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FAA to keep quite on new rest regs..for now

Lampshade

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FAA to keep mum on new rest regs..for now

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32648418/ns/travel-news/


The advisory committee on pilot fatigue was expected to deliver its recommendations to the Federal Aviation Administration late Tuesday. Committee members said the FAA had asked them not to make their recommendations public.
 
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JECKEL

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I think you meant QUIET instead of QUITE.

Just poken' fun!!!
 

Skippy

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its going to be quid pro quo-- something for soemthing---

we will get a 12 hour max duty day but a the cost of flying a max of 10 hours--- or some variant to be able to fly long out and backs-- watch-- thats exactly how it will unravel---- so what does that mean--- well it takes the 1st part which would require more pilots and negates it with the longer flight hours for a net of 0 pilots-- IE doesnt create jobs, prevent furloughs, or get people called back.

would be interesting to see though how it affects each carriers individual contract as it's written now it would go thru withoug a LOA---

hold on tight babitt is not as pilot friendly as we once thought-- thanks a bunch

SKIPPY
 

Lampshade

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For the majors you are probably right, but for the regionals it will open a can of worms if they include limits on the # of legs flown.
 

luckytohaveajob

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What about start times?

What about back to back night flying?

What about three man international trips backing up against other trips?

What about fatigue calls?

What about extensions because of ATC, weather, and mx?

What about being trapped on an airplane in a ground stop for eight hours?

What about reserve duty limits on call?

What about being released by scheduling and then reassigned?

MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT ATA. WE AS PILOTS WILL BE SCREWED BY THE FAA and ATA INFLUENCE. REMEMBER NTSB RECOMMENDATIONS- FORGET ABOUT IT! REAL ISSUES OF FATIGUE-FORGET ABOUT IT! CORRECTING A PROBLEM WITHOUT CREATING A NEW BIGGER ISSUE- GET USE TO IT!

THE FAA ROLLED OVER ON AGE 60-- YOU THINK THE FAA GIVES A HOOT ABOUT SAFETY? THINK AGAIN!
 

Draginass

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I think the ATA has bought and paid for another FAA administration. My guess is that the new rule making will be a bum's rush deal and will be favorable for airline managements, especially the majors.

I say that if the new rules don't heavily favor safety and stop management pilot pushing, ALL airline union groups should hold MASS and PROLONGED picketing in front of the FAA Headquarters and the DOT, complete with news cameras, etc.

If the FAA administrator won't take safety seriously, then we need to take it to the public, VERY publically. You can bet that the FAA has leaked the proposals to the ATA in plenty of time to get their approval.
 
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nimtz

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we will get a 12 hour max duty day but a the cost of flying a max of 10 hours--- or some variant to be able to fly long out and backs-- watch-- thats exactly how it will unravel---- so what does that mean--- well it takes the 1st part which would require more pilots and negates it with the longer flight hours for a net of 0 pilots-- IE doesnt create jobs, prevent furloughs, or get people called back.

The coast-coast day trip looks wonderful on paper. Problem is I fly out of EWR which means like JFK, if no third pilot then I'll pass. Any eastbound trans con after 4pm is bound to get f*cked with more times then not. Now throw on a looming duty time problem, talk about an added threat. Special thanks again to you JetBlue guys that so thought this a good idea you pushed for the waiver.
 

Draginass

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10 hour 2 pilot duty days are a very very bad idea, which a few stupid and greedy JetBlue pilots should be chastised for. To these guys it was ONLY about money for them and the profession be damned. Well, I think they should fight for a decent pay rather than screw the rest of the industries pilots.
 
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airlinepilot

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Not so fast!

its going to be quid pro quo-- something for soemthing---

we will get a 12 hour max duty day but a the cost of flying a max of 10 hours--- or some variant to be able to fly long out and backs-- watch-- thats exactly how it will unravel---- so what does that mean--- well it takes the 1st part which would require more pilots and negates it with the longer flight hours for a net of 0 pilots-- IE doesnt create jobs, prevent furloughs, or get people called back.

would be interesting to see though how it affects each carriers individual contract as it's written now it would go thru withoug a LOA---

hold on tight babitt is not as pilot friendly as we once thought-- thanks a bunch

SKIPPY

I talked with our Rep to the board several weeks ago. Alpa proposed an increase in daily scheduled flying from 8 to 9 hours. It lasted for about 30 mins of talk and then was buried. So it is still 8 hours max scheduled flying, 12 hour duty days with crew rest starting and ending when you get to/leave your hotel. 10 hours of crew rest at the hotel...min. The later the day starts the shorter the duty period (No more stand ups). Other areas: max 6 to/lds each day, max duty for 7 and 30 (hours for 7 and 30 remain the same). No rule for those who commute (unable to control it or police it).
 

Skippy

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well that does sound pretty promising-- but there is a reason nothing was let out of the meeting.

trust me the ATA will bitch moan and complain about cost yada yada yada-- and there will be some sort of compromise-- THERE ALWAYS IS---

but i hope you're right. those three man transcons could prob work-- but again the airlines would be pissed b/c they couldnt sell that first class seat the third pilot has to occupy!

SKIPPY
 

Citrusflyer

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It's politics. The committee draws up a plan to really deal with the problem, now the hard part. The politicians, industry guru's, and even the unions now start battling over their "A" list requirements. Give and take, push and pull, yada yada....

I'm not overly confident that the pilots will be the winners in all of this, but then again, when are we ever ... ?
 

rudder

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10 hour 2 pilot duty days are a very very bad idea, which a few stupid and greedy JetBlue pilots should be chastised for. To these guys it was ONLY about money for them and the profession be damned. Well, I think they should fight for a decent pay rather than screw the rest of the industries pilots.

There is no 8 hour limit in Canada. Guess what - it is no big deal. As a matter of fact, allowing same day round trip transcon or caribbean cycles is easier than a multi-leg high density airport pairing. As a result, these are the most senior trips in the system (21 days off per month). There is no empirical evidence that this has any negative impact on safety or crew fatigue. Nor has it ever been listed as a contributing factor in any accident.

Length of duty day/ duty day extensions/ crew rest/ max flight legs are all legitimate issues that should be reviewed and hopefully modified (our crew rest language is far better than the current language in the US). But this archaic 8 hour rule from a bygone era is nonsensical. I think that the east coast pilots just like the California layovers :)
 

JoeMerchant

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I talked with our Rep to the board several weeks ago. Alpa proposed an increase in daily scheduled flying from 8 to 9 hours. It lasted for about 30 mins of talk and then was buried. So it is still 8 hours max scheduled flying, 12 hour duty days with crew rest starting and ending when you get to/leave your hotel. 10 hours of crew rest at the hotel...min. The later the day starts the shorter the duty period (No more stand ups). Other areas: max 6 to/lds each day, max duty for 7 and 30 (hours for 7 and 30 remain the same). No rule for those who commute (unable to control it or police it).

This will make for far worse schedules for those who do the short haul flying. More 4 day trips and very few 3 day trips....More days away from home...Be careful what you wish for.
 

Draginass

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There is no 8 hour limit in Canada. Guess what - it is no big deal. As a matter of fact, allowing same day round trip transcon or caribbean cycles is easier than a multi-leg high density airport pairing. As a result, these are the most senior trips in the system (21 days off per month). There is no empirical evidence that this has any negative impact on safety or crew fatigue. Nor has it ever been listed as a contributing factor in any accident.

Length of duty day/ duty day extensions/ crew rest/ max flight legs are all legitimate issues that should be reviewed and hopefully modified (our crew rest language is far better than the current language in the US). But this archaic 8 hour rule from a bygone era is nonsensical. I think that the east coast pilots just like the California layovers :)

Using your logic, why have ANY rules at all? Just make it a crew call when they're tired. You sound like an ATA shill. I love the false logic that not having an 8 hour limit is better than multi-leg trips. Also, by your logic we'd have to have some body parts scattered all over a field somewhere which were directly blamed on tired pilots.

No thanks. "8 is enough." I have no desire to emulate the Canadians.
 

atpcliff

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Hi!

12 hours of duty is when things start to fall apart. I think 12 hours of duy, and 10 hours of flying would be a HUGE improvment, as long as it was coupled with the things they are talking about: Overnight duty starts are reduced to less than 12 hours. Multiple legs reduce the duty day. Duty starting and stopping at the hotel is brilliant! I would even say 13 or so duty hours would be OK if rest started and stopped at the hotel check-in desk, or equivalent.

Currently the FAA allows (I said ALLOWS) UNLIMITED duty days for -135, ridiculous reduced rest for -121, and, for -121 supplement extensions of the duty day past 16 hours if the crews "rested" during their 16 hours. They also allow UNLIMITED reserve periods for -121 supplemental and -135. Ludicrous!!!

PS-The Kenya Intntl rules require 11 hours MINIMUM rest, regardless. Nice!

cliff
NBO
 

General Lee

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A lot
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