to dwell and thrive on ridiculing fellow pilots that he disagrees with.

He mixes sound advice with very BAD advice and will NEVER admit he is EVER wrong.

Avbug will even flame you if you compliment him, strange fellow indeed.

I feel he is combative towards others because he never met his goals early in his career and is relegated to a low paying thankless job.

I also feel he is very bitter and needs to feel empowered by his posts. That is why he lives on a computer.

Avbug, the reason you are where you are is simple,

You don't get along with people, I know of one DE that knows you well, His first name is Bob, ring a bell? This and your irrational posts is how I know, basically you're a d1ck!

In an odd way, I feel sorry for you.:(

Bottom line, the ag plane messed up, no ifs ands or buts about it. Big deal, nobody is perfect, even you Avbug.

Anybody that would defend his actions are fools as well, and that’s all I have to say about that!

Goodnight!:)
 
Hmmmm. well I guess my posting a normal story about ag flying got lost in the heat of the moment....


...oh well I tried..;)

Cat Driver
 
Cat Driver said:
Hmmmm. well I guess my posting a normal story about ag flying got lost in the heat of the moment....


...oh well I tried..;)

Cat Driver

Sorry Cat Driver, I didn't get a chance to read it yet, I will though, I promise.;)
 
I don't know any designated examiners named bob.

I was the one, mentioned earlier in this thread, that suggested he write a book. It was only after several mis-steps and inaccurate info he was posting on another web site that I "called him out".

No, not exactly, mate. You began to cry and rant after you began pissing out misinformation and stupidly bragging about doing foolish things like flying a slick 182 in ice to gain experience...your feelings got hurt, and you're still trying to find a way to take potshots back. Very badly, too, I might add.

He mixes sound advice with very BAD advice and will NEVER admit he is EVER wrong.

Which bad advice might that be, smart guy?

Avbug will even flame you if you compliment him, strange fellow indeed.

I don't tolerate patronization well. That's true. Nor do I want your love, respect, or whatever sick thing it is that compels you to speak out.

I also feel he is very bitter and needs to feel empowered by his posts. That is why he lives on a computer.

No, I live on a computer because I can't afford a house. But it's nice. Just small. Nice, with little chintz curtains and a really small lamp. Ever heard of a LAPTOP?

I feel he is combative towards others because he never met his goals early in his career and is relegated to a low paying thankless job.

Sadly, the exact opposite is true, beer buddy. I've met all my goals, far too easily. All except one...to be just like you.

According to Avgod and many of your colleagues, you would need a "third hand" to use a radio. My contention is simple, if you are flying a NO RADIO equipt ag plane, then follow normal protocols.

Lessee, those would be normal agricultural aviation protocols...something you have no experience or place to discuss...and every ag aviator who has responded to you does follow ag avaition protocols, radio or not. Avgod? really? Anything like Bruce Almighty? Just watched it from my hotel room. I wanna be like bruce. Only with a handheld radio. Then I'd be tdturbo...that unrealized goal. Yikes. Just thinking about it gives me the shivers.

Goodnight!

That's the only true, intelligent, and accurate thing you've posted to date.
 
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww COME ON. THIS thread has gotten posts on FAR citations, input from high and low timers. From non pilots through atps and beyond.

We got the point.

1. Ag Pilot May Have Been Wreckless landing in the opposite direction

2. AVIATE then COMMUNICATE

3. SEE AND AVOID

4. ONLY RAT OUT NON-PILOTS

5. AVBUG aka AVGOD (in a good way from me) and everyone else have their opinions from experience and what the "good book" says.

6. This message board, occasionall..........usually is not the site of professional "pilot speak"

7. We all care about safety

8. Calling Ag Pilots the Guys who Ride the "Little Yellow Short Plane" brings all of them out of the wood works.

9. Continueing this thread and repeating the same thing over and over is boring, but it's a free country, so go head.

10. I can't think of a 10 because I don't feel like it.
 
Sorry avbug, you got it wrong again, I fly in a 100 ft thick layer of icing at 6000 ft to get dusted with very warm air below to get first hand experience with airfoil degradation. I know exactly what my plane can and can not do because I have flown it many years, attended countless icing and weather seminars, 182 systems and procedures courses and read just about every aviation book published. I take my well-being very seriously. In fact just 6 hrs ago, my plane came out of annual, the mechanic gave me the keys and said "take it for a test flight. He had just taxied it from the run up area for the final checks.

What did I do?

I proceeded to do a thorough pre-flight, even sumping the fuel tanks and checking every rivet and screw on the plane. When I went to sump the bottom, low and behold, I see the nose gear actuator door cover plate dangling by one screw. This could have jammed the nose gear doors and caused a very messy landing. I don't trust anybody when it comes to my airplane, that's why I constantly seek out information on the internet, in course work, books and hanger talk. But I have NEVER met a bigger D1ck than you in my life.

You judged 90% of the pilots on this board by calling them "dung".

You stated emphatically that a plane without logs is a pile of useless garbage...................WRONG!

You got upset when I called you out on that one also. It is late and I need to work tomorrow. You go right ahead and stroke your ego some more, while I'm laughing with those other 90%.

Avbug, when you think Bob, think 135 and Indiana, I'm sure it will come to you.
 
Thread hijack for a TCAS lesson

Jim said:
Wrong. Modes C and S will show with altitude information and can generate TAs and RAs. Transponder equipped aircraft not squawking altitude will show without altitude information and can only generate TAs.


avbug said:
Actually, no. Merely because an aircraft has a 4096 Mode C transponder, the target will not necessarily even show up on TCAS. But then that's the point. Folks also think that because they have TCAS, like a radio, they're seeing and hearing all the traffic, and that just ain't so. It's not just aircraft that aren't squawking that don't show up. I see aircraft every day, passing right in front of me, that ATC sees and that ATC is talking to and that are participating with ATC, that aren't on the fish finder.

Aircraft with active mode C may not show up on TCAS......
TCAS came out before Mode S. Mode C is supposed to show up on TCAS. That it sometimes does not can be due to many factors: signal attenuation, block signals due to the relative placement of the antenna on each aircraft, etc.

An aircraft with TCAS I (TAs only) must have a Mode C transponder installed. It will see aircraft with a Mode A, C or S transponder and will generate TAs as neccessary.

An aircraft that has TCAS II (TAs and RAs) installed must have a Mode S transponder. It will see aircraft with a Mode A, C or S transponder and will generate TAs on these aircraft as neccessary. Additionally, it will generate RAs on aircraft with Mode C or S transponders. RAs on aircraft with Mode C are uncoordinated and the vertical escape manuever is decided independently by the the aircraft's TCAS computer. If the target aircraft is also Mode S and is TCAS II equipped, the TCASs "talk" to each other and vertical escape manuevers shown in each aircraft for RA resolution are coordinated.

Eventually, there is supposed to be TCAS III which will also require Mode S. If it ever comes about, it will expand the escape manuevers to the horizontal plane. Targets with Modes A will generate TAs while targets with Modes C and S will generate TAs and RAs. If the target is TCAS II equipped, coordinated vertical manuevers will be used for RAs. If the target is TCAS III equipped, coordinated horizontal and/or vertical mauevers will be used for RAs.

Back in 1995 I did my Master project on TCAS, conducting a joint study with the FAA.

I also currently fly an aircraft that has Mode C and TCAS I. I see non-TCAS Mode A and C aircraft daily on my TCAS screen.
 
Last edited:
Who'da thunk a simple thread that's only substance had to do with a simple complaint/observation from a training pilot, and it's still raging on 177 posts later!

I love this board!
 
Is it possible that ego's are at work somewhere in the background here?;)

Yh just gotta love aviation and all the weird things that make it so much fun to kill time here reading this stuff..:D
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom