Farken Ag Pilot!

[mattpilot]

Notice i used the singular form - i'm not talking about the entire breed

Warning: This is a rant


Today (4/14) i was flying out in the Tulsa area at around 6 pm. My instructor & I decided to head on over to 0F8 to do some landings. We approached from the west at roughly 2500ft (~1600agl) - while doing that we listened to CTAF and figured out that there were roughly 4 guys in the pattern (5 with us soon). About 3 miles out from the airport we notice a yellow plane at around 2000ft (~1100agl), approaching from our left and headed for the airport. He was no more than a mile from us. That farker cut right infront of us. According to the right-of-way rules, we had right of way, but that gung-ho beotch just cut us off.

ANyway, we kinda get behind him and follow him in to the airport. Active runway was 35 with a left pattern. We figured out where the 4 other guys in the pattern where and managed to enter nicely with good spacing. Gung-ho Ag pilot drops to a lower altitude, shoots across the runway while someone else is on short final, makes a left turn for a LEFTpattern for 17 - all very tight turns. So get this - while he is on final, someone else is in the process of taking off , immediately after rotation from runway 35, he sidesteps because this gung-ho ag pilot is on short final. Looked like he would stall out by the "evasive maneuver" he did. Anyway, in the mean time i'm already on final for 35 and the ag pilot just cruises on in like nothings going on and lands right infront of me. So i go around.

And the craziest thing was that jack-arse never even once anounced anything on the radio - i guess he didn't have one. I made the calls for him, letting everyone know where he's at. But gawd, that dude was fooken dangerous with 5 other guys in the pattern.

No wonder ag pilots don't live very long

Anyway - rant over.

 

[Kream926]

huh

i heard the same story from one of my buddies

 

[urflyingme?!]

Your not cool until you take off and see a plane on short final!

 

[YGBSM]

And the craziest thing was that jack-arse never even once anounced anything on the radio - i guess he didn't have one.

Somehow I'd guess that flying into the airspace surrounding 0F8 international airport doesn't require a radio to be installed in the aircraft.

Some of my 65+ year old ag pilot buddies will sure be surprised to hear they don't live very long. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[DC4boy]

Boy you're right! What an Idiot. This guy's out trying to earn a living, helping farmers feed America, and the whole time, he's screwing up one of your bazillion 747 T&G patterns. Oh the Humanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TOOL

 

[avbug]

I guess you missed the part of 14 CFR 137.29(c) that says,

§ 137.29 General.
(c) The holder of an agricultural aircraft operator certificate may deviate from the provisions of Part 91 of this chapter without a certificate of waiver, as authorized in this subpart for dispensing operations, when conducting nondispensing aerial work operations related to agriculture, horticulture, or forest preservation in accordance with the operating rules of this subpart.


Gotta love that radio. It probably looks for traffic better than you do.

Do me a favor, though. Don't make any radio traffic calls on my behalf.

 

[moving2vegas]

The real a$$ here is you for posting this BS. These guys work for a living (along with americas' most underappreciate worker...the farmer)so you and I have food on the table every night. An ag driver can cut me off anytime, I get paid by the minute. BTW...with 250 hrs TT, you're trying to build time (aka experience) anyway. So write off the whole situation as a learning experience and put an extra couple tenths in the book.

 

[TDTURBO]

I guess you missed the part of 14 CFR 137.29(c) that says,

§ 137.29 General.
(c) The holder of an agricultural aircraft operator certificate may deviate from the provisions of Part 91 of this chapter without a certificate of waiver, as authorized in this subpart for dispensing operations, when conducting nondispensing aerial work operations related to agriculture, horticulture, or forest preservation in accordance with the operating rules of this subpart.


Gotta love that radio. It probably looks for traffic better than you do.

Do me a favor, though. Don't make any radio traffic calls on my behalf.

So bottom line here is avbug is that since the FAR's say it's o.k. it's smart and safe.? Just because he is a crop duster doesn't defy the laws of de-excelleration poisoning at 500 agl. I think what he did was inexcusable regardless of any FAR stating otherwise. If I guy did that to me I would confront him why it was necessary to cut off and ignore standard proceedure and get his side of the story. Let's all work together and put egos aside!


Why can't a crop duster use a handheld? Is their some law against it? I realize it is not required but is it smart!


One more thing, I see the reference you make above that states nothing about deviating from recommended traffic protocols at an un-controlled field. So try and find another one that has something to do with the issue being dicussed please. I think the above reference is for flying below minimum altitudes over rural areas and doesn't give cart blaunch(sp)? to deviate from standard high density traffic area proceedures.

I know it's legal but so what, what's a handheld cost compared to a mid-air and possibly several lives?

I also realize that it states he may deviate from any part 91 rules, what does that exacly mean? Reckless flying is O.K.? He can ignore all part 91? Please enlighten us so we can stay well clear of these operations, if this is the case, they should be NOTAM'ed at the very least.

Don't get me wrong, I think they do an invaluble service and the work is dangerous and under paid, but everything can be improved, so I feel it should be passed along to your fellow crop dusters at the very least.


Flame suit now on with full Kevlar composite aluminum alloy compound.

 

[RideTheWind]

That's pretty farken funny, a handheld in a cropduster, have ta be a farken ANR hanheld.

 

[TDTURBO]

That's pretty farken funny, a handheld in a cropduster, have ta be a farken ANR hanheld.

So?
A lot less funny when it's you in the pattern in a head on isn't it. Maybe equip them with a used KX155 for under a thousand. There is always a way to improve safety, and don't tell me that you should be looking ouside to ensure traffic separation as a 100% gaurentee of traffic avoidance, we all know that doesn't always work, especially when high and low wings mix it up without radios.

 

[RideTheWind]

The KX155 is even funnier, say again, speak up, can't hear ya.

 

[TDTURBO]

The KX155 is even funnier, say again, speak up, can't hear ya.

Get a handheld with ANR's then, what's your problem with that? If Ultra lights use them, why can't crop dusters, please tells me, I am always up for learning as long as it's not condecending.

Simply put, what am I missing?

I am not trying to be confrontational here, I just want to know without any disrespect.

 

[avbug]

TD,

You're going to lecture us on safety...the guy who bragged about seeking ice in his slick and clean Cessna 182? Come, now.

The original poster, an inexperienced low-time pilot, writes a tail about an ag pilot who weaves in and out of traffic, cutting off every aircraft in the pattern, and posing more danger to the flying public than a disgruntled cameljockey with a dirty bomb. The inexperienced low-time pilot helped save the day by making radio calls on behalf of the ag pilot, and seems to think that radios look for traffic.

Seems to be that the entire episode might be a bit suspect, or at least the perspective provided by the inexperienced low time pilot. Then again, your assertion that one should carry a handheld radio suggests that flying without a radio is dangerous...which only belies your own inexperience and ignorance regarding the matter.

Eyeballs find traffic, not radios.

Why can't a crop duster use a handheld? Is their some law against it? I realize it is not required but is it smart!

Clearly you've never flown an ag airplane, or performed that type of work, or you wouldn't ask such a ridiculous, stupid question...and no, it's not "smart."

One more thing, I see the reference you make above that states nothing about deviating from recommended traffic protocols at an un-controlled field. So try and find another one that has something to do with the issue being dicussed please. I think the above reference is for flying below minimum altitudes over rural areas and doesn't give cart blaunch(sp)? to deviate from standard high density traffic area proceedures.

Lessee...you must be making reference to 91.127(b), which reads:

§ 91.127 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace.
(b) Departures. Each pilot of an aircraft must comply with any traffic patterns established for that airport in part 93 of this chapter.

You assert that the regulation quoted in 137.29(c) has no relevance to the discussion. Perhaps you're the only one dense enough to not understand the regulation, or note that it excuses the aerial agricultural operator from the requirements of Part 91 while engaging in aerial application. No, it's not just about flying over houses while enroute to the field. It's about the whole kit and caboodle. You're probably not aware that most ag aircraft are maintained and operated under CAM 8, either, that takes most maintenance and maintenance performance regulations right out of the picture.

Ag operations, while conducted responsibly and professionally as always, are exempt from most regulations as you think you know them (but clearly do not)...perhaps the last vestage of the ancient barnstorming days, and some of the last free flying to be had.

The description that mattpilot gave indicated no illegal action. In fact, from his description, the ag pilot had the right of way. Not that he needed it.

You're really not the one to talk about what is safe and what is not, with the ridiculous statements you've made here publically. Not that you'd understand or know what constitutes safe operation.

Many, many times I've elected to use a different runway than what others are using, and rightfully so. Most of the time, all the little weekend lemmings flying the "active runway" see the light and switch runways, but not always so. Do I care? No.

Neither should you. Perhaps you should stick to experiencing icing in your 182 while the ice season still has any oomph. Do you think?

That was a rhetorical question.

Mattpilot made the following statement, and ended it with a smiley face:

No wonder ag pilots don't live very long

Perhaps mattpilot, you think that's funny. But before you put cute little smileyfaces at the end of such asinine, ignorant, stupid-assed pinheaded comments, you ought to find out just what the hell you're talking about. Do you think?

That wasn't a rhetorical question.

Incidentally, brightspark...how do you get an "active runway" without a control tower? Your'e the intelligent one, far smarter than any "gung ho" ag aviator, and probably understand the business a lot more...so answer that one. Can you have an "active runway" at an uncontrolled field? (just say no)

Incidentally, my first boss in ag aviation had been doing it fifty years when he died. In his sleep.

You sound like one of those guys that reports a near mid-air if you see another aircaft within the same county...and go-around if you see opposing traffic. Sounds to me like that "gung-ho" ag pilot probably figured rightly that he had plenty of time to get down, and didn't want to be bothered with four or five weekend warriors who felt they knew more than everybody else, flew space shuttle patterns, and had all the time in the world.

Some of us actually work for a living, you know.

I used to spray just outside Tulsa. In fact, I recall one busy little gravel strip where we were flying...a female flight instructor made seen attempts to land there one day. Every time she tried to land, someone was either landing the opposite direction or taking off the opposite direction. She finally ran out of fuel and landed anyway. She was frothing at the mouth and fuming and wanted to have a piece of every one of us. She was probably more upset because we were laughing at her. And she deserved it.

Perhaps a handheld radio might have saved her day.

 

[TDTURBO]

TD,

You're going to lecture us on safety...the guy who bragged about seeking ice in his slick and clean Cessna 182? Come, now.

The original poster, an inexperienced low-time pilot, writes a tail about an ag pilot who weaves in and out of traffic, cutting off every aircraft in the pattern, and posing more danger to the flying public than a disgruntled cameljockey with a dirty bomb. The inexperienced low-time pilot helped save the day by making radio calls on behalf of the ag pilot, and seems to think that radios look for traffic.

Seems to be that the entire episode might be a bit suspect, or at least the perspective provided by the inexperienced low time pilot. Then again, your assertion that one should carry a handheld radio suggests that flying without a radio is dangerous...which only belies your own inexperience and ignorance regarding the matter.

Eyeballs find traffic, not radios.



Clearly you've never flown an ag airplane, or performed that type of work, or you wouldn't ask such a ridiculous, stupid question...and no, it's not "smart."



Lessee...you must be making reference to 91.127(b), which reads:

§ 91.127 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace.
(b) Departures. Each pilot of an aircraft must comply with any traffic patterns established for that airport in part 93 of this chapter.

You assert that the regulation quoted in 137.29(c) has no relevance to the discussion. Perhaps you're the only one dense enough to not understand the regulation, or note that it excuses the aerial agricultural operator from the requirements of Part 91 while engaging in aerial application. No, it's not just about flying over houses while enroute to the field. It's about the whole kit and caboodle. You're probably not aware that most ag aircraft are maintained and operated under CAM 8, either, that takes most maintenance and maintenance performance regulations right out of the picture.

Ag operations, while conducted responsibly and professionally as always, are exempt from most regulations as you think you know them (but clearly do not)...perhaps the last vestage of the ancient barnstorming days, and some of the last free flying to be had.

The description that mattpilot gave indicated no illegal action. In fact, from his description, the ag pilot had the right of way. Not that he needed it.

You're really not the one to talk about what is safe and what is not, with the ridiculous statements you've made here publically. Not that you'd understand or know what constitutes safe operation.

Many, many times I've elected to use a different runway than what others are using, and rightfully so. Most of the time, all the little weekend lemmings flying the "active runway" see the light and switch runways, but not always so. Do I care? No.

Neither should you. Perhaps you should stick to experiencing icing in your 182 while the ice season still has any oomph. Do you think?

That was a rhetorical question.

Mattpilot made the following statement, and ended it with a smiley face:



Perhaps mattpilot, you think that's funny. But before you put cute little smileyfaces at the end of such asinine, ignorant, stupid-assed pinheaded comments, you ought to find out just what the hell you're talking about. Do you think?

That wasn't a rhetorical question.

Incidentally, brightspark...how do you get an "active runway" without a control tower? Your'e the intelligent one, far smarter than any "gung ho" ag aviator, and probably understand the business a lot more...so answer that one. Can you have an "active runway" at an uncontrolled field? (just say no)

Incidentally, my first boss in ag aviation had been doing it fifty years when he died. In his sleep.

You sound like one of those guys that reports a near mid-air if you see another aircaft within the same county...and go-around if you see opposing traffic. Sounds to me like that "gung-ho" ag pilot probably figured rightly that he had plenty of time to get down, and didn't want to be bothered with four or five weekend warriors who felt they knew more than everybody else, flew space shuttle patterns, and had all the time in the world.

Some of us actually work for a living, you know.

I used to spray just outside Tulsa. In fact, I recall one busy little gravel strip where we were flying...a female flight instructor made seen attempts to land there one day. Every time she tried to land, someone was either landing the opposite direction or taking off the opposite direction. She finally ran out of fuel and landed anyway. She was frothing at the mouth and fuming and wanted to have a piece of every one of us. She was probably more upset because we were laughing at her. And she deserved it.

Perhaps a handheld radio might have saved her day.

Avbug, there is no need for name calling, as stated earlier, Airmets are commonly issued in my part of the country because a thin layer above warm air may exist. I take these seriously and sometimes with a grain of salt.

True, it may be dumb if the necessary precautions and plan B's aren't thoroughly investigated, but I can assure you, they are on my behalf. I still stand by my words and will regardless of what you say, we will leave it at that, I also recognize that you have forgotten more about aviation then I will ever know, hence the questions, I am only trying to become a better more informed pilot that has made mistakes in the past, I think it unnecessary to constantly degrade what I HAVE TO SAY so that others may learn, I am sick of being your whipping child.

There is no need to be rude to people asking legitimate questions, as of late, you seem to wake up on the wrong side of the bed more often than not. I only wish you could be less condescending to those with less experience than you. I don't go out of my way to bash you, when iI feel you are right, I won't hesitate to say so. I have been flying for 22 years, so i am no chump, please give me the same respect I have given you, that's all I ask. Flying isn't the only thing I do, But if it was, I can promise I would know everything humanly possible related to my passion. As it is I spend 5hrs/day studying everything from engine mgmt to owner assisted annuals. In fact, I am attending Mike Bushes seminar at Indy on the 14th of May to further my knowledge, I am 41, by the time I'm 50 I hope to know half what you know.

My question still stands, why can't a crop duster use a handheld to improve traffic awareness, as stated earlier, seeing only is flawed and any extra tool can be a life saver. I want and respect your opinion on this without the fluff please.

 

[avbug]

Reckless flying is O.K.? He can ignore all part 91? Please enlighten us so we can stay well clear of these operations, if this is the case, they should be NOTAM'ed at the very least.

Here you just finished telling me how much you want to learn, right on the heels of telling us how reckless and dangerous we are, and smarting off about that which you don't know. Perhaps Mike Busch can teach you all about it.

Don't patronize me. It does little to engender a good disposition on my part.

My question still stands, why can't a crop duster use a handheld to improve traffic awareness, as stated ealier, seeing only is flawed and any extra tool can be a life saver. I want and respect your opinion on this without the fluff please.

Most ag aircraft are equipped with aircraft radios. Many ag pilots don't always use them. Fly, look, talk. Talking is a distant last. Mattpilot does enough talking for us...we don't need to broadcast when he's about. He makes radio calls for us. We should all be so lucky.

Why not a handheld in an ag airplane? With what third hand would we operate it?

 

[Flying Illini]

Boy you're right! What an Idiot. This guy's out trying to earn a living, helping farmers feed America, and the whole time, he's screwing up one of your bazillion 747 T&G patterns. Oh the Humanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TOOL

If the story is true, and things were as tight as he explained them to be, then yes, the guy in the ag plane is an idiot, and a dangerous idiot at that.
Just cause the ag pilot is trying to earn a living, it gives him the right to use the opposite runway in a busy traffic pattern?! I don't think so. I guess that the instructors in those other planes who are also trying to "earn a living" don't rank as high as the ag pilot whose sworn duty is to protect the earth's crops at any cost, even if it means threatening the safety of other airmen.

 

[RightPedal]

Avbug beat me to it with his statement about with what third hand would you operate it with. One must set in that seat to understand.
Look at it this way, An agpilot is much like a highway patrolman or an ambulance driver. They operate different than the rest of us. He has everything under control and doesn't need any help from us but to stay focused and in control of our machine.
And be carefull about confronting one of those guys to. We all have herd that actions speak louder than words, and most of them boys don't got much to say, there's no time for it.

 

[Snakum]

So I guess it has become obvious by now that it was Avbug in a yellow Ag Cat scaring the hell out of everyone?

He has a TCAS monkey to do traffic watch for him when he's spraying, so everyone was safe, whether they knew it or not. The monkey sleeps most of the time, but when Avbug is heading for the airport, the monkey grabs the sides of the seat from behind, pulls himself forward so that his chin is actually resting on Avbug's noggin, and the little feller keeps his head on a constant 225 degree swivel. When he sees traffic he gives a little screech, which get louder and more urgent the closer the aircraft is to Avbug and his TCAS monkey. When he sees Flight Instructors giving primary dual he goes absolute ape $hit, so Avbug was, of course, in a hurry to get on the ground to shut the little bastidge up.

Minh

(Seriously though, assuming this guy really did exactly what was described, I'm surprised no one else thinks he was being reckless.)

 

[mattpilot]

Guys.. this ISN"T about using a radio!

This is about the ag pilot going AGAINST the traffic pattern that was being used by 5 other aircraft! Your right - SEE AND AVOID. Thats what we did! Except for the ag pilot of course. Apperently he can't find traffic with his eyes either - or just didn't care. And just because he sprays the fields for "us" so we can "eat", why the hell couldn't he just get the fook in the same pattern as the rest and make a normal landing INTO the wind?

I saved the day by making calls for him? Ha... funny. Are you implying that it would of been safer NOT to point out an aircraft that is landing on the opposite side of the runway in use for other aircraft? As for active runway - there is no designated runway, but i do believe common sense dictates that the runway being used by many other aircraft would be the runway in use - just to be on the safe side of course.

So just because you think an ag pilot, like yourself avbug, has been in the business for X years he can do what he wants, regardless how he affects the safety of others?

Okay....


btw.. that wasn't you Avbug, was it?

 

[mattpilot]

§ 137.29 General.
(c) The holder of an agricultural aircraft operator certificate may deviate from the provisions of Part 91 of this chapter without a certificate of waiver, as authorized in this subpart for dispensing operations, when conducting nondispensing aerial work operations related to agriculture, horticulture, or forest preservation in accordance with the operating rules of this subpart.

Funny you should quote that. Could you please highlight the words where it says that an ag user may also deviate from rules when he is conducting any operations not involving dispensing? Either he was spraying the airport with chemicals, or it seems like he wasn't operating in accordance with 91 rules.

The exception is limited to maneuvering to spray fields or other 'dispensing operations'. Returning to an airfield to fill up is not a dispensing operation, or is it? You tell me.

 

[HangerRat]

You city boys. . .If you go back to doing your touch and goes in the middle of town. . .You want have to worry about the good 'ol boys in the country.

Use your eyes rather than your mouth.

 

[Stinkbug]

Many, many times I've elected to use a different runway than what others are using, and rightfully so. Most of the time, all the little weekend lemmings flying the "active runway" see the light and switch runways, but not always so. Do I care? No.

"See and avoid" doesn't work so well when you guys are flying a 200' pattern. If you're gonna fly that low and not talk to anyone, I don't see the intelligence or professionalism in intentionally taking the opposite runway as someone who's departing. Furthermore, don't you think it would be wise to consider the experience level of the "lemmings" you're mocking? A pattern full of soloing student pilots and 300-hour flight instructors is not the place to be doing your own thing. Regs aside, it seems to me that what you're talking about, Avbug, is at best rude and at worst unsafe.

 

[TDTURBO]

Don't patronize me. It does little to engender a good disposition on my part

Your disposition needs to be endangered not engendered, it sucks! That IS the point!

You bring a lot of knowlege and experience to the table, no doubt, just find it in yourself not to be so harsh and judgmental on people that you may disagree with, that's all.

 

[NJA Capt]

Could you please highlight the words where it says that an ag user may also deviate from rules when he is conducting any operations not involving dispensing?

Uhhh...sure. try the next sentence.

§ 137.29 General.
(c) The holder of an agricultural aircraft operator certificate may deviate from the provisions of Part 91 of this chapter without a certificate of waiver, as authorized in this subpart for dispensing operations, when conducting nondispensing aerial work operations related to ...

 

[54tw]

deleted

 

[Catbird]

Maybe you should file a complaint with the Fed's. Or better stroll on over to Mr. Duster and quote a few Reg's to him and inform him that if he does it again your going to hit him with your purse. Get a grip you little Prick, go back to your home airport and burn the tires off whatever POS your learning to fly. My hats off to the fellow, next time I hope he has a little Heptaclor saved in the barn to hose your sorry rump.

 

[soarby007]

I've never flown Ag stuff, and I hesitate to engage myself into this fray, but as I read 137.45...

(d)the aircraft at all times remains clear of and gives way to, aircraft conforming to the traffic pattern for the airport. or

in it's entirety

137.45 Nonobservance of airport traffic pattern

Notwithstanding part 91 of this chapter, the pilot in command of an aircraft may deviate from an airport traffic pattern when authorized by the control tower concerned. At an airport without a functioning control tower, the pilot in command may deviate from the traffic pattern if---
(a)Prior coordination is made with the airport management concerned;
(b)deviations are limited to the agricultural aircraft operation;
(c)Except in an emergency, landing and takeoffs are not made on ramps, taxiways, or other areas of the airport not intended for such use;and (d) The aircraft at all times remains clear of, and gives way to, aircraft conforming to the traffic pattern for the airport.

I would imagine the airport involved does not have a tower. I don't have any indication that the operation did or did not engage in agricultural aircraft operation and therefore do not know if (b) applies. It would appear that (a) and (d) would apply.

It seems to me from a basic reading of the account that the AG pilot probably should have complied with the standard traffic pattern recommended in the AIM or facility directory or as established by the airport management. Operating in a reckless manner does not require a regulation to determine if it is or not.

As for the radio, I think a lot of military guys are multi-functional and have mike buttons on the stick. I don't think operating in a traffic pattern requires an extraordinary amount of skill to include a radio in the operation, not that a radio saves you, but it is a tool that the modern age as adapted to. A lot of gliders also don't have radios for various reasons and some older aircraft also don't have radios. Most do.

I have always respected and appreciated the skills of an AG pilot, but really this seems to have been uncalled for as it was described by Mattpilot, regardless of his own problems.

 

[NJA Capt]

A pattern full of soloing student pilots and 300-hour flight instructors is not the place to be doing your own thing.

Maybe an airport with an active ag operation isn't the place to be soloing students. You can do T&Gs anywhere, but they have to operate near the fields they are spraying.

I am more scared trying to land a jet with a pattern full of "300 hr instructors." Especially the young lady who, after acknowledging our pattern (yes we flew a L traffic pattern), decided to do a sim eng out to an intersecting runway...at the same time.

Give me the ag pilots.

 

[54tw]

deleted

 

[Stinkbug]

Maybe an airport with an active ag operation isn't the place to be soloing students.

Good point.