FAA to keep quite on new rest regs..for now

[JoeMerchant]

I talked with our Rep to the board several weeks ago. Alpa proposed an increase in daily scheduled flying from 8 to 9 hours. It lasted for about 30 mins of talk and then was buried. So it is still 8 hours max scheduled flying, 12 hour duty days with crew rest starting and ending when you get to/leave your hotel. 10 hours of crew rest at the hotel...min. The later the day starts the shorter the duty period (No more stand ups). Other areas: max 6 to/lds each day, max duty for 7 and 30 (hours for 7 and 30 remain the same). No rule for those who commute (unable to control it or police it).

This will make for far worse schedules for those who do the short haul flying. More 4 day trips and very few 3 day trips....More days away from home...Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Draginass]

There is no 8 hour limit in Canada. Guess what - it is no big deal. As a matter of fact, allowing same day round trip transcon or caribbean cycles is easier than a multi-leg high density airport pairing. As a result, these are the most senior trips in the system (21 days off per month). There is no empirical evidence that this has any negative impact on safety or crew fatigue. Nor has it ever been listed as a contributing factor in any accident.

Length of duty day/ duty day extensions/ crew rest/ max flight legs are all legitimate issues that should be reviewed and hopefully modified (our crew rest language is far better than the current language in the US). But this archaic 8 hour rule from a bygone era is nonsensical. I think that the east coast pilots just like the California layovers

Using your logic, why have ANY rules at all? Just make it a crew call when they're tired. You sound like an ATA shill. I love the false logic that not having an 8 hour limit is better than multi-leg trips. Also, by your logic we'd have to have some body parts scattered all over a field somewhere which were directly blamed on tired pilots.

No thanks. "8 is enough." I have no desire to emulate the Canadians.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

12 hours of duty is when things start to fall apart. I think 12 hours of duy, and 10 hours of flying would be a HUGE improvment, as long as it was coupled with the things they are talking about: Overnight duty starts are reduced to less than 12 hours. Multiple legs reduce the duty day. Duty starting and stopping at the hotel is brilliant! I would even say 13 or so duty hours would be OK if rest started and stopped at the hotel check-in desk, or equivalent.

Currently the FAA allows (I said ALLOWS) UNLIMITED duty days for -135, ridiculous reduced rest for -121, and, for -121 supplement extensions of the duty day past 16 hours if the crews "rested" during their 16 hours. They also allow UNLIMITED reserve periods for -121 supplemental and -135. Ludicrous!!!

PS-The Kenya Intntl rules require 11 hours MINIMUM rest, regardless. Nice!

cliff
NBO

 

[FoxHunter]

Suggest we just buy the European model, neither the FAA, nor our Congress are capable of fixing the problem.

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=22

 

[General Lee]

Suggest we just buy the European model, neither the FAA, nor our Congress are capable of fixing the problem.

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=22

The Europeans also saved your job after you turned 60. No wonder you like them. How about you hit the golf course and let everyone else upgrade just like you did in a timely fashion?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FoxHunter]

The Europeans also saved your job after you turned 60. No wonder you like them. How about you hit the golf course and let everyone else upgrade just like you did in a timely fashion?

Bye Bye--General Lee

Even if I wanted to retire I would have to stay, knowing there were people like you around.:beer::laugh: BTW, I upgraded first opportunity, 16 years after DOH, and 8+ years furlough.

 

[wms]

I'm in favor of shorter duty days. But remember, that will mean either more days worked in a month for the same pay, or the same days at less pay.

 

[Spud]

I'm in favor of shorter duty days. But remember, that will mean either more days worked in a month for the same pay, or the same days at less pay.

Or more productive pairings...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Or more productive pairings...

That will be very difficult for those that do a lot of short legs...It will be hard to get close to 7 hours a day with many legs...

 

[CFI2766]

That will be very difficult for those that do a lot of short legs...It will be hard to get close to 7 hours a day with many legs...

Why is this the pilot's problem?

Barring something dramatic from the various labor groups, we still have the same MMG, same hourly rates; how would this be a cut in pay, from the MMG, anyway?

I'll agree with you that the part of the industry that will be affected the most by this is the regional side. Whether or not the regionals will be able to continue to exist will depend on whether or not they can renegotiate the agreements with their mainline partners.

 

[CFI2766]

Asked another way, what changes could/would management seek to reduce costs in the wake of fatigue rule changes?

I would comfortably speculate that all of the regional schedules are already at their most efficient, yet still compliant with labor agreements.

What else do you see happening to our schedules? Specifically?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why is this the pilot's problem?

Barring something dramatic from the various labor groups, we still have the same MMG, same hourly rates; how would this be a cut in pay, from the MMG, anyway?

It won't be a cut in pay....It will require more days away from home however to get the same number of hours. Do you want more days away from home? If you don't, it will be the pilot's problem...

 

[CFI2766]

It won't be a cut in pay....It will require more days away from home however to get the same number of hours. Do you want more days away from home? If you don't, it will be the pilot's problem...

Respectfully,

Joe, frankly, it seems you are showing the difference between a junior guy and a senior guy here. Of course I don't want more days away from home. However, I'm already regularly down to my contractual minimum days off anyway, while still making my MMG. Are you?

This being the case, I just don't see how these rest rules would negatively affect me. I'm open to what you have to say, but I just don't see it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Respectfully,

Joe, frankly, it seems you are showing the difference between a junior guy and a senior guy here. Of course I don't want more days away from home. However, I'm already regularly down to my contractual minimum days off anyway, while still making my MMG. Are you?

This being the case, I just don't see how these rest rules would negatively affect me. I'm open to what you have to say, but I just don't see it.

Do you ever plan on being senior?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I'm in favor of shorter duty days. But remember, that will mean either more days worked in a month for the same pay, or the same days at less pay.

How about asking for more pay based on duty. Most people get paid for the time they are at work. We work for free!

Do you get paid to look over the required paper work? Do you get paid to stand in security lines? Do you get paid to drug test? Do you get paid for ground school? Do you get paid to stick around and talk with maintanence when they ask you stay during the write up? Do you get paid when you are ground stopped and the plane has not pushed?

Every other hourly profession gets paid to do those types of things we do for free!

Pay for lost productivity with extensive duty rigs which provide the pay min pay per day, one for one duty pay, extra pay for graveyard shifts, extra pay for standing in security lines, extra pay for weekend, extra pay for holidays, extra pay for working in a more stressful environment such as training, extra pay!