Fallout from an age 60-Rule change

[Cyclone]

jim

jim you win

 

[Jim Smyth]

I dont come to this forum to lie or to try to start flame wars. I would also never put down in my proflie anything that wasnt correct. That to me lends itself to lack of charactor if in fact it is untrue.

 

[Flopgut]

Money, greed........well we have arguments for that on both sides. The way I see it is that everyone gets the choice to fly past 60 if/when the rule changes. If you want to be a hero when you get to 60 you can retire and give that other guy his shot in the big leagues. Just remember that when you leave you have no income, no medical, no social security. I think when your time comes you will be singing a different tune!

I paid my dues at more than one airline. I will continue to fly until 60 at the current rules or 65 if the rules get changed. Money concerns and flying past 60 for me at least are secondary to medical coverage issues (or lack there of) that can wipe out any money you may have saved for retirement pretty fast .[/quote]

Jim: Did having no income, no medical, and no social security surprise you? Were you caught off guard? You have been in control of this for some time now. If it looked like SWA was not going to provide you with what you needed to retire with you should have negotiated better wages! How many contracts have you been through? You should have addressed this in at least one of them. Or, since you are so darn great, why didn't you take you talents elsewhere? Been a brain surgeon or something?

I have a flightplan for retirement, I want to fly that plan. (BTW, mine has to include NEVER getting any SS) That means you go at 60, and I go at 60. Five more years as costar for me doesn't really help, I just work longer.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Jim: Did having no income, no medical, and no social security surprise you? Were you caught off guard? You have been in control of this for some time now. If it looked like SWA was not going to provide you with what you needed to retire with you should have negotiated better wages! How many contracts have you been through? You should have addressed this in at least one of them. Or, since you are so darn great, why didn't you take you talents elsewhere? Been a brain surgeon or something?

I have a flightplan for retirement, I want to fly that plan. (BTW, mine has to include NEVER getting any SS) That means you go at 60, and I go at 60. Five more years as costar for me doesn't really help, I just work longer.

Nope, no surprises at all. Been planning on retirement since I was in my mid to upper twenties when I started my IRA's. I had very wise parents with old school values to learn from.

SWA has a formula where you can turn in part of your sick bank that you accumulated to receive medical benefits until you reach age 65. In our last contract extension they gave us the option to also use those sick trips to bring your wife along for the ride too. My wife is 7 years younger than me so I need alot of sick trips. I should have enough sick trips for me and the wife to go to age 65 medically through SWA in 2 years with what I have accumulated already. Now with that being said what if I get hurt down the road and cant work for a year while out on a medical? I would have to use all my sick trips up and then at age 60 would have nothing left. So then I would have no medical insurance after age 60 and would have a hard time getting it if needed. Thats my big concern. If I have the option to go to 65 then this is a non issue because I will have insurance until 65 and have to just worry about the wife after that.

I have been through 1 contract at SWA. It has lasted 11 years now ( 2 extensions) and has 1 more year to go. They did make improvments to our medical after retirement and also made improvements to our compensation. Since I am assuming that money wont be the big issue this time around (section 6 next year) with whats going on in the industry we may close up a few of those loop holes that we currently have in our contract, medical issues being one of them.

I am actualy not that smart. I am a Average "C" type of a guy is all. But I do have alot of common sense. I am well prepared for retirement at age 60. Going to age 65 would just be a bonus as far as not worring about medical coverage (current conditions) or tapping the retirement nest egg. If in our next contract SWA and SWAPA changes the medical issue for us, I may be retiring earlier than 60. Like I said before, security,rude hotel guests,check rides etc get pretty old after a while.

You are wise to not plan on Socail Security because if you are young it may not be there when you are old. It also may not be there for me or if it is I am assuming it will be a greatly reduced rate especially if you have money saved already. Planning this all out when your young is deffinately the way to go.

 

[Purpledog]

I really don't think this is about economics, but rather if the original rule was proper to begin with.

Bah ha ha ha ha! If you had brought this up pre-9/11 you would have been crucified by all the people begging for change now (minus LCCs). This is purely about money. I don't hold it against them, I'd be doing the same thing also if I had a family (2 ex's, Bimmer payment, giant mortgage, boat payment) to support. I want it to stay, b/c of my family, whom I plan on spending a lot of time with when I retire at 55. To each his own.Bureaucratic
inertia is in our favor. Fight's on!

 

[Flopgut]

Nope, no surprises at all. Been planning on retirement since I was in my mid to upper twenties when I started my IRA's. I had very wise parents with old school values to learn from.

SWA has a formula where you can turn in part of your sick bank that you accumulated to receive medical benefits until you reach age 65. In our last contract extension they gave us the option to also use those sick trips to bring your wife along for the ride too. My wife is 7 years younger than me so I need alot of sick trips. I should have enough sick trips for me and the wife to go to age 65 medically through SWA in 2 years with what I have accumulated already. Now with that being said what if I get hurt down the road and cant work for a year while out on a medical? I would have to use all my sick trips up and then at age 60 would have nothing left. So then I would have no medical insurance after age 60 and would have a hard time getting it if needed. Thats my big concern. If I have the option to go to 65 then this is a non issue because I will have insurance until 65 and have to just worry about the wife after that.

I have been through 1 contract at SWA. It has lasted 11 years now ( 2 extensions) and has 1 more year to go. They did make improvments to our medical after retirement and also made improvements to our compensation. Since I am assuming that money wont be the big issue this time around (section 6 next year) with whats going on in the industry we may close up a few of those loop holes that we currently have in our contract, medical issues being one of them.

I am actualy not that smart. I am a Average "C" type of a guy is all. But I do have alot of common sense. I am well prepared for retirement at age 60. Going to age 65 would just be a bonus as far as not worring about medical coverage (current conditions) or tapping the retirement nest egg. If in our next contract SWA and SWAPA changes the medical issue for us, I may be retiring earlier than 60. Like I said before, security,rude hotel guests,check rides etc get pretty old after a while.

You are wise to not plan on Socail Security because if you are young it may not be there when you are old. It also may not be there for me or if it is I am assuming it will be a greatly reduced rate especially if you have money saved already. Planning this all out when your young is deffinately the way to go.

Fascinating Jim, you have thought of everything. I am guessing you are very fastidious and probably an allright person to fly with. (I am guessing too that I would go home from a trip with you exhausted from lectures on FMC technique and the like) I am certain you have exceeded my loftiest goals for myself in almost all aspects of personal and professional life (health, $, career progression, retirement) so don't take this as condescending. I think you personify the selfishness of this issue on the part of your pilot demographic. You indicate as much when you characterize SWAPA contract negotiation. Sure sec 6 is going to be a hard one to improve on for your group. Other SWA types, FOs to be correct, have theorized possible wage cuts in the future. And we know how work ethic is such a core value so don't look for any "soft time" type QOL extras, which have actually been denuded entirely from the passenger flying business. No, for sure this business has changed and it may even effect pilots' careers at SWA, yet you have no apprehension toward making a claim on five extra years at the top for yourself. A "bonus". Don't really need it, but it sure would be nice. The generation behind you will have to work as hard or harder for increasingly less in their careers and your solution to that is letting them work longer? Wow, you're a nice guy. Additionally, this claim that your health insurance issue is the tipping point really grates on me. You can find another job! If you retirement age pilots are so darn experienced and capable then it should be a good one. Matter of fact, if you can get yourself hired at Netjets, I believe they have comprehensive health benefits that are free! So you can keep that young wife of yours, and yourself, fit as a fiddle! That way while you are both out mountain biking and basking in the wealth and health of airline pilot retirement monies coupled with an exciting new career endeavor, you can think of how great the UAL furloughee is going to feel finally getting recalled because pilots retire at 60. Finally being able to get ulcers, chronic back pain, or other injuries treated because they have regular insurance now as a backstop to financial ruin. An artificially aged and tired spouse and kids can all get re-aclimated to life with health care like you have always had. You have a cute little chilling scenario where a health problem post age 60 wipes out your retirement monies. Scary to be sure, but let me ask you this: is that sort of thing any less scary for someone younger and furloughed without insurance? Please don't say its going to be less a problem for them because they have more time left to work and can make it up. This could be a sick child, are you going to tell me they can just have another? It follows your logic!

We have a somewhat "sinking ship" here Jim, do the "women and children" get the lifeboats, or do you need one just for you?

 

[Jim Smyth]

No lectures from me at all. I dont ever bring up the subject of age 60 unless asked about it. FO's and possible wage cuts? Huh? It looks like we are going to be posting record profits his year. It would be pretty hard for the company to come back and ask for wage cuts now wouldnt it! Most guys dont see alot more money this contract with whats going on in the industry. So you then work on things that close some contract loop holes that arnt that expensive. Guys in the union have expressed concerns about our current medical after retirement coverage or lack there of so I know it will be addressed this time.

I personally dont want to go find another job, thank you. I have one right now that fits me just fine. Live in base and dont commute. We at SWA dont have anyone thats layed off and "Never have". So what, I should just ah, ok, I will retire at 60 (if the age changes to 65) so some guy can get hired thats furloughed from (pick an airline)? I dont think so! I will retire when it suits me and my family.

What I tried showing is my reasoning to continue on past 60 if necessary working within the SWA system. Hopefully working past 60 for me will be a non issue but it would be a nice choice if the cards dont fall in the right direction at the right time.

So the young guys have health issues too huh? I feel for them, especially the ones furloughed/out of a job. In 1991 the airline I worked for went out of business. I had a wife, 2 kids and a house. I went out and paid for a 6 month catastrofic health insurance policy with a $10,000 deductable so I wouldnt be wiped out if anything really bad happened. That was money we didnt have at the time so it really hurt. First time in my life that I had no income and alot of family responsibility. I went out, delivered catering through the holidays,worked in a friends body shop and then drove a semi until I got back with another airline. I know what its like to be out there on the outside looking in. It sucks! But it doesnt change my views and I am sure it wont change yours either. We are made up of our life experiances and mine arnt the same as anyone elses.

 

[Spooky 1]

Jim, your wasting your time trying to convince these guys/gals that the age 60 rule is a bad thing. They are hell bent on saving every furloughed pilot even though there are other jobs flying jobs to be had albeit some might not be as good as the one you may have furloughed from. Even that has changed dramatically in the last few years I am afraid. So, if every furloughed pilot was recalled, what would the argument be then? Give it up Jim, go out and hit some balls. Relax some so you can enjoy that flying at age 63, or what ever comes along out of this. Obviously one's right to work is only extended to those young folks. Us older guys need to learn a few things about speak'n up and causing such trouble.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Ya, your right. I'm done.

 

[Airmike767]

The Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee passed the amended Senate Bill 65 on November 17 with a voice vote. It was amended by several factors. First the age 65 limit, second the limitation on two pilots over 60(either could be over 60 but not both), third there is a clause that prevents a retired pilot from sueing for his job back or for his seniority.

The bill was marked up for a vote before the full Senate. If passed it would be effective within thirty days of ICAO implementing their age 65 policy, currently 11/23/2006.

The House will still have to have a go at this as well as the President (who said he would sign it). The ALPA poll was very skewed and has forever lost my participation with the wilson Center for Aviation Propaganda!