FAA settles on CO Denver crash victims

[Toobdrvr]

Yes, but the FCOM advises against it.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Would the A320 let you do that in normal law?

Pretty sure the controls are in direct law on the ground.

 

[tico]

I always chuckle at the ones when he releases brakes and push the power up in a crosswind takeoff, he then mashes the yolk full forward and turns the wheel over 45 degree's. Like thats going to help at 5 knots ground speed... It's usually the same ones who cant flair without pumping the column at about 6 cycles per second.

Here is the problem and I see it frequently..power comes up, no forward pressure on the yoke and no hint of crosswind correction on the ailerons. Around 80 kts, directional control begjns to suffer and by 100 kts the nose wheel begins to get light. At 120 kts we begin to get nose wheel skip and any attempt to correct is just a guess and at vr the airplane gets hauled into the air like a sliding, skipping upwind wing high ugly duckling.
In the 737,with youre average 25- 45 kt crosswind the yoke goes forward and the aileron goes slightly into the wind mostly to remind you of wind direction and speed. As speed increases above 80 kts those inputs are adjusted to maintain good positive nosewheel pressure on the ground and positive down force on the upwind wing. Just prior to vr the nose down force is neutralized and smoothly turned into nose up force. The downforce is increased on the upwind wing so that so that the airplane lifts off wings level or slightly upwind wing low. With the gear coming up the rudder takes over and yaws the airplane into the wind and the ailerons are are relaxed. That is how a 737 is flown off of short, slippery runways with 25- 45 kts of crosswind.

 

[ackattacker]

Reading the report it seems he knew proper crosswind technique and used it right up to the point he got startled and just gave up and figured he was along for the ride. Moral of the story is you always always fly the airplane right up to the point the chocks are in.

 

[j41driver]

2nd moral...if all this xwind technique stuff quits working for you and you're headed very quickly for the edge of the runway...pull the power back and mash on the brakes.

 

[scoreboardII]

Here is the problem and I see it frequently..power comes up, no forward pressure on the yoke and no hint of crosswind correction on the ailerons. Around 80 kts, directional control begjns to suffer and by 100 kts the nose wheel begins to get light. At 120 kts we begin to get nose wheel skip and any attempt to correct is just a guess and at vr the airplane gets hauled into the air like a sliding, skipping upwind wing high ugly duckling.
In the 737,with youre average 25- 45 kt crosswind the yoke goes forward and the aileron goes slightly into the wind mostly to remind you of wind direction and speed. As speed increases above 80 kts those inputs are adjusted to maintain good positive nosewheel pressure on the ground and positive down force on the upwind wing. Just prior to vr the nose down force is neutralized and smoothly turned into nose up force. The downforce is increased on the upwind wing so that so that the airplane lifts off wings level or slightly upwind wing low. With the gear coming up the rudder takes over and yaws the airplane into the wind and the ailerons are are relaxed. That is how a 737 is flown off of short, slippery runways with 25- 45 kts of crosswind.

short slippery fields or even long slippery fields. I was commenting on dry fields under normal ops. I disagree you need to put the control inputs in before you start your roll, you fly the plane as soon as you need to fly the plane.

How is directional control suffering if you're using rudder to control direction at 80 knots? If that's an issue, the pilot has other issues. Nose wheel lifting or skipping before Vr? You have a CG problem. Lastly, last time I checked, crosswind limit is 35 knots, less with poor runway conditions.

 

[tico]

short slippery fields or even long slippery fields. I was commenting on dry fields under normal ops. I disagree you need to put the control inputs in before you start your roll, you fly the plane as soon as you need to fly the plane.

How is directional control suffering if you're using rudder to control direction at 80 knots? If that's an issue, the pilot has other issues. Nose wheel lifting or skipping before Vr? You have a CG problem. Lastly, last time I checked, crosswind limit is 35 knots, less with poor runway conditions.

45 i believe for us and you are right, as long as you remember to do it and do it correctly...I would rather see agressive control early and fine tuned near flying speed than the usual sloppy, half-hearted stab in the dark at 100kts. Your method works well and it sounds lime you have it fine tuned. Not so much what I see though.

 

[dicko]

Several years ago, I had a check airman at AT give me a real hard time because I used ailerons on the t/o roll despite the 25+ kts crosswind. He told me the we didn't have performance data for a t/o with one of the roll spoilers even partially deployed and the proper way to do a x-wind t/o is to leave the aileron neutral until rotation. Reeeaally? After some discussion at cruise, we ended up agreeing to disagree....

The AOM used to say that no more than 10 degrees of aileron deflection should be used into wind. The question was asked - 10 degrees of what ? Nobody knew. It certainly wasn't roll, since the airplane was still on the ground.

The AOM now states that small aileron corrections to keep the wings level. The Check Airmen was wrong on both counts. The concern is with directional control near V1(MCG).

 

[BEfly]

A lot of different techniques out there. All good ones. I think the point is , not giving up and letting the airplane fly you. I wouldn't call the conditions ideal but certainly not hazardous for a current qualified ATP. We've all flown in this stuff, it's not difficult, it's everywhere, some times in multiple cities in a day. To get a settlement after you run a plane in a ditch sets a bad precedent. IMO

 

[pianoman]

Here is the problem and I see it frequently..power comes up, no forward pressure on the yoke and no hint of crosswind correction on the ailerons. Around 80 kts, directional control begjns to suffer and by 100 kts the nose wheel begins to get light. At 120 kts we begin to get nose wheel skip and any attempt to correct is just a guess and at vr the airplane gets hauled into the air like a sliding, skipping upwind wing high ugly duckling.
In the 737,with youre average 25- 45 kt crosswind the yoke goes forward and the aileron goes slightly into the wind mostly to remind you of wind direction and speed. As speed increases above 80 kts those inputs are adjusted to maintain good positive nosewheel pressure on the ground and positive down force on the upwind wing. Just prior to vr the nose down force is neutralized and smoothly turned into nose up force. The downforce is increased on the upwind wing so that so that the airplane lifts off wings level or slightly upwind wing low. With the gear coming up the rudder takes over and yaws the airplane into the wind and the ailerons are are relaxed. That is how a 737 is flown off of short, slippery runways with 25- 45 kts of crosswind.

This. A little forward pressure drastically improves the steering effectiveness of the nosegear. Our company limits to 10 degress of control wheel input to avoid spoiler deployment. Checked it out one time on the DFDMU page to see where 10 degrees was. Seems to work ok.

I agree- gotta just abort if it's not working!