FAM's and the Jumpseat

[Papa Woody]

If she's HOT and wears a bikini, otherwise, NFW!

 

[WalterSobchak]

From all of us Dispatchers, Thanks a bunch for your support.

Ditto...

As someone who has been bumped out of the jumpseat on my company's metal by a Fed who was originally claimed to be "working", yet later admitted he was "just trying to get to L.A.", I'm all for keeping government guys that are abusing the jumpseat out. And the TSA execs...F--K those useless pieces of crap.

However, as far as keeping all of us out...let's not forget some of us outside of the pilot ranks use the jumpseat responsibly to commute and as a last resort when there are no other seats available.

 

[Rally]

I have no problem with mechanics, dispatchers, FA's, ATC employees riding in the jumpseat. TSA is going to make for a mess. I would just ask that pilots get priority and FA's and mechanics, stick to jump seating on their particular airline. The issue of the jumpseat now is security and FA's and mechanics and the guys doing ATC just aren't a real risk.

 

[dojetdriver]

any and all FAMs would be welcome on my jumpseat any day for any reason. You think they have such a wonderful and easy job, apply for it and see if you can get through their training course.

you frickin' morons.

Maybe so, but just like us, they "chose" that life.

 

[dispatchguy]

I asked a friend of mine who has been a FAM from shortly after 9/11, and was in one of the first FAM classes after 9/11.

His response was that it was an "urban legend". He wishes that they did have access (he worked as flight ops management at a major in the early 90s and had jumpseat authority there), but that the higher management shmoes at the TSA wont do it.

So no, no FAMs in the Jumpseat.

 

[machaf]

FAMS will NEVER sit in the jumpseat. END OF STORY!

That article was written in 2006. So believing BS about the AD by the USAir guy is utter BS.

 

[rickair7777]

From all of us Dispatchers, Thanks a bunch for your support.

Nothing personal at all, but I'm a commuter and I need to be able to get to work. A big change in JS priority might make it impossible for many pilots to commute.

The cold, hard fact is that if you give them an inch, they will take a mile...if you let company non-pilots access the jumpseat for personal travel, they will very quickly lobby for access based on company seniority, ie ahead of junior company pilots and all other-airline pilots. The reality is that many pilots went into this industry with the expectation of being able to commute...it's too important for most of us to give up lightly.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Nothing personal at all, but I'm a commuter and I need to be able to get to work. A big change in JS priority might make it impossible for many pilots to commute.

Are you so short-sighted that you truly believe that dispatchers would be put ahead of you in JS priority? Oh, wait...you're a pilot. I forget that so many of you are not capable of anything BUT short-sighted. In that case, let me help you...JS priority at pretty much every carrier is as it should be: Company pilot by seniority, company dispatcher by seniority, off-line pilot by check-in time, off-line dispatcher by check-in time.

I have bumped an off-line pilot out of the jumpseat all of once on my company's metal. I felt bad about it, we tried like hell to figure out a way to get the guy on...but I had to get to work, too and had a much earlier show-time the next morning than that guy...and that's why the priority list exists.

Any major changes affect not only pilots, but affect us, too (*gasp*, yes...other workgroups beyond pilots DO exist). And, if you think a change in JS priority will piss pilots off...take away a dispatcher's JS privileges altogether and see what happens. I think that would be the one thing to force a mass revolt amongst dispatchers everywhere...JS access is the one perk we have left.

Listen, we know it's a privilege and not a right...but, contrary to what you think, it is not the dispatchers (or even the FA's or Mechanics) that you need to be worried about bumping you out of the JS...it is the pieces of crap like TSA execs, etc. trying to gain access that will abuse it that you need to worry about.

 

[dispatchguy]

Commuting dispatcher here - every week - spend 40-50 hours a month in a jumpseat, only bumped a pilot once (a skynAAzi, so it felt gooood)

Those TSA exec jacka$$es better stay the hell away - they have NO BUSINESS in the jumpseat. I would have no prob with a FAM FAM ride where they get a one time ride in the jumpseat like an ATCer, but for mission purposes they need to be behind the chedder curtain; not in front of it.

 

[JAFI]

Look at the FAA inspectors...they have a business reason to be in the JS, but they have twisted that into having top priority for their own personal travel, any time, any where. This is a serious abuse of government authority...no airline employee should get bumped off of his own airplane because some fed wants to go to LAS or SAN for weekend. Ideally, FAA inspectors should have their official jumpseat rides scheduled by their boss in accordance with some sort of sensible inspection plan. If they're not on a scheduled inspection, they can buy a ticket like the rest of the general public.

All Inspector jumpseat requests must be approved by their supervisor as work related. That means going to and from a work location. Supervisors must review Inspector jumpseat activity on a regular basis. I do not know of any Inspector that "goes on vacation" using the jumpseat. It can be grounds for termination. If you have a problem, call their supervisor/office/region.

121.548 Aviation safety inspector's credentials: Admission to pilot's compartment.
Whenever, in performing the duties of conducting an inspection, an inspector of the Federal Aviation Administration presents form FAA 110A, “Aviation Safety Inspector's Credential,” to the pilot in command of an aircraft operated by a certificate holder, the inspector must be given free and uninterrupted access to the pilot's compartment of that aircraft.

121.581 Observer's seat: En route inspections.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, each certificate holder shall make available a seat on the flight deck of each airplane, used by it in air commerce, for occupancy by the Administrator while conducting en route inspections. The location and equipment of the seat, with respect to its suitability for use in conducting en route inspections, is determined by the Administrator.

 

[Sam Snead]

I do not know of any Inspector that "goes on vacation" using the jumpseat. It can be grounds for termination. If you have a problem, call their supervisor/office/region.

That sounds nice, but I would feel like that would paint a large red target on my back.

No, the culture amongst the inspectors must change, or they'll keep on doing it. How would a line pilot prove that the inspector wasn't "going to work" anyway?

On topic, if the FAMs get to ride in the cockpit, they'll just go ahead of everybody in priority, except a ACI or something.

You guys saying "deny, deny" talk big, but if the rules are amended to allow FAMs up front, you'll end up on the carpet if you deny, just like you would by denying a Fed. Sorry.

FWIW I don't believe FAMs should have cockpit access to ride.

 

[dispatchguy]

FWIW I don't believe FAMs should have cockpit access to ride.

What about a FAM FAM-ride? A single-segment where he can observe what goes on up front. I know that United USED to do that with flight attendants in training (I have no idea if they still do in a post 9/11 environment) - they could observe a single-segment so that they have an idea of what goes on in the wheel house.

I agree that under NO circumstances should FAMs have walk-up access; but I think a single-segment FAM FAM-ride would be ok - all pre-approved with the carrier with letters and such...

 

[JAFI]

That sounds nice, but I would feel like that would paint a large red target on my back.

Then call your chief pilot or Dir of OPS. Have them make the call. We get calls to ensure an Inspector is who they say they are. But that is an after the flight process. You normally do not have the time to demand justification for access to the jumpseat to an Inspector. When this happens to me I have said "sure lets call your chief pilot and get his/her input on who gets jumpseat - Lets call your POI or who ever you want". If you have a security question about an Inspector you can bring that up but you better make damn sure you are on solid ground.

Just remember that according to CFR 25, 135, and 121 the Inspector gets "Free and Uninterupted Access" to the cockpit/jumpseat.

 

[ROSWELL41]

What airlines allow dispatches access to the cockpit? I know at my airline that doesn't happen. Are dispatchers even CASS approved?

 

[dispatchguy]

Yes, dispatchers are in CASS - at those airlines that have CASS for the pilots, those dispatchers at that office have insured that their dispatchers wont be forgotten.

 

[Sam Snead]

Then call your chief pilot or Dir of OPS. Have them make the call.

sorry, how does that keep the inspector involved from knowing which uppity pilot has complained about them?

If the inspector involved is indeed abusing his authority, what makes you think he won't abuse it again down the road and find something to write the complainer up about?

JAFI, you seem like a fair player but you must know some inspectors who would not be above retaliating in a case like this.

 

[JAFI]

Sam, I know an Inspector that was fired for abusing the jumpseat for only one unauthorized round trip. It can and most likely does happen. IMHO it is rare. Not many want to "bet" their job they won't get caught getting free transportation. When I go on vacation I drive a car. The jump seat is not how I enjoy traveling.
Your concern about an Inspector looking to find you after you catch him/her jumpseating on vacation can be real. Remember we ALL have to answer to some one. If you have trouble I would give Congressman Oberstar a phone call (House Transportation Commette - They oversee the FAA). He would just love to hear from you.

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have documentation/evidence when you make a charge.

As far as TSA getting access. I do not see any justification. Cockpit access needs to be secure.

 

[ROSWELL41]

Yes, dispatchers are in CASS - at those airlines that have CASS for the pilots, those dispatchers at that office have insured that their dispatchers wont be forgotten.

So for dispatchers that commute, do you commute back and forth each day to work? Do you buy a hotel for the night when you are working?

 

[MaceyHold]

So for dispatchers that commute, do you commute back and forth each day to work? Do you buy a hotel for the night when you are working?

I know of a couple that do the daily commute although that's kinda tough for most since we have to start working about an hour before your show time, or finish about an hour after your duty off time

When I was commuting it was on a weekly basis (4on-3off shifts). 4-years commuting and lived in a crashpad while working.

 

[rickair7777]

Are you so short-sighted that you truly believe that dispatchers would be put ahead of you in JS priority? Oh, wait...you're a pilot. I forget that so many of you are not capable of anything BUT short-sighted. In that case, let me help you...JS priority at pretty much every carrier is as it should be: Company pilot by seniority, company dispatcher by seniority, off-line pilot by check-in time, off-line dispatcher by check-in time.

I have bumped an off-line pilot out of the jumpseat all of once on my company's metal. I felt bad about it, we tried like hell to figure out a way to get the guy on...but I had to get to work, too and had a much earlier show-time the next morning than that guy...and that's why the priority list exists.

Any major changes affect not only pilots, but affect us, too (*gasp*, yes...other workgroups beyond pilots DO exist). And, if you think a change in JS priority will piss pilots off...take away a dispatcher's JS privileges altogether and see what happens. I think that would be the one thing to force a mass revolt amongst dispatchers everywhere...JS access is the one perk we have left.

Listen, we know it's a privilege and not a right...but, contrary to what you think, it is not the dispatchers (or even the FA's or Mechanics) that you need to be worried about bumping you out of the JS...it is the pieces of crap like TSA execs, etc. trying to gain access that will abuse it that you need to worry about.

Not sure why we're all worked up here, dispatchers already have JS access, right? To clarify, I'm not advocating that we take it away from anyone who already has it....