FAA Vacation

[JediNein]

Executing the wrong-doers does nothing to correct the chain of events that led to the mistake.
Was there a problem with ATC?
What there a problem with the flight crew physically or mentally?
Was there a problem with the equipment?
Was there a company-wide issue that needs to be addressed?
Was there a human factors issue, such as ATC giving a bunch of after departure instructions that are 99% of the time followed by "cleared for takeoff", but this one time didn't? (Just had this one happen, wakes you up if you catch it)

If you shoot the pilots first, you don't get to find out these things.

 

[Guitar rocker]

O.K. I'll modify my post...

Assuming that the facts as presented are correct...then

I'm not in any way suggesting that these guys shoud have their licenses suspended or revoked. But some people seem to suggest that $hit happens so that's it.

Likewise, I think that some people think that these guys should be crucified for their actions. I just dont think that should be the case. Im in no way suggesting that, oh well...it happens. Pending the facts, and if they are at fault, we know that they will get something placed on their file. In my opinion, thats good enough.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The law requires a landing in the touchdown zone... I am sure all of the FI experts have NEVER touchdowned pass that... but if you did should you get a letter in your file?

These pilots are really the only ones that really know what happened. Punish them and they will defend and justify thier actions... debrief them in a non discipline safety orientated way and they will learn and not repeat... in addition they show others how to do it it right....

are you guys starting to get it.. or do you still want to be unprofessional about this whole thing?

 

[Dash Power]

I believe we all can honestly relate that no one is/can kicking themselves in the rear more severely than...themselves. Wishing sever punishments for this particular action to these two fellow professionals is a bit near-sighted. If you have been in this profession for any respectable period of time you can understand how this happened. All of us have experienced something of this sort at some point of time in our careers.

This thread is an example of why the profession has deteriorated. Instead of looking for ways to crucify these pilots that are no different than you or I, we should be pointing out how critical our skills are and the importance of situational awareness to the entire operation. Instead we have digressed into which airline is better and who are worse pilots. Our esteem issues are costing us dearly.

 

[SWAdude]

Our esteem issues are costing us dearly.

Perfectly and wisely spoken.

 

[AutoBus]

So, how long do you think the involuntary vacation will be for the SWA crew that took off from SFO 1L last night after only being cleared into position? And yes, an airplane landing 28L had to go around at the rather, em, urgent request of the tower controller. I'm sure the NASA form was filled out before touchdown but I'd like to know if a NASA report will save you from one like this.

Must have been the last leg of reaallly loonnngg day.

Are you sure it was not just a South West High Speed Taxi?

 

[tubelcane]

No need for cheap shots Bus! Anyone who wants to frag these guys needs to look in the mirror. Can anyone here honestly say they've never made an uh-oh? If you can say that, I'd submit, you haven't been flying very like and you will someday.

At my previous employer I had an incident at SFO, it was totally our fault, but that airport has a history of "issues" shall we say. Not blaming anyone, just saying it can be a tricky airport, and none of us know what was going on with these guys/gals in the cockpit or the tower.

Whoever mentioned before about pos and hold going away may be on to something. Is it really worth having if it possibly puts folks in a tough situation every once in awhile? If the FAA really cared about safety this would be a bigger issue.

 

[waveflyer]

Our esteem issues are costing us dearly.

In more ways than can be thought... Again: perfectly and wisely said.

 

[waveflyer]

Maybe we shouldn't allow takeoff and landings on crossing runways? SFO would shut down. Guys- if we can't handle a position and hold-honestly- how can we handle a lot of things we do, much less look our company's negotiator in the eye.
SFO wouldn't work at all w/o pos and hold- they couldn't time the criss-cross. I completely believe in what Rez said- but i also think that if we want compensation as a professional- we need to allow our skill and talent to be used to make airports and our airlines more efficient. Maybe simply change the Pos and Hold procedure in similar way as we've handled holding short of a runway. Emphasize the takeoff clearance a lot more and we'd eliminate PAH issues. This would acknowledge the seriousness of safety issues, w/o dumbing us down to the lowest common denominator.

 

[snozberry]

I don't think any of us here have a right to judge this crew. We've ALL made mistakes in our careers, some have been small, some have been large. I do believe someone once said "Let he without sin cast the first stone." Our job as professional pilots are to learn from this incident and do everything in our power to make sure it doesn't happen again. As far as punishment goes, that's SWA and the FAA's job. Not ours. I know incursions are a hot topic with the FAA right now and I hope they don't use this crew for an example.

 

[ableone]

Unless you have never missed a radio call or made a mistake you should be leery of jumping all over this SWA crew.

Especially since there are easy fixes.

Centerline lights, or some other light system, that stays red until the controller extinguishes them come to mind.

Maybe part of a tower transmission was stepped on. This crap happens all the time yet the technology to keep two transceivers from transmitting simultaneously has existed for decades. (Google hetrodynes) The FAA has never considered it a priority.

Even if it was completely the SWA crew's fault what good does "punishment" do. Unless they were doing something reckless or inappropriate (i.e. messing with their cell phones, talking with the jumpseater about his vacation etc.) punishment will accomplish nothing.

I made a similar mistake on the same runway (there were other factors) and when the matter of remedial training was brought up I told the FAA that unless additional training could make me perfect and prevent me from ever making a mistake again, I failed to see the point. Amazingly enough they agreed.

 

[av8tor19]

What we're really missing is: who here has taken off without clearance? I haven't because anytime I have questioned it with the FO, I called on the radio.

So what you are telling me in this thread is that 2 guys missed a radio call?

I have read so many on this thread, "it can happen to anyone". It means that many more people will misinterpret a "taxi in to position and hold" and takeoff. Sad day for aviation.

Who passes for pilots nowadays. Some monkey that looks at lights?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What we're really missing is: who here has taken off without clearance? I haven't because anytime I have questioned it with the FO, I called on the radio.

So what you are telling me in this thread is that 2 guys missed a radio call?

I have read so many on this thread, "it can happen to anyone". It means that many more people will misinterpret a "taxi in to position and hold" and takeoff. Sad day for aviation.

Who passes for pilots nowadays. Some monkey that looks at lights?

You're my hero.....

 

[skiandsurf]

I have always said that there are 2 kinds of mistakes. One is that we can laugh about later, and the other is where others laugh at us. Lets keep it to ourselves.

Keep us off CNN (and the flightinfo boards).

 

[MINIME]

What we're really missing is: who here has taken off without clearance? I haven't because anytime I have questioned it with the FO, I called on the radio.

So what you are telling me in this thread is that 2 guys missed a radio call?

I have read so many on this thread, "it can happen to anyone". It means that many more people will misinterpret a "taxi in to position and hold" and takeoff. Sad day for aviation.

Who passes for pilots nowadays. Some monkey that looks at lights?

Let me guess. You have never made a mistake? Better yet, you will never make a mistake right? There are quite a few mistakes that argueably could lead to fatalities. Busted altitudes, not on glide, not on Loc, not on speed, not on TDZ, incorrect crosswind corrections, not on centerline, not well rested, not enough to eat and I'm sure there are more. So do you pass for a pilot nowadays?

 

[timmay]

Some of you guys crack me up with the professionalism and ALPA drivel. Let me ask this question what is the difference between a professional pilot and the average weekend warrior? I don't think its the ability to look like a snappy dresser in a uniform.

If you guys are of the opinion that this sort of mistake is ok then you are no better than a guy with a private pilots license. Think about someone from outside aviation reading this thread its actually kinda scary.

 

[BoilerUP]

If you guys are of the opinion that this sort of mistake is ok then you are no better than a guy with a private pilots license. Think about someone from outside aviation reading this thread its actually kinda scary.

We're not saying its okay; not saying that at all!

What we're saying is it does safety no benefit to string up any flight crew that makes a mistake.

Everyone, including professional flight crews, make mistakes; some are more serious than others. Even the most professional, cautious, situationally aware pilots are not immune from a boneheaded mistake. Professional flight crews should give their colleagues the benefit of the doubt in situations like this...

ASSUMING the events posted here are what actually transpired, what would YOU do to this crew if you were King FAA?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Some of you guys crack me up with the professionalism and ALPA drivel. Let me ask this question what is the difference between a professional pilot and the average weekend warrior? I don't think its the ability to look like a snappy dresser in a uniform.

If you guys are of the opinion that this sort of mistake is ok then you are no better than a guy with a private pilots license. Think about someone from outside aviation reading this thread its actually kinda scary.

You're dangerous!!

 

[gutshotdraw]

Wow. Didn't mean to stir up such a hornet's nest but then again, this IS Flightinfo.

Boiler, I can't say what was going on in the cockpit, what the crew's day had been like, or what was said after the changeover to NORCAL but I was number 2 for takeoff at 1L when the flight launched and the Skywest flight was sent around as a result. Because there was a loss of separation, the controller is obligated to report the incident.

What happens now is anyone's guess. I have always said that if you go into a FSDO and ask 5 FAA inspectors for an interpretation of an FAR, you'll get 6 answers. It probably depends on whose desk this report lands.

As I said before, the controller's handoff left some question in my mind as to who made the error. Which begs another concern. SFO is a level 5 facility and theoretically employs only experienced controllers. But given the labor unrest, accelerating controller retirements, and ATC funding issues, it is quite possible the problem was in the tall building, not the cockpit. I met a CSR at an FBO in Long Beach a while back who was leaving for Oklahoma City for controller school and then going straight to LAX tower for OJT starting on the clearance position, then ground, then local control. Even though a Full Performance Level controller will be watching over her shoulder, that's a sobering thought for any professional pilot and just a reminder that, to borrow a phrase, eternal vigilance is the price of safety.

 

[ableone]

What we're really missing is: who here has taken off without clearance? I haven't because anytime I have questioned it with the FO, I called on the radio.

So what you are telling me in this thread is that 2 guys missed a radio call?

I have read so many on this thread, "it can happen to anyone". It means that many more people will misinterpret a "taxi in to position and hold" and takeoff. Sad day for aviation.

Who passes for pilots nowadays. Some monkey that looks at lights?

So I guess your problem with a light system is that it is too simple for your macho pilot image?

Yes two pilots can miss a radio call or mistake a similar call sign for their own. They can even ask for confirmation and have the signals blocked.

You say you have never done it and imply you never will because you always question your clearances. Really? You double check every single clearance you ever get?

I bet that you only question the ambiguous clearances. Well guess what genius - the radio call you are absolutely sure about and never question is the one that is going to bite you in the ass.