FAPA - the ball is in your court.

[Fubijaakr]

So easy from the outside looking in.

Midwest pilots HELD THE LINE and REFUSED draconian pay cuts to RAH levels. 75% of us paid the ultimate price and were furloughed. Those pay cuts will now be forced on us through the elimination of our fleet and integration into RAH.

Unfortunately, furloughed guys get screwed in SLIs. Bottom of the list. That sucks.

 

[Atlanta Vicks]

they don't need scope relief at F8, they can expand the Midwest 190s as much as they want and just do a marketing agreement with F8 if they don't get the scope relief they are looking for.

You mean like this?

Codeshare Announced with Midwest Airlines
Agreement will expand destinations for our customers

We're happy to announce that Frontier Airlines will soon launch a codeshare program with Milwaukee-based Midwest Airlines.

This is good news both for our Company and our customers. Customers of both airlines will benefit from a wider choice of travel destinations, additional flight options and connection possibilities, as well as the ability to book their entire flight on a single ticket. In addition to expanding our network, Midwest adds yet another marketing partner with the new codeshare.

Under the codeshare, Frontier's F9 code will be placed on Midwest flights in select markets, providing our customers the ability to connect in Milwaukee to destinations in the Ohio Valley and East Coast, including Cleveland, Fort Myers, Indianapolis, Nashville, New York-LaGuardia, Orlando, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Tampa and Washington, D.C.-National.

Similarly, Midwest's YX code will be placed on Frontier flights in select markets, allowing their customers to connect in Denver to Frontier and Lynx destinations including Aspen, Colorado Springs, Boise, Billings, Bozeman, Rapid City and other destinations in the Rocky Mountain region.

“This partnership allows us to broaden our network and provide even more destinations to our loyal customers,” Sean said. “We also look forward to showcasing our airlines to many new customers who may be flying Frontier and Lynx for the first time by connecting from Midwest. We believe the synergy between our two airlines will serve our customers well.”

Travelers can purchase tickets and fly on the codeshare routes beginning Aug. 30. Additional codeshare cities will be added following the initial launch.

In addition to the codeshare, this new marketing relationship will include a reciprocal frequent flyer agreement, allowing members of the Frontier EarlyReturns and the Midwest Miles programs to earn and redeem miles on either airline. We plan to roll that out later this year.

 

[aussieflyboy]

How can someone like BB with such questionable morals who seemingly loses no sleep f***ing with peoples livelihoods at any possible opportunity have the gaul to call himself a "Reverend". What a ******* hypocrite!

Man of God my a$$...

 

[StaySeated]

Educate yourselves, this is why we are such easy targets.

I am not attacking anyone personally, but this thread is yet another example of pilots not thinking for themselves and depending on others to spoon-feed them critical information.

No, the RAH proposal is not being "fastracked". The entire initial proposal can be found in a number of places. Take five minutes, look it up and read it. There are legal procedures that need to be followed.

MEH actually had scope that protected them from RAH, but an arbitrator ruled that what RAH was doing was a codeshare and not an alterego. If you picked ten CBA's off of a shelf you would probably find the exact same MEH scope language in 6 or 7 other airlines' contracts.

There are no other bidders, as of yesterday. The law states that after an initial qualifying bid, additional bids can be made if they meet certain requirements. Now that the price has been set, and it can be argued that RAH is actually offering closer to $60 Million, I would be shocked if there weren't more intersted parties.

I am biased, no offense to the RAH pilots, but I really hope another "similiar" airline throws $113.25 Million our way (that is the starting point now for any additional bids, $109.75 for F9 plus $3.5 termination fee for RAH).

Maybe we can start a paypal link and buy ourselves.

 

[BoilerUP]

How can someone like BB with such questionable morals who seemingly loses no sleep f***ing with peoples livelihoods at any possible opportunity have the gaul to call himself a "Reverend". What a ******* hypocrite!

Simma down there.

Bedford doesn't call himself "Reverend"; other people call him that as a poke against his overt evangelizing of his employees.

 

[aussieflyboy]

Haha ok i stand corrected (and look like a fool)... I was just going on the line from RAH's own webpage... we believe that everyone is created in the likeness and image of god, or other such drivel...

I thought that BB might have been the driving force behind that statement...

Even if he wasn't, it still doesn't change the fact that he's a d**khead

 

[starchkr]

I am not attacking anyone personally, but this thread is yet another example of pilots not thinking for themselves and depending on others to spoon-feed them critical information.

No, the RAH proposal is not being "fastracked". The entire initial proposal can be found in a number of places. Take five minutes, look it up and read it. There are legal procedures that need to be followed.

MEH actually had scope that protected them from RAH, but an arbitrator ruled that what RAH was doing was a codeshare and not an alterego. If you picked ten CBA's off of a shelf you would probably find the exact same MEH scope language in 6 or 7 other airlines' contracts.

There are no other bidders, as of yesterday. The law states that after an initial qualifying bid, additional bids can be made if they meet certain requirements. Now that the price has been set, and it can be argued that RAH is actually offering closer to $60 Million, I would be shocked if there weren't more intersted parties.

I am biased, no offense to the RAH pilots, but I really hope another "similiar" airline throws $113.25 Million our way (that is the starting point now for any additional bids, $109.75 for F9 plus $3.5 termination fee for RAH).

Maybe we can start a paypal link and buy ourselves.

I hear ya, but i thought the auction couldn't start until the judge ruled on the purchase first which happens on July 13th(?) then we go through the 30 day auction period. That's what all the paperwork i have seen says. So for now we will not know if there are any other bidders, we muct wait until July 13th(?) to find out.

Also, i know i said before that i would not want to be on the SWA seniority list, but after finding this RAH offer out, i now wish to officially change my mind. I would feel safer if SWA were to purchase us, but i would still have little confidence in them keeping us around. Ok, back to feeling positive about this!!! Gotta keep the spirits high and the drinks coming!

 

[BoilerUP]

Honest question:

Do people actually think SWA would buy Frontier?

If so, why?

 

[Fubijaakr]

SWA isn't buying F9. B6 perhaps, not SWA

 

[StaySeated]

Honest question:

Do people actually think SWA would buy Frontier?

If so, why?

I don't think that they will but there are some reasonable reasons why they would.

1. If you look at SWA's entry into virtually every market you see the same exact trend repeated. BWI, MDW, OAK, PHL, DEN, ect. SWA enters, prices drop, at least one carrier departs the market, prices rise and SWA captures a profitable market share. We (F9) have not left DEN yet, so prices are still very soft. If we were to leave, prices would rise and the market would be profitable for SWA. SWA could purchase F9 and have the same effect has driving us out of the market. The question is how much is SWA losing per quarter in DEN and how does that relate to our "price". This made more sense late last year compared to today.

2. If RAH enters the market and keeps F9 in denver in some way, shape, or form then SWA will never accomplish their mission. Prices will always remain soft and SWA will be competing against F9's much lower CASM or even worse, RAH's fleet of 190's. RAH's entry into the DEN market should increase SWA's interest exponentially.

Who knows what will happen, if my career wasn't on the line I would find the entire thing rather entertaining. From where I sit, it just sucks.

 

[tweeter125]

Gary Kelly has stated that he would not want to be the guys that "put the hometown airline out of business."

That being said I would like to roam the halls of the A concourse again and I am somewhat confident the F9 guys would rather be on our seniority list than Republics. I could be wrong.

Gup

I bet that there are some ATA guys that would scoff at that quote.

For that matter, to those of you at Frontier wishing for SW to swoop in and out bid RAH, please refer to the above and ask yourself..... How did that work out for ATA?

 

[The Victors]

I don't think that they will but there are some reasonable reasons why they would.

1. If you look at SWA's entry into virtually every market you see the same exact trend repeated. BWI, MDW, OAK, PHL, DEN, ect. SWA enters, prices drop, at least one carrier departs the market, prices rise and SWA captures a profitable market share. We (F9) have not left DEN yet, so prices are still very soft. If we were to leave, prices would rise and the market would be profitable for SWA. SWA could purchase F9 and have the same effect has driving us out of the market. The question is how much is SWA losing per quarter in DEN and how does that relate to our "price". This made more sense late last year compared to today.

2. If RAH enters the market and keeps F9 in denver in some way, shape, or form then SWA will never accomplish their mission. Prices will always remain soft and SWA will be competing against F9's much lower CASM or even worse, RAH's fleet of 190's. RAH's entry into the DEN market should increase SWA's interest exponentially.

Who knows what will happen, if my career wasn't on the line I would find the entire thing rather entertaining. From where I sit, it just sucks.

SWA makes money in DEN. It's been publicly stated several times that DEN is the most profitable opening city ever for swa. The only reason that F9"s CASM might be slightly lower (not sure about the exact numbers, but the only airline with lower CASM that I know of is AirTran and it's only slightly lower) is because the employees continue to vote themselves paycuts. That being said, I agree that swa should take a long look at this situation and I agree they probably don't want to deal with lower prices from RAH.

 

[The Victors]

I bet that there are some ATA guys that would scoff at that quote.

For that matter, to those of you at Frontier wishing for SW to swoop in and out bid RAH, please refer to the above and ask yourself..... How did that work out for ATA?

Swa did not purchase ATA. It was a codeshare. There's a difference. If Swa actually purchased F9, it would be different than the ATA deal.

 

[njcapt]

Swa did not purchase ATA. It was a codeshare. There's a difference. If Swa actually purchased F9, it would be different than the ATA deal.

If you think that SWA didn't exercise day to day control over ATA in order to drive them out of MDW, I have a bridge to sell you. Just because the current situation doesn't exactly mirror the one that existed during the ATA deal, don't think for a minute that your management wouldn't burn F9 to the ground and salt the earth in terminal 1 to do away with a competitor in a city important to them.

 

[Newf Dog]

SWA did not purchase ATA. They loaned them money and structured the deal to their benefit in shrewd fashion. SWA played it smart.

You are correct in that if SWA played the same game with Frontier then yes, they could just as easily burn Frontier to the ground and come out really nice.

In a straight purchase, F9 would probably also be gone (or maybe not but most likely in time yes) however the pilots would make out OK with merger via Allegheny-Mohawk which is the current law for non-ALPA carriers.

Notice I didn't say that F9 pilots would make out great, good or just dandy. They will do "OK." The definition of "OK" may be better for some than for others. I think I could safely say that part of that definition would include "a lot better than if we got merged with Republic." Who knows what the rest of that definition would look like.

Frontier has just earned a profit for the 7th month in a row. It's a shame that they fought so hard only to come up so short but they simply don't have the money to come out of this in one piece by themselves. They will need someone to give them the money and let them keep on roughly "as is" or they will need to be bought by a carrier such as jetBlue or SWA where they (I'm speaking only for the pilots side here) have a chance of something "OK" under Allegheny-Mohawk. Aside from that the F9 pilots are toast in a matter of a few short years with a republic type deal. Anybody thinking otherwise is delusional IMHO.

There are other suitors for F9 out there. They have done their "due diligence" and know the results of the cost-benefit analysis. The "market price" has now been set. We'll see if any of those suitors decide to continue in the game.

As much as I love Frontier if I were outside the airline business and had the cash I wouldn't give them the money. If I were inside the business at one of a few strategic carriers I could see a play here.