Farken Ag Pilot!

[HangerRat]

You city boys. . .If you go back to doing your touch and goes in the middle of town. . .You want have to worry about the good 'ol boys in the country.

Use your eyes rather than your mouth.

 

[Stinkbug]

Many, many times I've elected to use a different runway than what others are using, and rightfully so. Most of the time, all the little weekend lemmings flying the "active runway" see the light and switch runways, but not always so. Do I care? No.

"See and avoid" doesn't work so well when you guys are flying a 200' pattern. If you're gonna fly that low and not talk to anyone, I don't see the intelligence or professionalism in intentionally taking the opposite runway as someone who's departing. Furthermore, don't you think it would be wise to consider the experience level of the "lemmings" you're mocking? A pattern full of soloing student pilots and 300-hour flight instructors is not the place to be doing your own thing. Regs aside, it seems to me that what you're talking about, Avbug, is at best rude and at worst unsafe.

 

[TDTURBO]

Don't patronize me. It does little to engender a good disposition on my part

Your disposition needs to be endangered not engendered, it sucks! That IS the point!

You bring a lot of knowlege and experience to the table, no doubt, just find it in yourself not to be so harsh and judgmental on people that you may disagree with, that's all.

 

[NJA Capt]

Could you please highlight the words where it says that an ag user may also deviate from rules when he is conducting any operations not involving dispensing?

Uhhh...sure. try the next sentence.

§ 137.29 General.
(c) The holder of an agricultural aircraft operator certificate may deviate from the provisions of Part 91 of this chapter without a certificate of waiver, as authorized in this subpart for dispensing operations, when conducting nondispensing aerial work operations related to ...

 

[54tw]

deleted

 

[Catbird]

Maybe you should file a complaint with the Fed's. Or better stroll on over to Mr. Duster and quote a few Reg's to him and inform him that if he does it again your going to hit him with your purse. Get a grip you little Prick, go back to your home airport and burn the tires off whatever POS your learning to fly. My hats off to the fellow, next time I hope he has a little Heptaclor saved in the barn to hose your sorry rump.

 

[soarby007]

I've never flown Ag stuff, and I hesitate to engage myself into this fray, but as I read 137.45...

(d)the aircraft at all times remains clear of and gives way to, aircraft conforming to the traffic pattern for the airport. or

in it's entirety

137.45 Nonobservance of airport traffic pattern

Notwithstanding part 91 of this chapter, the pilot in command of an aircraft may deviate from an airport traffic pattern when authorized by the control tower concerned. At an airport without a functioning control tower, the pilot in command may deviate from the traffic pattern if---
(a)Prior coordination is made with the airport management concerned;
(b)deviations are limited to the agricultural aircraft operation;
(c)Except in an emergency, landing and takeoffs are not made on ramps, taxiways, or other areas of the airport not intended for such use;and (d) The aircraft at all times remains clear of, and gives way to, aircraft conforming to the traffic pattern for the airport.

I would imagine the airport involved does not have a tower. I don't have any indication that the operation did or did not engage in agricultural aircraft operation and therefore do not know if (b) applies. It would appear that (a) and (d) would apply.

It seems to me from a basic reading of the account that the AG pilot probably should have complied with the standard traffic pattern recommended in the AIM or facility directory or as established by the airport management. Operating in a reckless manner does not require a regulation to determine if it is or not.

As for the radio, I think a lot of military guys are multi-functional and have mike buttons on the stick. I don't think operating in a traffic pattern requires an extraordinary amount of skill to include a radio in the operation, not that a radio saves you, but it is a tool that the modern age as adapted to. A lot of gliders also don't have radios for various reasons and some older aircraft also don't have radios. Most do.

I have always respected and appreciated the skills of an AG pilot, but really this seems to have been uncalled for as it was described by Mattpilot, regardless of his own problems.

 

[NJA Capt]

A pattern full of soloing student pilots and 300-hour flight instructors is not the place to be doing your own thing.

Maybe an airport with an active ag operation isn't the place to be soloing students. You can do T&Gs anywhere, but they have to operate near the fields they are spraying.

I am more scared trying to land a jet with a pattern full of "300 hr instructors." Especially the young lady who, after acknowledging our pattern (yes we flew a L traffic pattern), decided to do a sim eng out to an intersecting runway...at the same time.

Give me the ag pilots.

 

[54tw]

deleted

 

[Stinkbug]

Maybe an airport with an active ag operation isn't the place to be soloing students.

Good point.

 

[flyboy]

Having been raised in the heart of the Mississippi Delta and one of the crop duster capitals, I personally vouch for the unsafe tactics used by ag pilots. THEY ARE NOT RESPECTFUL OF NON-AG AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN THE SAME VICINITY!!!! PERIOD!! It's unbelievable that a lot of you are taking up for these guys. Evidently, you haven't had much personal experience with them.
My family owns farm land in MS and has had 3 ag planes burn it in on their property in the past 2 farming seasons. In one of the accidents, two of them mid-aired each other. I've seen these guys go under power lines endangering motorists on the highway. I was 3 cars behind a semi that locked it up and jackknifed to avoid a collision with a duster going under the lines. Don't give me any more BS about how safe they are. About how you'd rather be in the pattern with a duster than a 300 hour instructor. And certainly, don't ever, ever give me this BS about how they are "out making a living to help the American farming community." Do you know how much they make? 8 times more than any 300 hour instructor!! They are in it for the rush and the money, that's it. Don't be confused.

I lost a friend in the mid-air collision listed above. But, he'd already run out of gas on 3 occasions and had been seriously injured in another accident. He had no businesss in the aircraft. As a pilot, I would have said that he was the problem. After living around these guys my whole life, I see that the overall attitudes of those doing this job are pretty much the same. Sorry if I'm pissing on someone out there, but it's the truth.

 

[Swass]

Yeah, what Flyboy said.

 

[54tw]

deleted

 

[soarby007]

In reading the facility directory for Sand Springs, there is nothing about active ag operations there. Usually an active ag airport has something in the directory. Now maybe if you fly there for training on a regular basis you would know if there is, or should know, and if you regularly fly ag ops there you would also know there is training there and get gas somewhere else or fly a standard pattern.

If I fly into an uncontrolled field (which I do a lot), then you have to be especially alert to all of these type of operations, students, instructors or ag pilots. If you can't anticipate problems with instructors, students and ag pilots, then don't operate out of uncontolled fields.

Get it together or go to a towered airport.

 

[flyifrvfr]

I guess you missed the part of 14 CFR 137.29(c) that says,

§ 137.29 General.
(c) The holder of an agricultural aircraft operator certificate may deviate from the provisions of Part 91 of this chapter without a certificate of waiver, as authorized in this subpart for dispensing operations, when conducting nondispensing aerial work operations related to agriculture, horticulture, or forest preservation in accordance with the operating rules of this subpart.


Gotta love that radio. It probably looks for traffic better than you do.

Do me a favor, though. Don't make any radio traffic calls on my behalf.

I will admit that I don't have the FAR/AIM in front of me right now, and I don't know anything about Crop Dusting ops. But, the way I read the posters post and the quoted FAR, it seems that this provision doesn't apply because the AG plane is returning to the airport, not spraying a field. My take on the subject is that the AG pilot is exempt from altitude rules only when spraying, this rule does not give him carte blanc whenever or wherever he flies.

I do agree that AG pilots do an unsung job just as the farmer or a trucker does. But when returning to an airport to reload chemicals, the AG pilot must abide by the same regulations as you or I. This is my interpretation of the rule.

 

[flyifrvfr]

Mattpilot, I just realized that I posted the same thing you have said on page two, which means I didn't read the whole post. Based on our posts which pretty much agree that he is not spraying the airport the provision doesn't apply. The regulation that would apply has to do with careless and wrecklessness. I know that there is no " active runway " and pattern altitude is a recommendation, but that doesn't mean it is smart or safe to do as you please contrary to what everyone else is doing.

 

[jbDC9]

He has a TCAS monkey to do traffic watch for him when he's spraying, so everyone was safe, whether they knew it or not. The monkey sleeps most of the time, but when Avbug is heading for the airport, the monkey grabs the sides of the seat from behind, pulls himself forward so that his chin is actually resting on Avbug's noggin, and the little feller keeps his head on a constant 225 degree swivel. When he sees traffic he gives a little screech, which get louder and more urgent the closer the aircraft is to Avbug and his TCAS monkey. When he sees Flight Instructors giving primary dual he goes absolute ape $hit, so Avbug was, of course, in a hurry to get on the ground to shut the little bastidge up.

Holy crap, that was funny! Almost shot coffee out my nose on that one.

Seriously though; I'm not out to defend either side here, since I wasn't there to see it... but, the original poster mentioned 5 aircraft in the pattern doing touch n goes. Have you seen how big the pattern gets with 4-5 planes doing laps?? And not just laps, but 747 size laps?? I don't know how the CFIs and weekend warriors fly their patterns in Tulsa, but at Houston's Weiser and West Houston airports, the patterns stretch out just waaay too far. I dunno why the CFIs do that, just milking the Hobbs meter I think, but it drives me freakin' nuts. When I take the rental Citabria out to shoot a few landings, sometimes I'll just set up my own tight little pattern and fly inside these bozos in their Warriors or 172s. And no, sometimes I don't even make radio calls, since they'll think I'm cutting them off and we'll have a pissing match on the radio. I keep my patterns in tight so that there's never a conflict and my TCAS monkey is highly tuned... plus, the other guys are so far out they wouldn't even see me anyway. Kinda funny how I can get 2-3 landings for each 1 of theirs.

So, in conclusion.... I can see why Mr. Axis of Evil Ag Pilot might've chosen to do what he did; maybe he's just had it with a gigantic pattern full of 747 wannabes. Then again, it's just an opinion, I could be wrong...

 

[flyifrvfr]

As a CFI, the main reason I allow a student to fly a larger pattern for touch and goes is because it gives a student more time to be set up and stabilized for landing. I am talking about a student who I am teaching who has yet to solo. I teach students that a landing consists of three stages. The approach ( keep the runway in the middle of the windshield), The level off ( look at the other end to help you judge your height) and the flare ( as soon as you feel the plane sinking raise the nose to keep it from sinking) an you land.

As my students get better and better at landing, and before solo, I introduce simulated engine outs while in the pattern. The student quickly learns that a ( 747 ) large pattern means you won't make the runway in a glide. Now the student knows that in the begining, I let him fly a larger pattern to get stabilized without being in a rush. As he gets better, I rush him by asking for short approaches, engine outs, and such so he will be a better pilot. A pilot that can make a rushed short approach when ATC wants and needs it and won't disrupt future patterns at non-towered fields.

My reply was long, but it does answer the question as to why I allow a student to fly a larger pattern early on in training.

 

[Vector4fun]

I don't have a dog in this fight. I occasionally see an Ag pilot around the airports I fly to, and if I have a clue what they're about to do, I will gladly let them go ahead and do it. I'm just having a bit of fun and in no hurry at all, and whatever they do seldom takes more than 60 seconds anyway.

That said, plenty of Ag planes have radios that work, if the pilot chooses to use it. (Or if you piss the operator off enuf to take the cigar out of his mouth.)

On the other hand, as others said, following 5 others in the typical GA traffic pattern ought to be classified as a X-Country at a lot of airports....

 

[avbug]

He has a TCAS monkey to do traffic watch for him when he's spraying, so everyone was safe, whether they knew it or not. The monkey sleeps most of the time, but when Avbug is heading for the airport, the monkey grabs the sides of the seat from behind, pulls himself forward so that his chin is actually resting on Avbug's noggin, and the little feller keeps his head on a constant 225 degree swivel. When he sees traffic he gives a little screech, which get louder and more urgent the closer the aircraft is to Avbug and his TCAS monkey. When he sees Flight Instructors giving primary dual he goes absolute ape $hit, so Avbug was, of course, in a hurry to get on the ground to shut the little bastidge up.

Now that was funny. Service monkeys. They're not just for breakfast, any more.

As for those claiming that returning to land or load during ag ops isn't part of an operation...what are you thinking??

Dispensing operations include taking off, landing, taxiing, spraying, ferrying to the field, fueling, loading, ferrying back from the field, taking survey runs around the field, proficiency flights, repositioning flights to spray, etc. It's all part and parcel with running an ag operation...not just flying in close concert with the ground dispensing a chemical. It's also far more than just crop dusting...and yes, nonstandard patterns are normal, and expected.

It's unbelievable that a lot of you are taking up for these guys. Evidently, you haven't had much personal experience with them.

Not exactly. I'm one of them. Several othes who posted here are, also, meathead. You haven't a clue what you're saying.