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Failed Checkride Poll

N5139

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Saw this on another board and think it would be informative in the majors section. Senator Lautenberg seems to think that a "one strike and you're out" rule for 121 operations is reasonable...

EDIT - I evidently can't figure out how to add a poll on this forum. So, for those at the majors, do you think a couple busts in primary training has anything to do with skill 4,000 hours later? How do we police our own should someone repeatedly fail proficiency checks?
 
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Ty Webb

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Often, the failure says more about the training than about the candidate.

Case in point- we had a few years at AAI where the failure rate for initial Upgrade was over 50%.

In 20+ years, I have never failed a checkride, but that doesn't mean I won't fail the next one, especially given the fact that in 5 years I have had zero training. Nothing but PC's.
 

donkeykong

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Saw this on another board and think it would be informative in the majors section. Senator Lautenberg seems to think that a "one strike and you're out" rule for 121 operations is reasonable...

EDIT - I evidently can't figure out how to add a poll on this forum. So, for those at the majors, do you think a couple busts in primary training has anything to do with skill 4,000 hours later? How do we police our own should someone repeatedly fail proficiency checks?

How bout the same standard for our worthless politicians!
 

Amish RakeFight

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The lack and variance of standarization (in testing) is incredible compared to other certification processes like the bar exam. Until this can be made to be more fair, it's not an effective way to gauge ones abilities. Certainly a pattern can be drawn from multiple failures, but one strike and you're out is highly unrealistic.
 

say again

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This is coming from someone who hasnt a clue about the aviation world. Not a good idea, IMHO.
 

Jetjockey

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How about one strike and your out, but you get to replace your Senator or Representative.
 

jws717

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Can you imagine the pressure on check airman. Fail a guy and, he loses his house and his kids starve. Better call security before the sim comes off motion.
 

N5139

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Here's a tidbit from CSPAN's archives:

SEN. LAUTENBERG: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. As we listen to the testimony and review the matters that got us to this point of concern and investigation, and we see that the captain of the Colgan flight had several test failures, I ask Mr. Babbitt, how many strikes put you out? Should there be a measure there that says, look, if we have to squeeze you through the test, what are you going to do when the pressure's on? And I think that there ought to be some finite limit that says, look, if you can't get through it in a couple of turns that you're not fit for this kind of a post. What do you think?

MR. BABBITT: Senator, it's an excellent question. Let me address it if you'd indulge me for a second. There's a couple of things to look at here. Number one, the regulations require and the carrier standards require training to a level of proficiency, and people are human.

They have a bad day and you could have a situation where a good pilot takes an excellent check ride. I've had situations in my own career, taking the check ride in parallel with someone and watch someone that I knew was a good pilot who didn't feel well, had no business taking the check; failed it. Is that, you know, grounds to terminate their career?

SEN. LAUTENBERG: Well, would NASA say if you want to go up in a shuttle that they give you a bunch of times to pass the test?

MR. BABBITT: Well—

SEN. LAUTENBERG: I hope not.

MR. BABBITT: Following onto that, we would take that pilot, the particular element that they failed and you'd would train them to proficiency. I think there's another human aspect that we have to look at. If we had, whatever the number is, one strike, two strikes, three strikes and you're out, remember the check pilots. We're raising them to now management hire/fire decision authority. W

e have someone who's giving another pilot a check ride, just the training check pilot and now somebody else's career is in my hands. If I fail this pilot, that's the end of their career. My concern would be that you might have the wrong reaction, that someone instead of saying, look, you've busted this portion, go back, get trained, come back when you get this right, as opposed to, you know what, I'm not going to end his career. I'm going to let him pass.

SEN. LAUTENBERG: Mr. Babbitt, I have great respect for you and the others at the table, but I would say this to you. I'd rather end his career than have my wife and my children on that airplane, I can tell you that. So I think, you know, these are things that we saw with the brilliance of Captain Sullinger -- (sic)—

MR. BABBITT: Sullenberger.

SEN. LAUTENBERG: --who took that airplane down past my apartment building, by the way, on the way to the river. I wasn't home then, but, you know, how do we know that the react time, that the training is sufficient as the captain did on the United flight that saved over 150 lives.

MR. BABBITT: Mm-hmm. -- (In agreement.)--

SEN. LAUTENBERG: And the thing, I think that picture of them standing on that wing will go down in history as—

MR. BABBITT: Yes, sir.

SEN. LAUTENBERG: -- an icon of what safety is about.

MR. BABBITT: Well, I wanted to add one other point. And your point is a good one, and I appreciate that, but there are mechanisms, and this is one of the reasons we're bringing everybody together. We have carriers today that have good practices, where they have training review boards and, you know, at the FAA you would look at two things. Is a particular pilot showing and/or exhibiting an excessive failure rate and is your training program -- maybe the training program itself.
 

fam62c

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We're one of the few professions that I can think of where we are constantly tested and evaluated no matter how much experience we get and how many trouble-free years/hours we have flown. I wish that the Part 121 environment would get away from a constant emphasis on testing and go to a recurrent training model where learning and practice is emphasized.

If you start ending the careers of pilots who bust a checkride or two then there won't be many pilots left. Nobody in their right mind would go to work for a new airline or bid onto a new plane at an existing airline because if the training program isn't perfected or is under increased FAA scrutiny and failure rates are above normal their career could be over.

What about GA busts that were 10, 15 or 20+ years ago? Should we start firing everybody in every profession who failed a class in college or got a bad grade? This will be just one more incentive for people to either not go into this profession or leave it. You're going to expect a young person to invest 80-100K in training and education when they know that one checkride bust will end their career and render them unemployable? They want the standards to go up while the pay, QOL, job security goes down and the stress level goes up.........why bother?
 

another cfii

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SEN. LAUTENBERG: --who took that airplane down past my apartment building, by the way, on the way to the river. I wasn't home then, but, you know, how do we know that the react time, that the training is sufficient as the captain did on the United flight that saved over 150 lives.

It's U.S. Airways, SENATOR!

How about a 1 strike you're out for our esteemed members of the Congress. One indecent exposure in public, One mistress caught by the media, One speeding ticket, One mispoken word that cause the public to squirmish...

Sometimes i wish they spend more time on their vacation...Oh wait, they already do. If that's what our taxpayer's money going, it's pretty pathetic.

Rant over:)
 

Tripower455

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What a moron...... He obviously has no clue about any of this stuff.

I've failed one ride in 23 years of commercial flying. I was pissed off, until roughly 60% of my fellow pilots were failing as well due to a certain, zero tolerance DE with a small crank (confirmed second hand from a FA who had been there).

It was my ATR type ride (my 4th type at the time). The ride was one of the best rides I've ever taken. I busted for going 60' below MDA on base to final turn, during a single engine circle to land NDB in the ATR sim. I was arguably in position to land, and the guy still busted me for the entire ride. This was nearly 20 years ago, and I still hate that bastard for the black mark on my career. I did the retest and passed with the CP, our POI and an ALPA guy in the sim at MY request. The DE was more nervous than I was.

The Feds were gonna yank our training dept out from under us because we obviously weren't being trained to proficiency. The DE in question was also the director of training for our company. He killed whatever chance he had for a career in the industry during his reign of terror at a small commuter, and currently resides in the "where are they now" file.......

We must not give morons like this complete control over our careers.
 

AC560

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We're one of the few professions that I can think of where we are constantly tested and evaluated no matter how much experience we get and how many trouble-free years/hours we have flown.

The testing though is very subjective at all levels of aviation (61, 141, 121, etc.) and the testers are highly biased in many cases (especially part 61 where $$$ is involved).

In spite of that we still have people who fail a lot of checkrides. We have a guy who flew by me. Private was a triple failure, instrument double failure, commercial qaudruple failure.

Checkrides need to be come less subjective, less biased, and have some consequences. I don't think 1 strike and your out is fair, but I also don't think a person with 9 check ride failures should be flying a C150 let alone a 747.
 

Paul R. Smith

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I have not failed a 121 ride yet but I have only been doing this for 10 years.

My dad had a 29 year career with Hughes, Republic and NWA and he busted his 320 ride...coming from 727s and dc-9s. That was his only bust in a long career. If this senator fights to make sure that folks like my dad lose their career I will personally set fire to his ass hair.
 

Champ42272

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Don't worry, if the government can fire a pilot for a busted checkride, then I'm sure we're far from the day that a doctor will be fired (by the nationalized healthcare system) once one of their patients die. After all, we wouldn't want bad doctors in the national healthcare system.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Champ42272
 

contrail67

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What a moron...... He obviously has no clue about any of this stuff.

I've failed one ride in 23 years of commercial flying. I was pissed off, until roughly 60% of my fellow pilots were failing as well due to a certain, zero tolerance DE with a small crank (confirmed second hand from a FA who had been there).

It was my ATR type ride (my 4th type at the time). The ride was one of the best rides I've ever taken. I busted for going 60' below MDA on base to final turn, during a single engine circle to land NDB in the ATR sim. I was arguably in position to land, and the guy still busted me for the entire ride. This was nearly 20 years ago, and I still hate that bastard for the black mark on my career. I did the retest and passed with the CP, our POI and an ALPA guy in the sim at MY request. The DE was more nervous than I was.

The Feds were gonna yank our training dept out from under us because we obviously weren't being trained to proficiency. The DE in question was also the director of training for our company. He killed whatever chance he had for a career in the industry during his reign of terror at a small commuter, and currently resides in the "where are they now" file.......

We must not give morons like this complete control over our careers.

Did you ever make it to a major airline?.....and if not do you think this stopped you? I doubt it did if you are on somewhere.
 

DrunkIrishman

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SEN. LAUTENBERG: Well, would NASA say if you want to go up in a shuttle that they give you a bunch of times to pass the test?

MR. BABBITT: Well—

What Babbit should have said was...

"Last time I checked, the space shuttle doesn't fly to and from the moon 5 times a day 10-20 times per month every month!!!! That is not a valid analogy Senator, perhaps you are not the best person to decide acceptable training standards since you cannot make a logical argument."
 

Colonel Savage

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Don't criminals get "three strikes" before they're "out"? What's with this terror campaign against pilots? Hasn't the fallout from outsourcing, 9-11, and eight years of TSA and the Bush Admin been damaging enough?
 
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