Falcon 900EX vs. G-IV SP

[BoilerUP]

There is no way a 7X beats the EMB in operating cost. Gawd help you the first time something breaks on your Frogjet (and trust me it will).

You're exactly right - there's no way a purpose-built 7X could possibly be more efficient than & operate for less cost than a converted regional airliner.

I'm sure ARG/US and Conklin just make those figures up anyway...

You're flying a legacy (heh) 650-series Citation designed in the early 80s...you realize comparing it to a Legacy 600 is apples to mangos, right?

 

[Quimby]

Not me man. I will take lower pay and a Legacy any day of the week. Falcons are okay. Better than Cessnas any way. To me the Legacy itself is QOL. The airplane takes care of its crew better than anything I've flown so far. Other than a Lineage I don't imagine any other jet will do as well in that department and that is worth more than money to me. (And G200, I know half a dozen guys making well over $120K a year in the EMB here in the States--guys overseas do better still. That's a heck of a lot more than this non-Legacy pays me, and more than the Falcon did.)

How much lower pay? 5K, 10K, 50K? Just wondering what your threshold is to sit in the seat of the Legacy.

 

[Sandhawk]

I don't think he's saying you rely on the T/R to stop in terms of factoring it in. He's referring to the fact that the stopping power of the brake/tire/ABS combo of the Falcon being poor/unreliable. So by default the T/R is all ya' really got (and all it does is make noise).

Sorry Sam, the Falcon brakes are just fine......


Talk about raising the bar -

- He says he will fly a Legacy for less (undercutting the professionals)

- He says he doesn't like the Falcon because HE can't land it well (hell, anybody can land a Taco Rocket with the trailing link gear)

- He has less than favorable nicknames for many of the pilots at his former dept - none are as good as the "mighty LD"

- Talks about what a POS the Gulfstream and Dassault products are, even though he professes to never have flown a G and has minimal time in a 50EX

- At least he quit the bible thumping some time ago......

 

[Gulfstream 200]

No joke. When it is 120 degrees outside and I'm nice and comfortable in my Legacy cockpit vs sweating my a** off in a Falcon or Cessna the paycheck doesn't make up for the misery.
There is no way a 7X beats the EMB in operating cost. Gawd help you the first time something breaks on your Frogjet (and trust me it will).

LD,

How much would it cost to take a Legacy from KTEB-OERK (just an example)

Let us know.

Also - what kind of ROI have 2 year old Legacys had?

(this should be good)

New airplanes have a warranty, and under certain circumstances FalconCare can be the best deal in corporate aviation right now. Know what I mean?


Be careful here! - like the Aircraft Value stuff you were talking about earlier, I think you might be venturing from "mildly entertaining" to the "Derailed" area by talking about things you clearly have no experience or knowledge of.

Cool that Cessna cockpit down son, otherwise you may bake in that hot Texas sun.

 

[spxdriver]

No joke. When it is 120 degrees outside and I'm nice and comfortable in my Legacy cockpit vs sweating my a** off in a Falcon or Cessna the paycheck doesn't make up for the misery.

Again, LD, let's compare apples to apples. Compare the cooling capabilities of your 1984 Citation III to that of a 1984 Embraer Brasilia.

 

[ILOVEBEER]

LegacyDriver - alright, I'm convinced. You really are the Dbag everyone makes you out to be. Take your love affair with jungle jets somewhere else.

 

[pilotjc]

LD,

How much would it cost to take a Legacy from KTEB-OERK (just an example)

Let us know.

Also - what kind of ROI have 2 year old Legacys had?

(this should be good)

New airplanes have a warranty, and under certain circumstances FalconCare can be the best deal in corporate aviation right now. Know what I mean?


Be careful here! - like the Aircraft Value stuff you were talking about earlier, I think you might be venturing from "mildly entertaining" to the "Derailed" area by talking about things you clearly have no experience or knowledge of.

Cool that Cessna cockpit down son, otherwise you may bake in that hot Texas sun.

It's not nice to make fun of the mentally ill!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Amen JC! - no short of wackjobs in this business!!!

 

[gulfstreameric]

But to come back to the discussion;

In our company we have a few ex Falcon 50/900 hair dryer drivers, we took them on anyway.
We operate G4/G5's
These pilots unanimously state that the brakes and T/R's on a Gulfstream are impressive and that when flying into a contaminated runway they rather do so in a G then a Falcon with one T/R

There have been a few Falcon accidents where they were driven of the end in a contaminated rwy situation.
Of course Pilot Error is always a factor, seen any NTSB report without that wording ?
Seldomly !
So my point is I rather have two T/R's and some big brakes at any time then that "other" configuration.


And the money talk, is just poor owner management ...

 

[rumrnr78]

But to come back to the discussion;

In our company we have a few ex Falcon 50/900 hair dryer drivers, we took them on anyway.
We operate G4/G5's
These pilots unanimously state that the brakes and T/R's on a Gulfstream are impressive and that when flying into a contaminated runway they rather do so in a G then a Falcon with one T/R

There have been a few Falcon accidents where they were driven of the end in a contaminated rwy situation.
Of course Pilot Error is always a factor, seen any NTSB report without that wording ?
Seldomly !
So my point is I rather have two T/R's and some big brakes at any time then that "other" configuration.


And the money talk, is just poor owner management ...

Nice post. When I deployed the thrust reverser on the Falcon 50ex, I called it, the "party favour"

Cheers-

 

[Gulfstream 200]

But to come back to the discussion;

In our company we have a few ex Falcon 50/900 hair dryer drivers, we took them on anyway.
We operate G4/G5's
These pilots unanimously state that the brakes and T/R's on a Gulfstream are impressive and that when flying into a contaminated runway they rather do so in a G then a Falcon with one T/R

There have been a few Falcon accidents where they were driven of the end in a contaminated rwy situation.
Of course Pilot Error is always a factor, seen any NTSB report without that wording ?
Seldomly !
So my point is I rather have two T/R's and some big brakes at any time then that "other" configuration.


And the money talk, is just poor owner management ...

actually, having flown all of them....I'd rather take a Global into a short, icy runway long before a G4.....but ya gotta work with what you have.

"hair dryer???"....that witty one just isn't really catching on, huh?

Another favorite of mine is a tool on one of these boards who explained that since his Midwestern company added a G450/G550 to their Falcon Fleet a few years back they implemented a "company taxi speed limit" of 5 knots....because the mighty G550 is "such a big airplane"....I thought of that the other day when riding in an A380. Yes, you will only find such fanboy tools in corporate aviation folks.

Some still know its about the job, not the airplane....and will fly anything they are given if the job is good...

Like our fearless leader LD says - its not Rocket Surgery.

 

[Kingairrick]

So the case is seriously being made that a G450 is a better short field airplane that a 900EX? Wow, I don't even think our Gulfstream rep would try to sell that...
I've only been flying it for 6 years, but I've never had a situation where the 900EX made me nervous stopping. Just Sayin'...
All airplanes have their particular strengths and weaknesses. But if you're worried about landing field length in the 900EX, you shouldn't be going there in any large cabin aircraft.

 

[LJ45]

Having slats, I would imagine the Vref speeds in the Falcons and Globals are lower at typical landing weights.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I think the Refs are similar in all of them...I'd say 115KIAS is a good guess at lighter weights, maybe down to 110KIAS with 60-90min reserves??...none have high refs.

However, on an icy, windy runway I will take the GLEX or the G550 over the GIV brakes anyday....and all/any of them over the 3 engine Falcon due to the lack of TRs and the poor steering (relative)...

Also, if you want to get technical...there is not many runways you can legally land on in a Falcon when its icy. Always been a sore spot IMO....but really the plane lands and stops just fine if you have a brain in your head and a speck more of skill than the average Embrear pilot..... - its just something I keep in mind in the nasty months here in the NE. The newer Brake by Wire is much improved over older Falcons, but still.

Nobody can deny they are all great airplanes - A Gulfstream will take your furthest (is that good?) A Global is VERY comfortable, and none of them flies as nice as a 7X (IMO)...They should all pay fairly well (150k+?) and I'd fly any of them if the job was good. Hell, I bet I can even land them in crosswinds.

 

[pilotjc]

I think the Refs are similar in all of them...I'd say 115KIAS is a good guess at lighter weights, maybe down to 110KIAS with 60-90mon reserves??...none have high refs.

However, on an icy, windy runway I will take the GLEX or the G550 over the GIV brakes anyday....and all/any of them over the 3 engine Falcon due to the lack of TRs and the poor steering (relative)...

Also, if you want to get technical...there is not many runways you can legally land on in a Falcon when its icy. Always been a sore spot IMO....but really the plane lands and stops just fine - its just something I keep in mind in the nasty months here in the NE...the newer Brake by Wire is much improved over older Falcons..but still..

Nobody can deny they are all great airplanes - A Gulfstream will take your furthest (is that good?) A Global is VERY comfortable, and none of them flies as nice as a 7X (IMO)...They should all pay fairly well (150k+?) and I'd fly any of them if the job was good. Hell, I bet I can even land them in crosswinds.

With your eyes closed and one hand tied behind your back!

 

[Kingairrick]

Myth:

Also, if you want to get technical...there is not many runways you can legally land on in a Falcon when its icy.

Reality:
GLW:30000lbs (typical)
Landing field length:
Dry: 4132
Wet:4752
stand water or slush: 5951
snow (.5 inch): 3967
compacted snow: 4463
ice:8926

I've never noticed a shortage of 9000ft runways. Sure, you're not going to TEB. But, is that really such a bad thing?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Myth:

Reality:
GLW:30000lbs (typical)
Landing field length:
Dry: 4132
Wet:4752
stand water or slush: 5951
snow (.5 inch): 3967
compacted snow: 4463
ice:8926

I've never noticed a shortage of 9000ft runways. Sure, you're not going to TEB. But, is that really such a bad thing?

Reality: You just eliminated TEB/HPN/BDR/OXC/MMU...

Reality: Thats where 99% of the corporate jets are based in the NY Metro area, and where 99% of others come into. All landing illegally anytime theres an icy runway.

Yeah, thats kinda a bad thing.

I suppose you use JFK and EWR when coming up from Tampa?

 

[2EASYPilot]

Reality: You just eliminated TEB/HPN/BDR/OXC/MMU...

Reality: Thats where 99% of the corporate jets are based in the NY Metro area, and where 99% of others come into. All landing illegally anytime theres an icy runway.

Yeah, thats kinda a bad thing.

I suppose you use JFK and EWR when coming up from Tampa?

So, you guys land the G whiz on ice in TEB often...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

So, you guys land the G whiz on ice in TEB often...

If its in the numbers, why not? Not gonna land in TEB/MMU/HPN etc from December to March? That would be nice BTW.

I also fly a Falcon out of the Northeast - its just part of the job...my only point is that most non-fanboy Falcon pilots dont appreciate being thrown to the lions by Dassault and their absurd numbers.

Given the choice, I'd certainly land on a slick runway in a GLEX, Gxxx, or DA2000 over a 50/900/7X anyday. But at the end of the day we do our job reasonably and as safe as we can with what we are given.

And Yes, I wouldn't hesitate to divert to KSWF etc in a Falcon when the conditions dictate....somewhat sooner than I would divert in other aircraft.

Its a good airplane. Im not calling your mothers sluts here, dont take it personal....just pointing out the obvious shortcomings of the DA50/900/7X aircraft compared to others.

 

[2EASYPilot]

If its in the numbers, why not? Not gonna land in TEB/MMU/HPN etc from December to March? That would be nice BTW.

I also fly a Falcon out of the Northeast - its just part of the job...my only point is that most non-fanboy Falcon pilots dont appreciate being thrown to the lions by Dassault and their absurd numbers.

Given the choice, I'd certainly land on a slick runway in a GLEX, Gxxx, or DA2000 over a 50/900/7X anyday. But at the end of the day we do our job reasonably and as safe as we can with what we are given.

And Yes, I wouldn't hesitate to divert to KSWF etc in a Falcon when the conditions dictate....somewhat sooner than I would divert in other aircraft.

Its a good airplane. Im not calling your mothers sluts here, dont take it personal....just pointing out the obvious shortcomings of the DA50/900/7X aircraft compared to others.

Sorry if you thought I took it personal. I just asked a question. I do what I need to do to do my job safely. I have not bent any aircraft in 38 years of flying, Falcons or the other various jets I have flown. We seem to get too wrapped around the axle on these websites.

Let's just raise a toast to good health and the country we love...here's to you:beer:

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Anyone that lands on ice (BRAG reported nil) in any plane is a moron. I don't care how big your brakes are. Anyone who thinks TR's help their performance calculations is a bigger moron and has no business flying passengers in business aircraft.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Anyone that lands on ice (BRAG reported nil) in any plane is a moron. I don't care how big your brakes are. Anyone who thinks TR's help their performance calculations is a bigger moron and has no business flying passengers in business aircraft.

I dont recall anyone here saying they land during NIL braking action NOR do I recall anyone thinking that TRs improve performance calculations/numbers???

But Yes, I think all of us would agree with your post.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

I think the Refs are similar in all of them...I'd say 115KIAS is a good guess at lighter weights, maybe down to 110KIAS with 60-90min reserves??...none have high refs.

However, on an icy, windy runway I will take the GLEX or the G550 over the GIV brakes anyday....and all/any of them over the 3 engine Falcon due to the lack of TRs and the poor steering (relative)...

Also, if you want to get technical...there is not many runways you can legally land on in a Falcon when its icy. Always been a sore spot IMO....but really the plane lands and stops just fine if you have a brain in your head and a speck more of skill than the average Embrear pilot..... - its just something I keep in mind in the nasty months here in the NE. The newer Brake by Wire is much improved over older Falcons, but still.

Nobody can deny they are all great airplanes - A Gulfstream will take your furthest (is that good?) A Global is VERY comfortable, and none of them flies as nice as a 7X (IMO)...They should all pay fairly well (150k+?) and I'd fly any of them if the job was good. Hell, I bet I can even land them in crosswinds.

Actually, yes you did. You mentioned icy and tr's, therefore, moron and ignorant. Please give you your tail number so I can make sure no one I know flys on an airplane you might be piloting.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Actually, yes you did. You mentioned icy and tr's, therefore, moron and ignorant. Please give you your tail number so I can make sure no one I know flys on an airplane you might be piloting.

Yes, because people you know will be riding on our G550s?....

anyhow, Hugh -

Does icy mean NIL? Have you ever asked Dassault or Gulfstream that question? Most of us have.

How often do you have "compact snow and ICE" etc reported on the ATIS/Notams for a runway in the Northeast?? 70-100 days a winter in many places? Does this mean NIL braking action Hugh?...you're obviously a sharp fella, can ya see where this is going next?

How often is braking reported NIL? NIL shuts down any airport I operate out of...Always has. 99.9% of the time with Ice/Slush/Snow the reports and Mu indicates Fair-Good. Again -- when have you seen NIL? Maybe once or twice a year around here.....and nobody moves or lands.

Also again -AGAIN HUGH- (you with us?) Who ever said the landing distance would be shorter?? Of course I'd prefer TRs in the winter, who wouldn't? - and I'm really impressed you understand that it does not affect runways numbers - ya see, we all assumed everyone knew that from the start of this thread....welcome to page 6 of it. BTW - congrats on the basic ATP knowledge also.

Stay on track here with us here Hugh - Flightinfo can be a hard read, but we know you can do it pal.





:beer:

 

[gulfstreameric]

Yes, because people you know will be riding on our G550s?....

Does icy mean NIL? Have you ever asked Dassault or Gulfstream that question? Most of us have.

Stay on track here with us here Hugh - Flightinfo can be a hard read, but we know you can do it pal.



:beer:

That's why this is forum is a great disseminator from all those fools that tell you they know it all during the interview.

You can eliminate these toolboxes from ever getting on your plane.

Tx guys !

 

[Hugh Johnson]

I think the Refs are similar in all of them...I'd say 115KIAS is a good guess at lighter weights, maybe down to 110KIAS with 60-90min reserves??...none have high refs.

However, on an icy, windy runway I will take the GLEX or the G550 over the GIV brakes anyday....and all/any of them over the 3 engine Falcon due to the lack of TRs and the poor steering (relative)...

Also, if you want to get technical...there is not many runways you can legally land on in a Falcon when its icy. Always been a sore spot IMO....but really the plane lands and stops just fine if you have a brain in your head and a speck more of skill than the average Embrear pilot..... - its just something I keep in mind in the nasty months here in the NE. The newer Brake by Wire is much improved over older Falcons, but still.



Nobody can deny they are all great airplanes - A Gulfstream will take your furthest (is that good?) A Global is VERY comfortable, and none of them flies as nice as a 7X (IMO)...They should all pay fairly well (150k+?) and I'd fly any of them if the job was good. Hell, I bet I can even land them in crosswinds.

Reference above. You mention "icy" again and then TR's for landing performance. What airplane can you land on an "icy" runway. Define "icy." You can't use TR's for any landing performance, ever, unless you are a company like Southwest who did the engineering. Since you don't know this, you are ignorant. I again ask for your tail number so no one I know will ever fly on a plane you are associated with.

 

[BoilerUP]

You can't use TR's for any landing performance, ever, unless you are a company like Southwest who did the engineering.

Our old Citation II AFM contained a contaminated runway landing distance table in the Performance section that showed "With Thrust Reverse" distances.

 

[njcapt]

Reference above. You mention "icy" again and then TR's for landing performance. What airplane can you land on an "icy" runway. Define "icy." You can't use TR's for any landing performance, ever, unless you are a company like Southwest who did the engineering. Since you don't know this, you are ignorant. I again ask for your tail number so no one I know will ever fly on a plane you are associated with.

Sorry, you are wrong.

The DA-7X Performance Manual states in regard to operation on "ice-covered" runways:

The effect of available reverse thrust is not taken into account in establishing accelerated-stop distances, except on ice-covered runways from which take-off without the use of reverse thrust is not permitted.

The effect of available reverse thrust is taken into account in establishing landing distances.​

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Hugh,

Is English your primary language?

What airplanes can you land on an icy runway? really?...seems to me I dont recall just about every airport in the Northeast shutting down all winter when the ATIS blares "patchy thin ice and snow on all runway surfaces"...(note Hugh, it said "ice") you know, ice? - slippery frozen water.

You again copied my post, yet I'm still trying to see where I/anyone stated TRs can be used to improve landing numbers?

We are working with you here buddy, but you really aren't comprehending the discussion nor making any valid points....

 

[LegacyDriver]

You people are so f'ing stupid you're becoming an embarassment to the industry. The EMB has better brakes (computer alone has 100x the analysis rate of any Falcon), wider tires, 6'4" of wingtip clearance (vs under 3' for the 50/900/7X), better dispatch rleiability, reversers that stop better in idle than the 50/900/7X noisemaker/party favor does in full reverse, three times the rudder authority, four times the redundancy, at least double the nose-steering capacity/fidelity (and a way better--and *linear*--tiller plus footpedal steering), and an ABS system that shames any Falcon.......You don't have to be a physicist to examine the rudder authority, aerodynamic braking effect of T/Rs, and wing tip clearance to see the EMB absolutely rapes the Falcon in all areas regarding landing on a contaminated runway (with the exception of Ref speed).I don't give a rat's ass if u r Chuck Yeager.....the Embraer has at least a *third* (and probably half-again) the x-wind landing capability of any Falcon.Falcons are wimpy, twitchy, easily broken aircraft made in *France*. France people. You know. Those idiots who only know how to *lose* wars. Good f'ing grief. So kiss my a**.I'm gone.Goodbye losers. I'm sick of this stupid website and its....for lack of an equivalent term...race-baiting trolls.Embraer for life.Ef yew!!!!!!!!!